Once saved, always saved. Chosen elect of God?

[Grace777x70]

Read the story of Charles Templeton if you dare. This is the story of a man who was saved and preached the gospel for years and lost his faith by believing evolution rather then the bible. He turned from God and never came back...it can happen.

You need to read what Ariel wrote about Templeton and his last days on this earth. He was calling after Jesus and saying he missed him. We can get screwed up in our minds and still have the heart intact - for it is with the heart man believes.

Perhaps Ariel can give us the quote again? I think it was Ariel.

 

[Grace777x70]

The scriptures clearly show, in more than the places I've itemized below, that this has happened from the beginning of the church and you might want to look up Charles Templeton on Wikipedia. He originally partnered with Billy Graham in great crusades across America and after many years recanted his faith.

1 Timothy 1:6
Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk.
1 Timothy 6:21
which some have professed and in so doing have departed from the faith.
2 Timothy 2:18
who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

None of those scriptures say that those people are now in hell. That is what we call "reading into the scriptures".

It is with faith and patience we inherit the promises of God. God promises peace in any situation. We don't add patience to our faith that we have peace and so we die without experiencing that peace that faith brings. Does that person go to hell now because their faith stopped and they didn't experience peace in this life?

 

[dcontroversal]

You need to read what Ariel wrote about Templeton and his last days on this earth. He was calling after Jesus and saying he missed him. We can get screwed up in our minds and still have the heart intact - for it is with the heart man believes.

Perhaps Ariel can give us the quote again? I think it was Ariel.

And not to mention the bible is very clear....After we have believed into the saving faith of Jesus and been saved, justified, sanctified (positionally in Christ) and sealed....

IF we believe NOT, HE ABIDES FAITHFUL because he CANNOT DENY HIMSELF!

 

[dcontroversal]

None of those scriptures say that those people are now in hell. That is what we call "reading into the scriptures".

It is with faith and patience we inherit the promises of God. God promises peace in any situation. We don't add patience to our faith that we have peace and so we die without experiencing that peace that faith brings. Does that person go to hell now because their faith stopped and they didn't experience peace in this life?

One of a few that I will not engage......not open to anything not hammered out on their own anvil.......of a private interpretation.......

 

[Grace777x70]

And not to mention the bible is very clear....After we have believed into the saving faith of Jesus and been saved, justified, sanctified (positionally in Christ) and sealed....

IF we believe NOT, HE ABIDES FAITHFUL because he CANNOT DENY HIMSELF!

I agree...

We have to keep 2 aspects in mind when interpreting scriptures on salvation.

Works-based believers see the warning scriptures and "interpret" those to mean that one loses salvation as in going to be with the Lord for eternity. ( and we should be admonished to listen to these warning scriptures )

This type of mindset does not know the love and grace of God for people and thus they can sometimes un-intentionally develop a fear based religion of works "to keep one saved".

1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

Salvation manifests itself here in this earth and also for going to be with the Lord because we are in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believed as Paul said in Eph. 1:13 ; 4:30.

Start shooting heroin in your arms today and you will NOT experience salvation - that is life and wholeness on this earth for very long.

Confuse the 2 and we will come up with all kinds of works-based salvationists views - like we lose our righteousness. We don't have our "own" righteousness. Christ Himself is our righteousness.

I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation because we are joined as one spirit with Him and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."

There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.

The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.

Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.

The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.

We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.

Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.

If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".

There is eternal salvation and there is a manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.

Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.

Let's just rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ to us.

We are safe in the Lord Jesus Christ and we can trust Him to do what He has He will do and has already done for us.

We have a great salvation in Him! We can trust the Lord when He said "I will never leave you nor forsake you!"

The proper teaching of the gospel of Christ and what He has already done for us will provide the "nutrients" for the new creation in Christ which has been created in righteousness and holiness to manifest His life in and through us - and yes this also shows in our behavior.

As we have received Christ our Lord - so we walk in Him - and it is all by grace through faith. Col. 2:6

His love which is in us will come forth and bear much fruit. The behavior is a "fruit of salvation" - it does not produce salvation. Only Christ Himself is our true salvation - it is "in Him".

 

[PennEd]

I actually do know such a person - but actually he is not single anymore - he got married after he quit believing - almost married a Muslim - So I will have to rethink if I know a single person who has stopped believing? LOL!

Good one Chester! lol

But the 2 elements of confessing AND believing are necessary, and since we can't see someone's heart we don't know if they truly believed or not. Except that Scripture says if they did then their saved.

Blessings to you and your family!

 

[Chester]

I believe more evidence in this thread points to it does matter how a believer lives after being saved. You cannot believe in Christ but keep up the same old lifestyle and keep salvation. That defeats all of the NT teachings on how to live a life that glorifies God. Why tell us all these teachings to live a Christ like life if it really doesn't matter how we live as long as we believe. Yes we have scripture to back both arguments, but when you add the 2 together you understand a Christians life must believe and improve or there is nothing keeping us from wanting to be better people if salvation is locked in. Maybe this teaching is why we have so many lukewarm people. Why try if salvation is locked in. Maybe this is why we have so many Sunday Christians that revert to acting worldly during the week. When put together you realize salvation comes from belief and how one lives as a Christian. Otherwise we wouldn't have scripture backing both arguments.

Amen, brother - I am right with you on this -- !!

But not all of my brothers on CC agree and so we will continue to talk, debate, and struggle together . . .

Until that great day in glory when the Lord finally tells us that:

"all of us saw through a glass dimly!" -- (but I think I've got one of the clearest glasses! LOL!)

 

[PeterJens]

What convinced me about this discussion is what believe in Christ means.

To believe is to trust them, their advice, their leading, their commands.
Jesus commands us to follow and obey.
He calls us friends.
As friends he says we will obey.

He says he will give us the Holy Spirit to empower us to obey and walk in
righteousness.

Paul says we put to death the old man and walk in the new man.
Peter says we know we know Christ because we obey.

In fact it goes so far to say, if you do not obey you do not know Christ.

It is pretty concrete, there is no other way, but to follow in His way, eating
from the tree of life and sowing to the Spirit, with an open heart, letting
pain happen and be healed and not walking in defence of the heart.

 

[Stephen63]

1 Timothy 4
​

1Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. 2These people are hypocrites and liars, and their consciences are dead.[SUP]a

[/SUP][TABLE="class: cye-lm-tag, align: center"]
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[TD]

Parallel Verses
New International Version​

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

English Standard Version​

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Berean Study Bible​

Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,

Berean Literal Bible​

But the Spirit expressly states that in later timessome will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

New American Standard Bible ​

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

The Bible needs no interpretation on this..... but I'm sure some will try because it doesn't fit their doctrine.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Grace777x70]

It is often a blessing to us when we read scriptures in context - which are the scriptures around it - like 1 Tim. 4:1-5

1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;

[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.

verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ and what He has done for us - who is the truth and the faith.

This not marrying and not eating certain foods is to keep yourself "separated" from others..it is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.

This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people trying to create their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort.

It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life.

.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ which is living by what Christ has already done by grace through faith alone.

Feed the Christian the true "nutrients" of the love and grace of God shown in what Christ has done and His life in us will bear His fruit in and through us to reflect who we are in Christ so that others can see the goodness/glory and grace of God towards them.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Well before church today I prayed that God would speak to me through the message and my preacher in some way for guidance and understanding in general.

I was not even thinking of this debate but right off the start the message started with a scripture from Romans. It hit me like side punch.

For from the very beginning God decided that those who came to him-and all along he knew who would-should become like his Son. Romans 8:29

We are not stressing a work based faith. Not at all but your faith should produce good fruit this is how we know we are of the Spirit. Bad rotten fruit but claims to love God is not how God planned salvation to be since the beginning of time.

Near the end of our service 1 Timothy 4:7 was given...

Keep yourself in training for a Godly life.

Why should people train if the prize has already been sealed. Why does Paul speak over and over to endure to the end and win the race.

The parable of the sower explains everything in Matthew 13:18-23
The Parable of the Sower Explained

18 “You, then, listen to the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word[c] about the kingdom and doesn’t understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the one sown along the path. 20 And the one sown on rocky ground—this is one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy. 21 Yet he has no root in himself, but is short-lived. When pressure or persecution comes because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now the one sown among the thorns—this is one who hears the word, but the worries of this age and the seduction[d] of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 But the one sown on the good ground—this is one who hears and understands the word, who does bear fruit and yields: some 100, some 60, some 30 times what was sown.”

Obviously people who do hear the word with Joy can deny the message of the cross. The evil one can also do some very nasty mind games if allowed.

 

[Guardian1970]

good stuff, I know once I was very close to God, then I fell away. It is written in the Bible in the end of daysthere would be a great departure/falling away. Falling from what? The truth? The church (spiritual). Therefore God? Then what happens, they reject God and return to the world? Let us put down these differences and rather encourage one another. Not to fall away. That we rather stay the course. To keep fighting the good fight. So that we encourage each other and keep one another close to each other and God. Least any of us a get drawn away back into the world and discouraged. Let's not find out if we can lose our salvation and work together as a family to keep it that way.

 

[Stephen63]

1 Timothy 4
​

1Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. 2These people are hypocrites and liars, and their consciences are dead.[SUP]a

[/SUP][TABLE="class: cye-lm-tag, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]

Parallel Verses
New International Version​

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

English Standard Version​

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Berean Study Bible​

Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,

Berean Literal Bible​

But the Spirit expressly states that in later timessome will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

New American Standard Bible ​

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

The Bible needs no interpretation on this..... but I'm sure some will try because it doesn't fit their doctrine.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Stephen63]

Sorry, didn't realized I posted that twice, lol

 

[Chester]

Sorry, didn't realized I posted that twice, lol

More than one way to have people see your post! LOL!

 

[stonesoffire]

A thought just occurred to me...of course once saved, always saved would be truth because that is what He promises to us. Salvation itself occurs at one point in time where we are faced with a decision. Then our life becomes a life of continually being saved or set free from our own mind, our old way of thought, and taught the mind of Christ. Which by the way, would be the tree of life to us.

 

[Stephen63]

It is often a blessing to us when we read scriptures in context - which are the scriptures around it - like 1 Tim. 4:1-5

1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;

[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.

verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ and what He has done for us - who is the truth and the faith.

This not marrying and not eating certain foods is to keep yourself "separated" from others..it is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.

This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people trying to create their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort.

It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life.

.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ which is living by what Christ has already done by grace through faith alone.

Feed the Christian the true "nutrients" of the love and grace of God shown in what Christ has done and His life in us will bear His fruit in and through us to reflect who we are in Christ so that others can see the goodness/glory and grace of God towards them.

What actually are you trying to say here? It seems to say these people are leaving Christ completely, losing everything. Is this what you mean? You writing seems vague to me.

 

[Stephen63]

good stuff, I know once I was very close to God, then I fell away. It is written in the Bible in the end of daysthere would be a great departure/falling away. Falling from what? The truth? The church (spiritual). Therefore God? Then what happens, they reject God and return to the world? Let us put down these differences and rather encourage one another. Not to fall away. That we rather stay the course. To keep fighting the good fight. So that we encourage each other and keep one another close to each other and God. Least any of us a get drawn away back into the world and discouraged. Let's not find out if we can lose our salvation and work together as a family to keep it that way.

I'm wit ya here. I would really like to set it aside..... but others only take advantage of this & mix their false doctrine in everything when we back off.

 

[dcontroversal]

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe<----Kind of like adding and mixing works in with this verse for salvation?

 

[Chester]

What actually are you trying to say here? It seems to say these people are leaving Christ completely, losing everything. Is this what you mean? You writing seems vague to me.

Yeah, really! I agree! I didn't follow . . .

I thought maybe Grace 777 no longer believed in OSAS! It seemed to me he was saying that if a person became a do-it-yourself - righteousness kind of person that they had fallen away from the faith (no longer Christians!)