Obedience REQUIRED

[mailmandan]

Personally, yes.

Personally, yes to which statement?

Or conversion to Christianity.

No works demonstrates no faith and not faith demonstrates no conversion to Christianity.

None.

So, all ten are summed up in two?

You just said that obedience and good works were the fruit of salvation...so how do you figure one is using it to earn salvation?

Obedience/good works is the fruit of salvation but not the root of it. (Ephesians 2:5-10) One is trying to earn or merit salvation when they try to turn the fruit of salvation into the root of salvation.

If anything, they simply manifest salvation.

That acts of obedience/good works manifest salvation means that acts of obedience/good works are the visible evidence of salvation but not the cause of salvation itself.

Cause of salvation: God’s grace, through faith in Christ, not works.
Role of works: Evidence, fruit, and evidence of salvation.
Order: Salvation > transformation > acts of obedience/good works.

Yes.
It wasnt true while Enoch walked with God, or during Elijah's life.
Or while Jesus walked th earth.

I imagine there were others with faith in the living God, who obeyed His demands.

Which does not mean they never sinned at all. You disagree with scripture.

One exception breaks the entire rule!
Not all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

ONLY JESUS CHRIST WAS WITHOUT SIN.

They believed.
Their belief will not garner them anythign but eternity in the lake of fire.

Because their belief (James 2:19) falls short of saving belief in Jesus Christ. (Acts 16:31)

Many professing Christians will suffer the same fate, unless they have a real turn from sin.

So, only those who lived sinless, perfect lives 100% of the time (exactly like Jesus Christ) will be saved?

Yep, showing that belief alone, is worthless.

These false prophets/bad trees that bear bad fruit showed they lacked saving belief in Jesus Christ. (Matthew 7:15-23; John 6:40)

That is enough proof for me to write that sinners don't actually believe in Him.
Where is their fear of the Lord?
They may even espouse belief, but having sin on them disqualifies them from being "in Him".

How is claiming to have no sin or have not sinned and failing to confess our sins represent fear of the Lord? John says such a person deceives themself and the truth is not in them and they make God a liar and His word is not in them. Suffering from a terminal case of self-righteousness does not represent fear of the Lord.

Right, sinners are not known by God.

Saints are not classified as sinners because of the blood of Christ and not sinless perfection.

It reminds me of 1 John 2:3-4..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
Sinners don't know God.

Sinners are classified as unbelievers who do not know God. Saints are classified as believers who know God. What do you believe John meant by "keep" His commandments and which commandments?

It puts this thread in perspective too.
Why anyone would argue against obedeience to God, is beyond me.

I'm arguing against sinless perfection (1 John 1:8-10) and self-righteousness and not obedience to God. Big difference.

 

[mailmandan]

I glorify Him by keeping holy.
Those who want to trample the holy blood of Jesus, shed for us, will not survive the day of judgement.

You are sounding more and more like the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. Luke 18:9 - Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others/treated others with contempt/looked down on others: 10 Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[Roger316]

The eternal security crowd always seems to be arguing for being able to remain in sin while claiming they are in right standing with the Lord while they are engaging in sinful behavior.

It's almost as if these folks want to keep living in sin or something. It's always odd to hear them arguing for sin. Weird.

What do you think John the Apostle meant by "If we deny our sin?"

 

[carbunculus]

That's a can of worms but yeah, I'm on board

Yeah I know but I've escaped many worm holes before today, I know what mean
But I've got a huge mill stone in my windmill just in case