Might as well say that Jesus is the Hotel California: you can check in anytime you like, but you can never leave.
Once Saved Always saved....Read this
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Might as well say that Jesus is the Hotel California: you can check in anytime you like, but you can never leave.
Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will be saved (future indicative) if you (future indicative) persevere." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, really saved, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."
The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah. And of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.
In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - "For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were believers. Notice that verses 2-3 make a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.
That would be the one that allows people to feel secure while doing the devil's will.
Those who are truly born again will not want to leave. Believers are children of God (Galatians 3:26) and new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and God preserves His saints. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
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roaringkitten
Guest
The one that denies the blood of Christ as sufficient to completely save someone. The hope we have is an anchor to the soul!
"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." Eph 2:13
"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" Heb 9:14
"That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec." Heb 6:18-20
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I think that most anti-OSASers do firmly believe in the blood's ability to fully save a person who holds onto the anchor.
I find the once saved always saved teaching to be a dangerous teaching. It can lead people to let themselves sin, believing they can repent later and everything will be a-okay.
I mean, if I went back to my old life, I know for a fact that I would be condemned. The bible tells us the sexually immoral and effeminate cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Same thing with a drunkard. If someone whos reaching out to Christ but lets themself go back to their old ways, we are told that the drunkard cannot enter the kingdom of God.
And actually, reading a chapter I had open yesterday, in Luke 12: 42-47 (I have it in NIV currently), Christ tells us that those who let themselves forget His coming, and let themselves slip into evil doing, that upon His coming He will cut them to pieces and assign them a place with the unbelievers.
So I do have a problem with this once saved, always saved thing. I believe a part of having faith is believing and following His word, not just believing He does exist. And Im not talking about slipping up and having to repent again. Im talking about literally walking into sinful behavior, living in sin.
I sometimes feel people take verses they like from the bible, but then ignore others to protect their own view.
I mean, if I went back to my old life, I know for a fact that I would be condemned. The bible tells us the sexually immoral and effeminate cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Same thing with a drunkard. If someone whos reaching out to Christ but lets themself go back to their old ways, we are told that the drunkard cannot enter the kingdom of God.
And actually, reading a chapter I had open yesterday, in Luke 12: 42-47 (I have it in NIV currently), Christ tells us that those who let themselves forget His coming, and let themselves slip into evil doing, that upon His coming He will cut them to pieces and assign them a place with the unbelievers.
So I do have a problem with this once saved, always saved thing. I believe a part of having faith is believing and following His word, not just believing He does exist. And Im not talking about slipping up and having to repent again. Im talking about literally walking into sinful behavior, living in sin.
I sometimes feel people take verses they like from the bible, but then ignore others to protect their own view.
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roaringkitten
Guest
You've said before, that the blood of Christ accomplished Christ's work on earth, but our work is not finished! Are these works you say that we must do to not lose our salvation, works of righteousness?
Im not HeRose, but I believe salvation comes by grace and not by works. But that does not give us the green light to do as we please, and that turning from Him to live in darkness, even when claiming to believe in Him, will lead us to condemnation. And the bible supports this as well.
Salvation is through faith, but if you are living against His word, are you being faithful?
Anen Dan....the past tense "gegonamen" you referred to is in the perfect tense in the greek and it is very important in it's meaning.
Perfect Tense
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect.
In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.
An example of the perfect tense is when Jesus said "It is finished".....selah
Perfect Tense
The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect.
In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.
An example of the perfect tense is when Jesus said "It is finished".....selah
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roaringkitten
Guest
There's no disagreement-this grace does not give us a green light to sin, and any professing believer that does so is being unfaithful to the Word. But since you are answering my quote can you tell me that the good works we do as Christians, do you consider these works as works of righteousness?
It is only in the knowing "certainly" of our salvation in Christ can we really be free to go on to "maturity". If salvation depends on us - we are in big trouble! Christ is our anchor...He holds onto us. We trust Him. Religion always gets the cart before the horse and thus their salvation depends on what "they" do. It's a D.I.Y.self-righteousness/holiness mindset and it is NOT the gospel of Christ.
1 John 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1 John 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
I do not believe that any of us are righteous. I do not believe that salvation comes through work, for we have all sinned, and sin leads to death. I believe salvation can only come through accepting Christ and what He has done for us, that there is no other way but through Him.
But using myself as an example again, if I had not left my past life, but claimed I had accepted Christ, would you agree that I was with Christ, and was saved? Knowing Im rebelling against His word?
Is that what John said? 1 John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
1 Corinthians 6:9 - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Galatians 5:19 - Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. *Compare with 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin..
Those who go back to their old ways (not merely stumbling, but remaining there) demonstrate they are not truly born of God.
Only unbelievers will be condemned (John 3:18) so what does that say about that servant of the master? The Jews were called the servants of the Lord (Isaiah 43:10) but that does not mean they were all saved.
Galatians 4:6 - And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
John 8:35 - And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
So was John confused? 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
That is a two way street.
C
Chuckt
Guest
The question is whether you have a "said" faith or a real faith. I can't tell if you believe or not. I think it is more likely that those who don't believe will be committing the sins you talk about.
As for the sins you mentioned in Galatians that say those who commit them shall not enter the kingdom of God, I believe Paul is talking about those under the law because those who don't believe are under the law and will not get into heaven based on committing those sins.
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Jesus was so clear that people could believe and be saved and He would heal them so that is why he spoke in parables and it is the same reason why our old bodies have to die is because corruption shall not inherit the kingdom of God and he wants people to not just simply believe but repent first as a step but not as a condition.
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roaringkitten
Guest
If you made a profession of faith, and you bore no good fruit, we have Biblical justification to believe that you are not saved(James 2:18). Your testimony would show man that you know not God, or rather, are known by Him(Gal 4:9)
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Chuckt
Guest
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
How many times will Jesus forgive you if you sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess?
If repentance saved then why do we sin again? If any amount of works saved then why do we sin again?
You can't answer that but the word of God says if we confess our sins, He is faithful (not unfaithful) to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Who is able to cleanse you from all unrighteousness? It isn't your works. It isn't your repentance. It says, "He" as in Jesus.
Is that what John said? 1 John 3:7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
1 Corinthians 6:9 - Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Galatians 5:19 - Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. *Compare with 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin..
Those who go back to their old ways (not merely stumbling, but remaining there) demonstrate they are not truly born of God.
Only unbelievers will be condemned (John 3:18) so what does that say about that servant of the master? The Jews were called the servants of the Lord (Isaiah 43:10) but that does not mean they were all saved.
Galatians 4:6 - And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
John 8:35 - And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
So was John confused? 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
That is a two way street.
Thats my problem with the idea, though. Telling someone that they are saved as long as they believe. It is true we are saved by grace through faith and not by our works, but Im not okay with telling anyone that they need not worry about what they do, because they are saved no matter what as long as they believe. If I know someone who is living as a drunkard or in sexual immorality, I would definitely warn them to repent, even if they claim to already believe.
(I do know a few people who steal, lie and use drugs and alcohol but claim they are saved because they believe in Him)
I do believe that turning to sinful living, even when claiming to believe in Him, leads to death. And that we should warn of the dangers of living in sin, and that we should be careful not to fall into sin ourselves. And I believe that I have Christ now, but I know that I am still tempted to sin. And I know the outcome if I give into that life again.
I will be the first to tell you I am a sinner : p
And I agree, we are cleansed through Him, and He forgives all our sins. But if you live in sin, and claim you are saved because you believe, have you repented to Him at all?
It is His work that saved us, thats true. But even Christ told us to repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.