Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So? This link shows that gnosticism isn't Christianity.

Of course it's not. That's the whole point. But Christian gnostics (i.e., gnostics who have co-opted Christian ideas and terminology) think they are the true Christians. Same as it ever was.

 

[roaringkitten]

Back to the title of this thread:

Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

Let's make this simple. Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound. By the obedience of ONE shall many be made righteous!(Rom 5:19-20).

 

[thepsalmist]

How can you even make that statement when I spend so much time refuting their beliefs?

Thanks for responding.

Why do you keep bringing that subject up, though ... when no one here seems to be advocating Gnostic views - ???

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Thanks for responding.

Why do you keep bringing that subject up, though ... when no one here seems to be advocating Gnostic views - ???

I think I've demonstrated quite clearly that some believe exactly what the Christian gnostics believed. Let me share with you what someone said recently compared to what Christian gnostics believed.

CC member: "how we live our lives has no bearing on whether or not we keep our salvation ... We are holy, righteous, and sinless because that is what He is, and what His nature in us proclaims."

Christian gnostics: "[the gnostics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature."​

 

[thepsalmist]

Thank you - that explains alot -

I can't speak for the CC author you quote ... because I cannot be sure of what they mean themselves.

But for myself, I could say the same as the CC member above - and yet my meaning would not be the same as the Christian gnostics quote above.

I see where the misunderstanding lies, though ...

Thanks for taking the time to point that out.

 

[Chuckt]

I think I've demonstrated quite clearly that some believe exactly what the Christian gnostics believed. Let me share with you what someone said recently compared to what Christian gnostics believed.

CC member: "how we live our lives has no bearing on whether or not we keep our salvation ... We are holy, righteous, and sinless because that is what He is, and what His nature in us proclaims."

Christian gnostics: "[the gnostics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature."​

You can give it a rest because Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against His church:

Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

 

[roaringkitten]

I think I've demonstrated quite clearly that some believe exactly what the Christian gnostics believed. Let me share with you what someone said recently compared to what Christian gnostics believed.

CC member: "how we live our lives has no bearing on whether or not we keep our salvation ... We are holy, righteous, and sinless because that is what He is, and what His nature in us proclaims."

Christian gnostics: "[the gnostics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature."​

The CC user was specific by saying "He is" & "His nature" which points us to Christ twice there. The other quote hrftd attempts to use as the proof text does NOT point one to Christ but vaguely states "they are spiritual by nature". These two quotes are not the same, even if they may appear to be at first glance. It's a subtle attempt to smear grace believers. I would be more concerned that hrftd says:

That's basically correct, but I don't believe that we must do works. It's all about being led by the spirit and doing what it says. If it says to do something and we don't, well that would/could be a problem. But we most definitely MUST strive to refrain from doing sin.

Contradicting another post he made:

You must do the righteous work of abstaining from sin and doing the will of GOD in order to be saved.

As he contradicts Scripture:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" Titus 3:5

Hrftd has shown the board he is confused about salvation.

 

[thepsalmist]

A house divided cannot stand. Everyone is nudged from their fences of indecision/self-contradiction eventually ...

I pray always - the Lord's will be done.

 

[jasonj]

As much as I love grace, this distinction between self righteousness and righteousness does not exist in scripture.

Jesus is all about righteousness, reality from the heart, purity within, a sorted out life. The problem is there are people of all theological ideas who have impure hearts, out of which come things that make them unclean.

For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
Matt 15:19

Jesus time and again says clean the bowl on the inside. He is saying stop dwelling on evil in your thoughts. As Paul says

Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.
Phil 4:8

Blessed are the pure in heart they will see God.
Matt 5:8

The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
1 Tim 1:5

We come to faith because we accept we are sinners, lost, empty, broken in need of saving and a direction.
We trust Jesus to forgive us through the cross and remake us into righteous holy people, who dwell with the Lord.

Now however you put this, the aim is the same, to be and become like Jesus.

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
Rom 8:29

And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
2 Cor 3:18

This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.
1 John 4:17

This is walking in the Spirit, walking in the authority and power Jesus gave us through the cross.

This is spiritual thinking the way peter is looking at things. its not about our intellect, our behavior, and especially in my very Humbled and honest from "my true heart "...about OUR opinion, thinking or anything else. think spiritual thoughts, and you will then begin seeing Jesus Christ. In His name, always and everything we do is Jesus. it seems impossible to a "religious minded man" his mind is deceived. the deception at this point in Gods Word is "I , me , am anything at all"( man includes woman, and woman man...we are 1 all of us) think "the greatest commandment" The "body" of Christ" the Bride" of Christ. The Christ of God the "children" who believe in His 1 Son??? UNITY I have shouted it. when you are talking to another Christian, you are speaking to Jesus "think" spiritual. it will then Give you everything, by keeping your focus in Life on the one person in heaven or under the earth at anytime, who would choose to die in the body of His son, FOR YOU personally, your friends your enemies. keep your thought there in honor of Jesus... faith everyone.....DO, THINK, IN YOUR BEST EFFORT. TO BE LIKE CHRIST. if you make this one decision, and DO, APPLY. THE deception says ANYTHING OTHER THAN JESUS. this is why we are to "die" through Jesus. think spiritual. the deception is what religion has taught you what you ...think....YOU think" so don't think natural even though your natural mind says to. because you really truly believe, the enemy has not changed the letters, but our hearts are deceived, the kingdom is truly within you. its all happened in the natural, but then, it is spiritual truth eternal, because it is God the Creators word for us to actually do, he says it repeats it over and over, do the right thing, Jesus forgives, keep your hearts on Just Him and you will see everything, develop faith in Just Him and then.....AND THEN. set your hearts on Jesus and you are free.

 

[jasonj]

This is spiritual thinking the way peter is looking at things. its not about our intellect, our behavior, and especially in my very Humbled and honest from "my true heart "...about OUR opinion, thinking or anything else. think spiritual thoughts, and you will then begin seeing Jesus Christ. In His name, always and everything we do is Jesus. it seems impossible to a "religious minded man" his mind is deceived. the deception at this point in Gods Word is "I , me , am anything at all"( man includes woman, and woman man...we are 1 all of us) think "the greatest commandment" The "body" of Christ" the Bride" of Christ. The Christ of God the "children" who believe in His 1 Son??? UNITY I have shouted it. when you are talking to another Christian, you are speaking to Jesus "think" spiritual. it will then Give you everything, by keeping your focus in Life on the one person in heaven or under the earth at anytime, who would choose to die in the body of His son, FOR YOU personally, your friends your enemies. keep your thought there in honor of Jesus... faith everyone.....DO, THINK, IN YOUR BEST EFFORT. TO BE LIKE CHRIST. if you make this one decision, and DO, APPLY. THE deception says ANYTHING OTHER THAN JESUS. this is why we are to "die" through Jesus. think spiritual. the deception is what religion has taught you what you ...think....YOU think" so don't think natural even though your natural mind says to. because you really truly believe, the enemy has not changed the letters, but our hearts are deceived, the kingdom is truly within you. its all happened in the natural, but then, it is spiritual truth eternal, because it is God the Creators word for us to actually do, he says it repeats it over and over, do the right thing, Jesus forgives, keep your hearts on Just Him and you will see everything, develop faith in Just Him and then.....AND THEN. set your hearts on Jesus and you are free.

Think what Jesus thinks as you study His word. it is freedom to the glory and truth of God the Father...of Jesus Christ and His followers. that's us who say I am a Christian believe fully what God is saying to you in Hos word, think Like, If I DO this it will work.....FAITH

 

[jasonj]

Think what Jesus thinks as you study His word. it is freedom to the glory and truth of God the Father...of Jesus Christ and His followers. that's us who say I am a Christian believe fully what God is saying to you in Hos word, think Like, If I DO this it will work.....FAITH

remember what your savior and Lord said? "I am the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE." the question isn't whats written we all know it, like peter said. A pure heart is our goal in Christ "make what is in you the light" one name and then you are delighted in a pure worthy heart even if you mess up, repent your heart to JESUS, it will not fail and you know it wont. God bless you sorry for butting in, but people need to know so they can tell others n we can all Get Home who belong. Love each other, this is what God demands. do it in the only name worth doing it. you know this too

 

[JaumeJ]

Generally speaking I believe Iview the New Testament through the eyes of Abraham......... few words should suffice for the wise.

Sorry Jaume, but you have twisted hermeneutics here. You are viewing the New Testament through the eyes of the Old Testament.

We are supposed to instead use the revelation of the New Testament to view the Old Testament. So because the new covenant has been fulfilled by the blood of Christ, it is the lense through which everything was spoken. The Old Testament is not there so we can have 613 laws to follow. It is not even to be used as the basis of warnings to New Testament believers about how to live. The prophets were not speaking to us, but the people of Israel. By thinking they are speaking to us, today, you have taken their words out of context, and twisted it into something that God never meant it to be.

The Old Testament has a clear purpose. It is the history of God's people, before Christ came. The prophecies about Christ, show us how God fulfilled everything in the Old Testment through Jesus. The Old Testament is quoted so many times in the New Testament, because that was the revelation they had in the first century. It is inspired, there is no doubt about that. But it is not meant to supersede anything in the New Testament. And yes, I do believe God can speak to us from the Old Testament, but it must be viewed through the eternal truth of Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the law.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." Matt 5:17

You answered Grace's New Testament quotes with Old Testament quotes. That is backwards. Unless you are showing how those quotes point forward to Jesus Christ.

I do respect your faith and love, but you do have your theology backwards. We are not Jews, we are Gentiles, grafted into the vine. (Unless you are actually a Jew who found Christ, but even then, the New Testament needs to be the main source for your theology!)

 

[Angela53510]

Generally speaking I believe Iview the New Testament through the eyes of Abraham......... few words should suffice for the wise.

We should view the words of the New Testament through the eyes of Christ. We should also view the Old Testament through the eyes of Christ. As for Abraham, suffice it to say, he was the father of the Jews. And through him the whole world has been blessed.

But blessed because of Jesus!

I hope you can see the difference.

 

[skylove7]

It's Angela!!! xx Yay!
I gotta PM you lol

 

[JaumeJ]

The gospel of Jesus Christ was given to Abraham, and it is the same faith of Abraham by which we are all saved and are led to Jesus Christ.

We should view the words of the New Testament through the eyes of Christ. We should also view the Old Testament through the eyes of Christ. As for Abraham, suffice it to say, he was the father of the Jews. And through him the whole world has been blessed.

But blessed because of Jesus!

I hope you can see the difference.

 

[JaumeJ]

Please read and understand that it is the same faith of Abraham, who believed and obeyed God long before the law was given by Moses, by which we are all saved, faith in Jesus Christ, for Abraham knew Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit.

Gal 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed.

 

[JaumeJ]

If we then are the same as the sons of Abraham, do you not consider the gravity of teaching the Old Testament is
no longer valid. Everything about Jesus Christ, and His gospel, is contained in the Old Testament providing it is read without the veil of Moses. Even the Law points to Jesus Christ, the law and the Prophets.

We are the sons of Abraham in the faith.



Gal 3:6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.


Gal 3:7
Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham.

 

[JaumeJ]

May two posts above are from the New Testament, and they demonstrate that we are all sons of Abraham by faith, along with the Jews as many call them. The sons of Abraham are, in reality and truth, Israel.

 

[posthuman]

Theology is one thing, knowing the man is another.

both agree in the truth

But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out,
“Lord, save me!”
Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him.
“You of little faith,” he said,
“why did you doubt?”
(Matthew 14:30-31)​

 

[FreeNChrist]

Back to the title of this thread:

Obedience & righteousness - extreme grace version

Let's make this simple. Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound. By the obedience of ONE shall many be made righteous!(Rom 5:19-20).

There it is, thread closed.