Not By Works
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False....you, like many, are conflating salvation with ongoing sanctification.......one is a one off with a present continuing result from a past completed action, is eternally secure and based upon the work and promises of Christ (justified, declared legally innocent) anything beyond that is the daily process of sanctification which is subject to obedience as well as successes and failure......the latter is applicable unto reward (misthos) pay and or wages........the GIFT of salvation is irrevocable <---look this word up.
You are either saved eternally or you are not saved and have not trusted into Christ...there is NO such thing as him GIVING because you FOLLOW......HE gives based upon BELIEF
HE that believes on the SON is having EVERLASTING LIFE <--You either have believed and are saved or you have not believed....
You are either saved eternally or you are not saved and have not trusted into Christ...there is NO such thing as him GIVING because you FOLLOW......HE gives based upon BELIEF
HE that believes on the SON is having EVERLASTING LIFE <--You either have believed and are saved or you have not believed....
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Thanks decon, we have one God, one Savior, one bible, etc. for a moment after reading this idea of the bible being in 2 categories I thought I was seeing double. Thanks for clearing up my double vision...
The bible is also divided into the OT and the NT. 2 completely different collection of letters. So for me to say that the word of God can be divided into 2 catagories, the law and the gospel of Jesus Christ, I hope you didn't think badly about me. The law refers to the OT, the gospel refers to the NT.
But you are right there is one God, one Savior, one bible etc.
From reading what "rightly divided" word of God meant to some, I was confused, because it looked like they were dividing the words of Jesus into 2 catagories. 1 catagory having to do with the law. And another catagory having to do with the gospel. And it also implied that words in the NT that has to do with the law can be ignored. And those words that have to do with the gospel is what we need to concern ourselves with. So it was a little confusing to me. That is why I asked decon, but of course he lays it on so thick, he smothers you if you have any difference in your beliefs than what he has.
Do you believe the O.T. does not contain the gospel?
Jesus said, "Search the scriptures, for they are they which testify of ME" <----was the New Testament written when he said this?
When Abraham said, "They have the law and prophets, let them hear them" <---was the New Testament written when he said this, which had the power to keep the rich man's brothers from busting hell wide open
How about Job, "I know MY REDEEMER liveth and I will see him with my OWN EYES AFTER the worms have eaten my flesh" Was the N.T. written when he said that?
How about David, "Restore unto me the JOY OF MY SALVATION" Was the N.T. written yet when he said that....??
YOU cannot divide them as you are....they are like the sights on a GUN....YOU cannot SHOOT straight without both the rear and front sights....THEY both POINT to each other.......and BY BOTH the full scope of GRACE and WHY is given....
That is the point I am trying to make.....
Jesus said, "Search the scriptures, for they are they which testify of ME" <----was the New Testament written when he said this?
When Abraham said, "They have the law and prophets, let them hear them" <---was the New Testament written when he said this, which had the power to keep the rich man's brothers from busting hell wide open
How about Job, "I know MY REDEEMER liveth and I will see him with my OWN EYES AFTER the worms have eaten my flesh" Was the N.T. written when he said that?
How about David, "Restore unto me the JOY OF MY SALVATION" Was the N.T. written yet when he said that....??
YOU cannot divide them as you are....they are like the sights on a GUN....YOU cannot SHOOT straight without both the rear and front sights....THEY both POINT to each other.......and BY BOTH the full scope of GRACE and WHY is given....
That is the point I am trying to make.....
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The gospel encapsulates more than just the death, burial and resurrection of JESUS.....and as I have pointed out numerous times the O.T. drips with scripture that points forward to the messiah while the N.T. drips with scripture that points back to Christ.........
O.T. saints looked forward to the----->Messiah/JESUS<-----The New Testament Identifies and points back to JESUS
Rear sights--------------------------->CROSS<---------------------------------------Front sights-->Together both = clear picture
The correct message is found woven together in BOTH...................................
O.T. saints looked forward to the----->Messiah/JESUS<-----The New Testament Identifies and points back to JESUS
Rear sights--------------------------->CROSS<---------------------------------------Front sights-->Together both = clear picture
The correct message is found woven together in BOTH...................................
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FAITH PLUS WORKS = ?/FAITH WITHOUT WORKS = ?
Prior to his “treatise” on faith James refers the readers to that which identifies sin in the life of the believer.He says:
“If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”(James 2:8-13)
Here James clearly points to the law as that which convinces(persuades) persons that they have sinned. Notice the elements of the law which are mentioned:
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not kill.
Where was it said and who was it that said the above?
“And God spake all these words, saying,”(Exodus 20:1)
This clearly points to the ten commandments as the royal law(Romans 13:8-10) and the law of liberty being referred to by James. Believers will be judged by this law and their transgressions will be severely dealt with if they have not shown mercy to others.
With this possibility in mind he ensures his readers understand our actions are the true reflection of what we believe. Notice previously he criticized the practice of believers(James 2:1) being partial and he now emphasizes the fact that even if we believe and do not practice that which is associated with that belief we have a faith that is dead.
As Jesus said:
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;”(John 8:31)
And Paul elaborated:
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”(Romans 6:1-6)
James states clearly our actions determine our state of salvation as he says:
“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”(James 2:14)
Can Faith Save?Can Faith Alone Save?Can Faith Without Works Save?
Notice he is asking about salvation.He says:
“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”(James 2:17)
“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?”(James 2:20)
“Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?”(James 2:22)
“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”(James 2:26)
Hence salvation is impossible without works and when he says:
“Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?”(James 2:22)
And:
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”(James 2:24)
He is simply confirming the example given to prove his point and the example was that of the father of faith Abraham:
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”(James 2:21-23)
N.B.The righteousness was only proven when Abraham obeyed the word concerning Isaac.(scripture was fulfilled)
James is not saying works are for others to see but rather, after looking at the example of Abraham he is saying/asking;You understand(Ye see,Seest) how by works a man is justified?
In effect,without the appropriate works we cannot be saved.Paul further confirms this when he says:
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."(Ephesians 2:10)
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."(Titus 2:11-14)
"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"(Romans 6:15,16)
We ignore these scriptures and gloss over and twist the plain teaching of the same to our peril.
Prior to his “treatise” on faith James refers the readers to that which identifies sin in the life of the believer.He says:
“If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”(James 2:8-13)
Here James clearly points to the law as that which convinces(persuades) persons that they have sinned. Notice the elements of the law which are mentioned:
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not kill.
Where was it said and who was it that said the above?
“And God spake all these words, saying,”(Exodus 20:1)
This clearly points to the ten commandments as the royal law(Romans 13:8-10) and the law of liberty being referred to by James. Believers will be judged by this law and their transgressions will be severely dealt with if they have not shown mercy to others.
With this possibility in mind he ensures his readers understand our actions are the true reflection of what we believe. Notice previously he criticized the practice of believers(James 2:1) being partial and he now emphasizes the fact that even if we believe and do not practice that which is associated with that belief we have a faith that is dead.
As Jesus said:
“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;”(John 8:31)
And Paul elaborated:
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”(Romans 6:1-6)
James states clearly our actions determine our state of salvation as he says:
“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”(James 2:14)
Can Faith Save?Can Faith Alone Save?Can Faith Without Works Save?
Notice he is asking about salvation.He says:
“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”(James 2:17)
“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?”(James 2:20)
“Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?”(James 2:22)
“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”(James 2:26)
Hence salvation is impossible without works and when he says:
“Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?”(James 2:22)
And:
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”(James 2:24)
He is simply confirming the example given to prove his point and the example was that of the father of faith Abraham:
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”(James 2:21-23)
N.B.The righteousness was only proven when Abraham obeyed the word concerning Isaac.(scripture was fulfilled)
James is not saying works are for others to see but rather, after looking at the example of Abraham he is saying/asking;You understand(Ye see,Seest) how by works a man is justified?
In effect,without the appropriate works we cannot be saved.Paul further confirms this when he says:
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."(Ephesians 2:10)
"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."(Titus 2:11-14)
"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"(Romans 6:15,16)
We ignore these scriptures and gloss over and twist the plain teaching of the same to our peril.
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U
Actually, salvation is only possible when one stops working for it. Salvation is a gift, we do not put God in our debt by working for it.
Paul is very clear...here is one to start
Roman 4:4 - 4:5
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
You have completely misunderstood James he is not teaching on the faith that justifies us before God, but the faith that must be evident to be justified before men.
There is an interloper voice in James so you need to be careful to separate out the interloper voice from James' response
Paul is very clear...here is one to start
Roman 4:4 - 4:5
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
You have completely misunderstood James he is not teaching on the faith that justifies us before God, but the faith that must be evident to be justified before men.
There is an interloper voice in James so you need to be careful to separate out the interloper voice from James' response
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You do the very thing I have warned about.And this is the the practice of everyone who teach as you do.All use the scriptures as the devil did with Jesus.Notice the encounter:
"And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple,and said
unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God." [Luke 4:9-12]
Scripture was used by the devil but Jesus produced scripture that regulated and put into context that which was quoted correctly but out of context by the devil.
You also gloss over the passage in James as you claim, "he is not teaching on the faith that justifies us before God, but the faith that must be evident to be justified before men". This is obviously false as James clearly asks:
“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”(James 2:14)
Can faith alone save him?He is speaking of salvation.Are you saying it is salvation before men?He did not ask;can faith justify you before men?Does anyone even need to be justified before men?As I also said:
"Hence salvation is impossible without works and when he says:
“Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?”(James 2:22)
And:
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”(James 2:24)
He is simply confirming the example given to prove his point and the example was that of the father of faith Abraham:
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.”(James 2:21-23)
He is not saying works are for others to see but after looking at the example of Abraham he is saying;You understand(Ye see,Seest) how by works a man is justified.
There is no contradiction between Paul and James but if you ignore the passages in which Paul speaks to the role of works in the life of the child of God then you will believe as you do.Here is a reminder of one:
"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"(Romans 6:15,16)
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You know, I always take issue with the words follow Jesus and sometimes I speak up, other times not.
We as His body or tabernacle as a picture, if born again is a temple unto Him. Filled with His Presence. Then baptized in His power to do the works of God.
We aren't sheep but are becoming Sons. Sonship is also positional as it's being worked in our lives so again...we aren't sheep following Jesus but one with Jesus, same as He was one with Father.
Israel is sheep. They follow the Torah, Old Testament "dabar". Never was indwelt.
We as His body or tabernacle as a picture, if born again is a temple unto Him. Filled with His Presence. Then baptized in His power to do the works of God.
We aren't sheep but are becoming Sons. Sonship is also positional as it's being worked in our lives so again...we aren't sheep following Jesus but one with Jesus, same as He was one with Father.
Israel is sheep. They follow the Torah, Old Testament "dabar". Never was indwelt.
There had to be law for us to fail trying to be as gods with the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. The dominance of ego made it impossible to Love: the religious leaders desiring control. Now we have trouble discerning the body of Christ in those who understand differently, this was magnified by the reformation, but obviously inevitable. Division are because of immaturity and desiring control. Not taking sides here, as some on both sides of the reformation think they are right and others wrong and few on both sides believe we are one in Christ: not saved by our understanding of Truth but by the Love of Christ. And as long as we don't become offended we will continue to grow in Love. Here the word offended is referring to rejecting the Holy Spirit as our help. So if we don't reject we will work in agreement with God under His influence: influence of God is the definition of Grace, obviously undeserved favor, but much more, always having the power we need to do the will of God as we walk by Faith. As whatever is not of Faith is sin: taking things in our hands again, considered dead works under law. If we don't walk by faith we are unbeliever, but end up bound by law, kind of like gravity, its severe if its a severe drop. I know I was rescued a couple times, once the Lord told me ahead of time: I wont let you fall. The Holy Spirit working through us is not considered works because Jesus finished the work and we could not have done it: we don't measure up. We Just follow having taken His Yoke, He lets us bear what we can of the sufferings of Christ to cease from sin: "He that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin." Is it work? I don't know, its more like ceasing from work and entering into rest, but it does say strive to enter into rest. This implying we have no other reason to strive (work) other than to cease from ourselves, and again, it's by the Holy Spirit and we follow bearing what we can handle, "Fulfilling what is left behind of the sufferings of Christ." The parable of Simon helping Jesus bear the cross: Jesus finished the work and is the Master builder, and we are labourers together with Him, that is if we desire a crown of Life. Not all believers get a crown of Life, not all are overcomers, some will be saved as through fire but lose their reward, will remain among the nations of the saved who walk in the light of the City of God.
Therefore, we CONCLUDE that a man is JUSTIFIED by FAITH without the deeds/works of the LAW
NO one ignores JAMES or ROMANS....and James is not teaching a faith plus works pseudo salvation........
NOT by works of righteousness which we HAVE DONE, but according to his mercy has he saved US
It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
James is making a contrast between a MERE belief in God and true saving faith and regardless of ALL that attempt to twist James into a working for salvation he is not teaching that...
PAUL -->before God a man is saved and justified by FAITH without the deeds/works of the law
James -->Before men, the ABOVE faith that saves can be seen by our works/deeds
NO one ignores JAMES or ROMANS....and James is not teaching a faith plus works pseudo salvation........
NOT by works of righteousness which we HAVE DONE, but according to his mercy has he saved US
It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
James is making a contrast between a MERE belief in God and true saving faith and regardless of ALL that attempt to twist James into a working for salvation he is not teaching that...
PAUL -->before God a man is saved and justified by FAITH without the deeds/works of the law
James -->Before men, the ABOVE faith that saves can be seen by our works/deeds
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you know, it sure would be nice if people proclaimed the Resurrection , the Blood, the Holy Sprit in us , manifesting the fruits of the Sprit as much as they do the Law, the Sabbath.
proclaim the thing that save and sanctify , instead of the Law, which was week.
just dreaming I guess, but it would be nice.
proclaim the thing that save and sanctify , instead of the Law, which was week.
just dreaming I guess, but it would be nice.
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