Obsession with Confession (1 John 1:9, sin confession)

[KennethC]

No, I am saying it all needs to be taken in light of the change Jesus brought about through the Cross.

What change though are you speaking of because the Apostles Paul, Peter, John, James, and Jude all expounded on what Jesus taught and commanded. They did not do away with anything the Lord said but kept them in effect.

You are forcing a meaning into the text that does not exist. There is nothing there about forgiveness.

I am not forcing nothing into those scriptures for in order for Apostle Timothy to be an Apostle he would have to of repented of past sins and been baptized. Repentance is one of the immediate first steps of a believer.

Timothy is told he can become impure again do to sin and strictly told by Paul to keep himself pure.

How is that possible to become impure do to sin if future sins are automatically forgiven?
That would be impossible but Paul told Timothy it is not.

 

[FreeNChrist]

What change though are you speaking of because the Apostles Paul, Peter, John, James, and Jude all expounded on what Jesus taught and commanded. They did not do away with anything the Lord said but kept them in effect.

Is it really your position that there was no change from the old covenant to the new covenant??

I am not forcing nothing into those scriptures for in order for Apostle Timothy to be an Apostle he would have to of repented of past sins and been baptized. Repentance is one of the immediate first steps of a believer.

Timothy is told he can become impure again do to sin and strictly told by Paul to keep himself pure.

How is that possible to become impure do to sin if future sins are automatically forgiven?
That would be impossible but Paul told Timothy it is not.

Let me state it another way that may help you see it, there is nothing there about anyone becoming unforgiven.

 

[BenFTW]

Just as Apostle Paul also warned Apostle Timothy that he can become impure again do to sins........(1 Timothy 5:22, 2 Timothy 2:21)

I would like them to explain how Apostle Timothy can become impure again do to sins if future sins are automatically forgiven ???

1 Timothy 5:22King James Version (KJV)

22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

This is not saying that he would become in a state of impurity. You are reading that in. It is no more an exhortation for me to say "stay on the righteous path." Its an exhortation to stay away from unrighteousness, to keep himself pure. He has a witness to uphold and as such he is admonished to keep himself pure. The context reveals this. Just prior it speaks of rebuking before all an elder who sins, because there are certain requirements to be an elder (restraint, temperance). Its a matter of witness, and so Paul is urging Timothy to keep himself pure. Also it just a matter of what is edifying, keep yourself pure.

You are putting in this idea that he will lose his purity and need forgiveness, but the text doesn't say that at all. I would urge you, the same way, that you shouldn't partake in other people's sins. It isn't pure to do so. But purity doesn't save, Jesus does. Purity is good, but this isn't the means to salvation. Once again, Jesus is. Once you believe purity is a requisite to salvation you then make salvation a work.

 

[BenFTW]

I did not miss nothing because the way it seems to me is that you are trying to make Jesus teachings only refer to before the cross, and after the cross none of that He taught applies.

If that is the case how you think then it is not me that has missed it.

For even Apostle Paul and Apostle John shows that law is still in effect to those who transgress it, or that is wants to continue to live lawless lives. Continue to serve iniquity !!!

We are free from the law by walking in the Spirit (guidance, fruits), those who still continue to walk by the flesh Apostle Paul says is still bound under the law.

We are free from the Law because we have died with Christ.

Romans 7New King James Version (NKJV)

Freed from the Law

7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, whileher husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

You are putting the cart before the horse. We can only serve in the newness of the Spirit because we have been set free from the law. Not as you say, that we are free from the Law because we walk in the Spirit.

 

[BenFTW]

Is it really your position that there was no change from the old covenant to the new covenant??




Let me state it another way that may help you see it, there is nothing there about anyone becoming unforgiven.

Its pretty crazy that people don't seem to consider that what Jesus said was under Law, and applied to people under Law. He was addressing Law matters, even raising it to the full standard. Of course He said things that do apply to us, but its all about rightly dividing the Word, and paying attention to whom He is addressing. Especially when it comes to things pertaining to forgiveness, as the way to receive forgiveness changed after His death and resurrection.

 

[KennethC]

We are free from the Law because we have died with Christ.

Romans 7New King James Version (NKJV)

Freed from the Law

7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, whileher husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

You are putting the cart before the horse. We can only serve in the newness of the Spirit because we have been set free from the law. Not as you say, that we are free from the Law because we walk in the Spirit.

You need to keep reading in Romans 7 and continue on to Romans 8 because you can not have the proper understanding without both chapters.

Romans 8:12-16 shows clearly that if you still walk in the flesh you will face eternal death, but if you walk by the Spirit you are sons by adoption and children of God. For those who walk by the flesh are still under the spirit of bondage (the law).

We are not puppets that have no free will to still choose who to serve as you have sad, "we can only."

The bible shows a number of examples of those who walk properly in the faith for awhile and then fall away or depart from the faith. You seem to still think in how you speak that this falling away is impossible, but the Holy Spirit will disagree with you as He expressly says it can in 1 Timothy 4.

Romans 7 again is not speaking of Apostle Paul's current state in the faith, he is speaking on when he first converted and realized his sinful ways of the flesh. Romans 7 is about being carnal walking in the flesh, and Romans 8 is about walking by the Spirit. You can not do both and have eternal life, and Paul makes that clear.

 

[KennethC]

1 Timothy 5:22King James Version (KJV)

22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

This is not saying that he would become in a state of impurity. You are reading that in. It is no more an exhortation for me to say "stay on the righteous path." Its an exhortation to stay away from unrighteousness, to keep himself pure. He has a witness to uphold and as such he is admonished to keep himself pure. The context reveals this. Just prior it speaks of rebuking before all an elder who sins, because there are certain requirements to be an elder (restraint, temperance). Its a matter of witness, and so Paul is urging Timothy to keep himself pure. Also it just a matter of what is edifying, keep yourself pure.

You are putting in this idea that he will lose his purity and need forgiveness, but the text doesn't say that at all. I would urge you, the same way, that you shouldn't partake in other people's sins. It isn't pure to do so. But purity doesn't save, Jesus does. Purity is good, but this isn't the means to salvation. Once again, Jesus is. Once you believe purity is a requisite to salvation you then make salvation a work.

No I am not reading that into that scripture as the proceeding words before that is to not be a partaker in other peoples sins, meaning that if you partake in their sins, have yourself guilty of those sins to then you will be impure again instead of keeping yourself pure.

Plus you also did not address the other scripture given from 2 Timothy 2:21 that says if you cleanse yourself from the latter sins you will be a vessel for honor sanctified and useful and approved for every good work.

And just before that it says those that are God's are those who depart from iniquity (sinful ways/lawlessness).

 

[KennethC]

Is it really your position that there was no change from the old covenant to the new covenant??




Let me state it another way that may help you see it, there is nothing there about anyone becoming unforgiven.

Instead of answering you come back with a faulty statement that does not apply in what we are discussing.

Yes there was a change from the old covenant to the new covenant, but what the Lord taught and commanded in the gospel books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John was not the old covenant.

Those where teachings and commands new covenant believers are to keep and follow, and every single thing that the Lord said can be found upheld in Paul, Peter, John, and James writings.

What do you think the opposite of keeping yourself pure is ???

Acts 20:28-31 Apostle Paul shows that some disciples (not unbelievers) will be drawn away and not spared by false teachings.

 

[KenAllan]

1 Timothy 5:22
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people's sins; keep yourself pure.

You are misunderstanding in what 1 Tim. 5:22 really says KennethC.

The laying of hands by Timothy was the installing of officers in the ministry. This is not to be done suddenly to a new convert but to a person who has been a Christian for awhile. In the sins is don't compromise. If he was to suddenly lay hands on a new convert and that person went around not teaching the truth then Timothy would be a partner in those sins.

This is not about Timothy backsliding into sin.

This is a good example of someone like KennethC who really does not know what God says in the Scriptures. We are to STUDY the Scriptures to learn the Truth. Not make up our truth and pass it on as Truth from God.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Instead of answering you come back with a faulty statement that does not apply in what we are discussing.

Yes there was a change from the old covenant to the new covenant, but what the Lord taught and commanded in the gospel books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John was not the old covenant.

Those where teachings and commands new covenant believers are to keep and follow, and every single thing that the Lord said can be found upheld in Paul, Peter, John, and James writings.

What do you think the opposite of keeping yourself pure is ???

Acts 20:28-31 Apostle Paul shows that some disciples (not unbelievers) will be drawn away and not spared by false teachings.

Hmmm, okay. How are you typing having cut off your hands? How are you seeing having plucked out your eyes?

 

[BenFTW]

Hmmm, okay. How are you typing having cut off your hands? How are you seeing having plucked out your eyes?

Apparently Jesus was only joking but everything else he said was serious and applies to us.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Apparently Jesus was only joking but everything else he said was serious and applies to us.

Is that a joke?

 

[BenFTW]

Is that a joke?

Nope, haha. The Law was based upon works and perfection. Jesus was bringing the point home by showing that in order for one to even try to be perfect they would have to start mutilating themselves in order to stop sinning (at least certain sins). He is saying that it was better to enter Heaven an amputee than to enter Hell whole. Its an extreme example, but it plainly shows the requirement of the Law. Perfection. So if a particular sin keeps happening due to, example, your eyes then you better cut them out if you want to get to Heaven. The Law required perfection and if you failed in one point you failed all of it as a unit.

Of course we know that Jesus wasn't actually saying that someone could actually keep the Law by doing this. Only He can, not any man. Righteousness has always been by faith, in the old testament and the new testament. He was making a point, however, that if the Law calls for perfection you need to remove hindrances to that perfection. Thats the reality of the Law, it required perfection.

 

[BenFTW]

If you do not recognize that in 1st John he is writing to refute an adversary by contrasting them with true believers, you will never understand it. If you keep reading you will see he makes clear his confidence about those he is writing to, "I write to you, dear children, because your sins HAVE BEEN forgiven on account of his name." (1 John 2:12)

Thinking just now, how could John address people and tell them that their sins are forgiven if he doesn't know if they confessed them yet or not? Does He know they all went into their prayer closet and confessed their sins for repentance? I mean, if sin confession for forgiveness sake was true, how could John say such a thing to a congregation of people? How could he be playing God telling them they are forgiven if he is unaware of whether the people receiving the letter will have sinned prior to receiving the letter? Do you see what I am saying? Sin confession being for the believer and John saying what he said about them being forgiven is a contradiction and only reveals that indeed such confession was not for the believer as they are already forgiven.

 

[ladylynn]

1 Timothy 5:22King James Version (KJV)

22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

This is not saying that he would become in a state of impurity. You are reading that in. It is no more an exhortation for me to say "stay on the righteous path." Its an exhortation to stay away from unrighteousness, to keep himself pure. He has a witness to uphold and as such he is admonished to keep himself pure. The context reveals this. Just prior it speaks of rebuking before all an elder who sins, because there are certain requirements to be an elder (restraint, temperance). Its a matter of witness, and so Paul is urging Timothy to keep himself pure. Also it just a matter of what is edifying, keep yourself pure.

You are putting in this idea that he will lose his purity and need forgiveness, but the text doesn't say that at all. I would urge you, the same way, that you shouldn't partake in other people's sins. It isn't pure to do so. But purity doesn't save, Jesus does. Purity is good, but this isn't the means to salvation. Once again, Jesus is. Once you believe purity is a requisite to salvation you then make salvation a work.

LOL Ben, I keep reading your posts and wanting to give you reps but they won't let me since I've done it already. I'm always impressed with your understanding of grace and how you (at such a young age) have grasped and seek to rightly dividing the Word of truth. It is so lacking these days to see Christians (even us old ones) rightly divide the Word comparing scripture with scripture. It seems to be a fear for some to actually dare to read for learning-MORE, as it would possibly change their view and some think that is a bad thing.

So when I see it on these posts its very wonderful. Also FreeInChrist, another believer who knows the grace message!! and of course Willie-T., and the others who I wish could be HighFived for rightly posting the wonderful doctrines of Grace.
I do my best to 'like' and encourage you because grace is so misunderstood and not being preached in todays chruches. Standing up for the proper interpretation of grace brings a lot of misunderstanding and anger from others and can be discouraging on these forums. So keep up the amazing posts. They have really blessed my heart.

 

[ladylynn]

The answer is NO. No more than anyone else engaged in ANY sin has to stop before they are forgiven

The people at the foot of the cross, howling for Jesus' death still went ahead and killed Him even though Jesus asked God to forgive then while they were actively engaged in the act of murder.

"WHILE we were YET sinners, God did what?"

Wow!! AMEN to that Brother!!!! talk about words said at the right time.

 

[BenFTW]

LOL Ben, I keep reading your posts and wanting to give you reps but they won't let me since I've done it already. I'm always impressed with your understanding of grace and how you (at such a young age) have grasped and seek to rightly dividing the Word of truth. It is so lacking these days to see Christians (even us old ones) rightly divide the Word comparing scripture with scripture. It seems to be a fear for some to actually dare to read for learning-MORE, as it would possibly change their view and some think that is a bad thing.

So when I see it on these posts its very wonderful. Also FreeInChrist, another believer who knows the grace message!! and of course Willie-T., and the others who I wish could be HighFived for rightly posting the wonderful doctrines of Grace.
I do my best to 'like' and encourage you because grace is so misunderstood and not being preached in todays chruches. Standing up for the proper interpretation of grace brings a lot of misunderstanding and anger from others and can be discouraging on these forums. So keep up the amazing posts. They have really blessed my heart.

Nothing I can boast in, glory to God. Glad they are a blessing and people are being edified through them. I've been wanting to rep you too on certain posts but it says I have to spread it around first. Its such a hassle to give rep, lol.

 

[BenFTW]

Wow!! AMEN to that Brother!!!! talk about words said at the right time.

It reminds me of this image:



And people say God cannot forgive future sin...

 

[FreeNChrist]

Thinking just now, how could John address people and tell them that their sins are forgiven if he doesn't know if they confessed them yet or not? Does He know they all went into their prayer closet and confessed their sins for repentance? I mean, if sin confession for forgiveness sake was true, how could John say such a thing to a congregation of people? How could he be playing God telling them they are forgiven if he is unaware of whether the people receiving the letter will have sinned prior to receiving the letter? Do you see what I am saying? Sin confession being for the believer and John saying what he said about them being forgiven is a contradiction and only reveals that indeed such confession was not for the believer as they are already forgiven.

I do see what you are saying. It has always amazed me how we in Christianity have ignored the many passages that tell us of the forgiveness we HAVE in Christ Jesus, in favor of clinging to that one lone passage 1 John 1:9. Which if it means what folks generally think it does would absolutely contradict the overwhelming testimony of the NT to the contrary.

2 Corinthians 5:19, Colossians 1:14, Colossians 2:13, Colossians 3:13, Ephesians 1:7, Ephesians 4:32, 1 John 2:12, Hebrews 8:12, Hebrews 10:17.

All of those passages speak to the forgiveness that those in Christ HAVE. We HAVE forgiveness because we are in Christ in whom is our forgiveness.

 

[FreeNChrist]

LOL Ben, I keep reading your posts and wanting to give you reps but they won't let me since I've done it already. I'm always impressed with your understanding of grace and how you (at such a young age) have grasped and seek to rightly dividing the Word of truth. It is so lacking these days to see Christians (even us old ones) rightly divide the Word comparing scripture with scripture. It seems to be a fear for some to actually dare to read for learning-MORE, as it would possibly change their view and some think that is a bad thing.

So when I see it on these posts its very wonderful. Also FreeInChrist, another believer who knows the grace message!! and of course Willie-T., and the others who I wish could be HighFived for rightly posting the wonderful doctrines of Grace.
I do my best to 'like' and encourage you because grace is so misunderstood and not being preached in todays chruches. Standing up for the proper interpretation of grace brings a lot of misunderstanding and anger from others and can be discouraging on these forums. So keep up the amazing posts. They have really blessed my heart.

So true. It is so encouraging to see one so young who understands well what so many never ever come to understand.