Obedience Required?

[Wansvic]

That is a false Gospel. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved is the true Gospel. And it is this obedience of faith that grants the gift of the Holy Spirit.

BTW is you fail to obey a single commandment, you have failed altogether!

Your claim is what is false.

Peter was the first to present the gospel after receiving the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost. There is no doubt when the 3000 listeners were added to the body of Christ. It was AFTER they heard and obeyed the instructions Peter gave as recorded in the scripture included below. Believing in the Lord Jesus Christ is far more than a mental exercise. If that were true, Peter would have responded to the question, "What shall we do?" by saying, Nothing! You believe in Jesus, you are good to go. He did not.

Upon rightly dividing the word it becomes clear that obedience to the NT commands bring about one's spiritual rebirth. (John 3:3-5, and Mark 16:15-16) Repentance and being water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sin are steps of faith the believer takes in association with Jesus sacrifice. They have nothing to do with the OT law.

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine." Acts 2:35-42

 

[Wansvic]

You are actually MISREPRESENTING what is clearly revealed and MISLEADING others.

As stated in the word, everyone is to believe and obey the requirements associated with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. How? Through repentance = dying to self; water baptism in His name for remission of sin = being buried with Jesus into His death; and receiving resurrection power through the infilling of the Holy Ghost. Period. That is not my opinion. It is what the word of God shows over and over. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16)

Those who refuse to accept and obey, by faith, the requirement to be baptized in water in the name of Jesus FOR the remission of sin maintain the stain of sin. (Rom. 6:3-6) In addition, one must receive the indwelling of the Holy Ghost in order to ENTER the kingdom of God. Jesus' words, not mine. (Luke 24:47, John 3:3-5, Mark 16:15-16...) Remember although Jesus paid the penalty for the sin of all mankind; few will actually take hold of what He died to provide. Jesus points out the consequences for those who accept, and those who reject His sayings:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:" Matt. 7

 

[Wansvic]

How can a person obey God if they have been held captive by the Devil to "do his will."

2 Timothy 2:25-26 says explains it perfectly:

Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will learn the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants."

Sequence of events:

1) God must first change hearts - learning the Truth follows
2) People are born into a Trap, the Trap of the Sinful Nature, a Curse implemented by God Himself
3) People who remain under this Curse are held intellectually captured just as a prisoner is captured and no longer possesses the freedom to exercise any sense of "free will"

My best . . .

Man is not void of the ability to chose. God has given each person freewill to chose between life and death. Jesus addresses this in Matthew 7:

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." Matt. 7:24-27

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Man is not void of the ability to chose. God has given each person freewill to chose between life and death. Jesus addresses this in Matthew 7:

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." Matt. 7:24-27

You have given me human wisdom (which is disqualified). Instead, can you explain the passages that I offered? Here they are again:

2 Timothy 2:25-26 - "Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will learn the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants."

Is this Scripture false? Is it not True?

 

[Wansvic]

The Gospel is all about Christ. That Christ is God who became sinless Man to die for our sins and rise again for our justification. And those who believe this wholeheartedly, repent, and receive Him as Lord and Savior receive THE GIFT of the Holy Spirit, THE GIFT of eternal life, THE GIFT of salvation. Those who believe are justified by grace through FAITH (Eph 2:8,9), not obedience to the commandments, since no one can obey all God's commandments perfectly in order to be justified (Rom 3:19-26). Read, study, and digest Romans chapters 3 and 4.

You accept the need to comply with the NT gospel requirements to repent, and receive the Holy Ghost. But refuse to accept Peter's instruction concerning water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sin. Why?

 

[Wansvic]

You have given me human wisdom (which is disqualified). Instead, can you explain the passages that I offered? Here they are again:

2 Timothy 2:25-26 - "Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will learn the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants."

Is this Scripture false? Is it not True?

I agree that the enemy does snare people into believing false doctrine. And it is God who provides revelation when seeds of truth are sown. However, a person has the choice whether to accept the truth once it is revealed. God does not force anyone to obey.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Natural men and women are required to take steps of faith that result in God bringing about their spiritual rebirth. It is only after being born again that God leads His people into all truth via the indwelling Holy Ghost.

Every natural man or woman must make the choice whether to accept or reject the reality of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. And must repent, and submit to being baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sin in association with His sacrifice. (Acts 2) Obedience to God's counsel is evidence of one's faith in action. (Acts 2:38-39)

The referenced scripture actually states God gives the Holy Ghost to those willing to obey: "Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." Acts 5:31-32

We are to accept God's word as written. Remember the age old trick of the enemy is to convince people that God's word doesn't mean what it says. It is due to this tactic of the enemy that so many "church" denominations exist today.

amen that is his one and only goal the devil actually understands if we believe what God said , he can’t get to us.

remember though it’s not a written list of regulations so you can also receive the spirit before baptism and then afterwards you would be inclined to be baptized for remission of sins

So you have this order

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,( our part)

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.( Gods resulting promise )

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38, 41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So you can hear about Christ and the gospel , get baptized for remission and then receive the holy ghost or

“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:42-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you can hear the word believe and receive the Holy Ghost and then be inclined or in this case commanded to get baptized for remission of sins

what the commonality is is they have to hear the word about remission of sins t be ugh baptism into Christ and believe it’s true that’s why both groups receive the spirit and why they get baptized for remission of sins they simply believed what they heard of the gospel

it’s the belief first and the hearing before that that’s going tomlewd us to act. Both groups were given the free gift of the Holy Ghost because they believed and both were baptized for remission of sins because they heard about getting baptized for remission and believed

if we don’t hear the gospel we can’t believe the gospel and if we don’t believe the gospel we can’t possibly obey it

in any case anyone who hears and actually believes these things will receive the Holy Spirit and then are going to need to start accepting and walking in the spirit

the first step being baptism for remission but there’s a whole life long path set before us after baptism the place of our new birth into Christ by his spirit

 

[Pilgrimshope]

What is the Gospel, then?

the good news of the eternal kingdom of God

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

However, a person has the choice whether to accept the truth once it is revealed.

Then those who are under the Curse of the Lord really aren't under a Curse after all. The purpose of the Curse is to cause confusion which renders a person completely incapable of pleasing the Lord. Of course, choosing the Lord would be a pleasing act, but no one can please God if they are under the Curse. It doesn't matter what good and Righteous things a person does, if their hearts have not been Circumcised by Christ, there is no Salvation. Salvation depends upon Jesus . . . not ourselves. You are not in control; God is in control. The Bible is more than abundantly clear about this.

Are the two passages below incorrect according to you, or are they correct according to God?

Romans 9:15-16 NLT - "For God said to Moses, "I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose." So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it."

God takes credit for our "choosing" Him. Are you intending to strip God of His responsibility and claim your good Work for yourself?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree that the enemy does snare people into believing false doctrine. And it is God who provides revelation when seeds of truth are sown. However, a person has the choice whether to accept the truth once it is revealed. God does not force anyone to obey.

amen if you force someone to love you it’s not love it’s been a choice since man consumed good and evil the choice then became good or evil then he set before man the law and made the choice plain

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s the same eternal choice by the gospel we’ve had eternal salvation and eternal damnation set before us we should choose salvation And stop telling ourselves we don’t have a choice that’s a deception and a powerful one

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s forever it will Outlast heaven and earth

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭

It will nOt change

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it will Give life to those who accept his word

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and it will judge every soul that rejects his word

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we have eternal life set before us in the gospel and without it we have damnation and the choice is freely and very much our own it’s why the gospel is sent to us all to give us the choice to choose Christ our lord

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

amen if you force someone to love you

Who states that God forces people to love Him? Be careful not to put words in the mouths of others.

 

[Cameron143]

No need to twist the truth or take away from what is clearly revealed in the word of God, as you clearly do. Those who accept God's word understand that in addition to belief and repentance, everyone is required to submit to baptism in water in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sin. (Acts 2:36-42; 8:12-18, 10:43-49, 19:1-6...) Obeying the gospel involves believing and obeying that entire message; and clearly not all obey the gospel. Also, being indwelt by the Holy Ghost is a necessary part of one's spiritual rebirth, and that takes place as God sees fit as promised for those who believe and willingly obey.

Being indwelt by the Holy Spirit is the cause of the spiritual birth.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Who states that God forces people to love Him? Be careful not to put words in the mouths of others.

lol actually I was replying to a brother who was Making the point that god doesn’t force us to choose it had nothing to do with putting words in your mouth

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Being indwelt by the Holy Spirit is the cause of the spiritual birth.

right but receiving the spirit doesn’t remit sins baptism for remission of sins does

 

[Rosemaryx]

I understand your position. I simply disagree with salvation that is grace plus anything. I believe faith alone is sufficient. I have attempted to support that position through scripture. I have given an answer for the hope that is in me. I'm never bothered that someone doesn't believe as I do. I'm content to plant and water.

Amen...

 

[Cameron143]

right but receiving the spirit doesn’t remit sins baptism for remission of sins does

Baptism is an outward sign of an inward reality. Just like circumcision

 

[oyster67]

And do you think that we have to be obedient all of the time?

We must try. We will not achieve perfection, but we can do our best.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Amen...

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-

if we try to make the term grace stand alone remove repentance and obedience from gods grace which Paul’s clearly stating there

it turns grace into this

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭

if grace tells us “ we don’t have to repent and obey God “ it is not Gods grace it’s the other guys version of grace

if grace means we don’t have to do what God clearly says we need to do for salvation it’s just a blindfold and isn’t going to save anyone

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Being indwelt by the Holy Spirit is the cause of the spiritual birth.

No. It is the Circumcision of Christ that leads to Spiritual Rebirth and Regeneration.

Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT - "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature." ... "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

It is time that "christians" discontinue side-stepping the True Gospel and acknowledge the Work of Christ.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Baptism is an outward sign of an inward reality. Just like circumcision

yes the Bible says baptism is for the remission of sins though I choose to believe what scripture says and establishes repeatedly

where in the Bible does it say it’s an outward sign ? Here’s where it says it’s for remission of sins

before the cross

“John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

After the cross

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭

baptism is according to the Bible something we do for repentance and remission of sins

now can you share those scriptures explaining it’s an outward sign of something ?