Once saved always saved?

[BarlyGurl]

Well I noticed that list you presented to me and could not pick one of it's points was not your list. Was it from one of your 'teachers'?

YES as a matter of fact it was.... the list is compiled from the BIBLE.

 

[crossnote]

So what you are saying is.... you have some good arguments for a "few" scriptures but refuse to take the entire "LOAD" of scriptures aimed at your argument?
Ya know Crossnote... I think you are saved... I also think you are pretty LACKADAISICAL about the whole counsel of God and spreading the same. Remember it was YOU who asked for prayer for that "AH-HA" moment. How about you go over to the family forum and read the abortion thread and then read about how.... the same OSAS-Grace,GRACE,GRACE philosophy has "Christians" earnestly contending that it is okay to murder your unborn baby...there is grace for that.

So while you STUBBORNLY want to hold onto your PHILOSOPHICAL doctrine.... you are ignoring the resulting apostasy going on all around you... claim those people where never saved AT ALL.... shrug your shoulders and go back to rocking in your chair. When the TRUTH is the are many scriptures you leap over and ignore which plainly instruct otherwise.

SO how about you go sit down with my list and a BIBLE and figure out how the WHOLE LOAD fits neatly with your OSAS philosophy?

Let me go back to this. I do take the entire Scriptures in coming to my stance on OSAS.
Lackadaisical? That's your judgment call.
I asked for prayer, yes, why are you dragging that in here?
I hold to OSAS and am vehemently against abortion...you can see my views in the News Forum. BTW, your argument is a non sequiter.
Philosophical Doctrine.? I derive it from my understanding of Scripture, not man's philosophy. I could just as easily accuse your conclusions as philosophical.
Ignoring the Apostasy? Again, visit the News Forum I speak up there as well as here. Empty accusations again.
Rocking Chair? Infantile.
Leap over Scripture? No, I will spend the time with someone who is sincerely seeking, I don't have time to waste arguing with know it alls.

 

[crossnote]

YES as a matter of fact it was.... the list is compiled from the BIBLE.

And your definition of BELIEVE? ...SOURCE???

 

[crossnote]

Anyways...

Since we are sealed with the Spirit, do we get unsealed?

Since we are born again or born from above, do we get unborn?

Since we are seated with Christ in the heavenlies, do we get unseated?

Just food for thought.
Argue it with God, not me.

 

[psychomom]

big man

tiny God

 

[mailmandan]

Mail Man Dan:

Do you believe a believer can slander and accuse others falsely and be saved? Why do you not correct those who do not falsely accuse others here (Which is obviously a sin)? Paul says have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather, reprove them.

Which believers are you talking about? What kind of slander and false accusations are being made?

Also, you said, I quote:

"So you are implying that everytime a believer sins they are not fully cleansed until they confess those specific sins? Are believers lost all over again every single time they sin and are not cleansed all over again until they confess every specific sin? What happens if they forget a sin? I believe that John has in mind here a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing an forgiveness since what he said in verse 9 is IN CONTRAST to what he said in verse 8 - "If we SAY that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" AND verse 10 - "If we SAY that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."​

You can't ignore that 1 John 1:9 is IN CONTRAST with 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10.​

In other words, while we are in agreement on 1 John 1:10, we are not in agreement on 1 John 1:8. You believe that a believer will always have some type of sin in their life because if we way we have no sin sin, we deceive ourselves. But that is not what the passage is saying.

Do you say you have no sin? You have admitted that you have not overcome all sin, so why the continuous argument for sinless perfection which is not in harmony with 1 John 1:8-10? People who say they are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless 100% of the time are deceived.

This passage is in context to 1 John 2:3-4. For 1 John 2:3 essentially says that the way we can have an assurance in knowing the LORD if we find that in our life we are keeping His commandments. 1 John 2:4 then says he that says he knows Him (God) and does not keep His Commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.

1 John 2:3 - Now by this we know that we know Him, (demonstrative evidence) - if we keep His commandments. If validates that we know Him. By the way, to "keep" His commandments does not mean sinless perfect obedience to His commandments 100% of the time. The word "keep" comes from the Greek word tereo Strongs #5083 and means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve.

1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren against those false believers who thought sin did not exist on any level whatsoever. Hence, why John says we are to recognize sin by confessing it so as to be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9).

It sounds like you are describing Gnosticism, which John was all to familiar with. Not only did the false teachers walk in darkness but went so far as to deny the existence of sin in their lives. If someone never admits to being a sinner, salvation cannot result. This does not mean continually taking inventory of each specific sin that you commit as you commit them and confess each one to continually regain salvation after committing them and if you forget one you are toast!

Also, at the end of Romans chapter 6, Paul concludes a person is either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness.

Unbelievers are slaves to sin unto death and Believers are slaves of obedience unto righteousness.

Okay. So if a believer cannot stop sinning, how are they are slave to righteousness if sin still holds them captive to do it's will?

Slave to righteousness does not mean that you are sinless, without fault or defect, 100% of the time. Romans 6:14 - For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. You are so focused on "your performance" that you are taking your eyes off the cross. Take Christ and His finished work of redemption out of the equation and we are ALL slaves to sin!

It does not matter if me, you, or the guy next door has not stopped sinning. Men are not the standard. God's Word is the standard.

It's not all about us. Get over yourself. It's about Christ. Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

For you have to remember Noah was a preacher of righteousness while everyone else thought evil thoughts continually. The WHOLE world was evil and God judged that Noah and his family were the only ones worthy to survive who were not evil like them.

How could I forget this?

You are also basically saying that a believer does not need to worry about God leaving them if they refuse to confess and forsake sin.

When did I say that believers don't confess and forsake sin IN CONTRAST to saying they have no sin or have not sinned? Do you believe that "forsake" sin means sinless perfect obedience 100% of the time? In a different post (I believe it may have been in "The Sad Lives of Legalists and Sinless Perfectionists" thread), you said - "One has to confess and forsake sin in order to receive mercy (Proverbs 28:13). .... Forsaking sin means you turn away from it and that you do not abide in that sin habitually." Interesting. You say "do not abide in that sin habitually" but you don't like the phrase "does not practice sin" (1 John 3:9 - NAS) which basically means the same thing. The idea of practice is to perform repeatedly or habitually and thus describes repetition or continuous action. Paul uses the present tense which describes the practice as habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life.

I mean, have you read Proverbs 28:13? Who do you think it is written to? Would it not be redundant information if a believer were to automatically just confess and forsake sin in time?

Yes, I have read Proverbs 28:13 and 1 John 3:9 and sinless perfection is not in view and you have already admitted that you have not overcome all sin in your life so don't pull that card on me. You seem really quick to accuse other Christians of living like the devil and expecting to still be saved and little do they know they lost their salvation but of course you are living an almost sinless life so of course your salvation is secure based on your performance. It's sounds to me like you have some self righteous issues. Are you looking for credit?

Also, again, who was Matthew 6:15 written to?

I already answered this - http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ives-legalists-sinless-perfectionists-26.html

 

[KennethC]

Obedience/good works is the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of saving faith in Christ, but not the essence of saving faith in Christ and not the means of our salvation. I've heard many works salvationists error by saying faith "is" baptism, faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works." Faith is the root and good works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit at all demonstrates that there is no root. Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23).

Disobedience "is" unbelief or disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief? Do you believe that multiple acts of obedience "is" belief or is a manifestation of belief? If you say "is" belief then you are saying that faith "is" works.

Who said this disobedient servant was a believer? The disobedient are unbelievers. The fact that such a person is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean they were saved. The Jews are called the Lord’s servants, but they were not all saved (Isaiah 43:10). Who is Paul describing in Romans 2:8? Believers or unbelievers? - but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. You divide believers into two separate camps. Obedient believers go to heaven. Disobedient believers go to hell. Did Paul make this same division in Romans 2:6-10? No. Paul said everyone who does good (believers) everyone who does evil (unbelievers). Only two camps, not three. Jesus gives us two camps (not three) in John 3:18.

I have a question for you:

Are you another that denies the Lord Jesus own words from Luke 6:46-49 where He Himself says those that truly believe in Him (foundation of faith built on Him) are the ones' that "do" what He said ?

He also says in that same passage that those who does not do what He said do not have their faith built on Him, for He says and shows multiple times if you love and trust in Him you also will trust in following what He said. There is to much teaching from others that obedience is not needed, but obedience is the showing of a true born again faith in the Lord.

A constant continuous instructing of you don't have to do this, or you don't have to do that, when the Lord said we do is a sign of an unregenerated heart.

How can a person say you love Him and trust Him as your Lord and Savior, and then say you don't have to follow what He said ??? That boggles my mind that some who claim to be Christians say this constantly !!!

 

[KennethC]

And your definition of BELIEVE? ...SOURCE???

Lord Jesus own words in Luke 6:46-49 !!!

 

[KennethC]

Have you done it?

Have you chosen to stop putting your faith in the Lord?

Have you been saved?

And then un-saved?

Yes a grew up in a devoted to Christ Baptist background family, but when I got older I walked away from the church and the Lord to live my own life my own way.

During that time I was not saved and under grace and my life hit rock bottom for living how I wanted and not listening to the Lord. It was not tell I hit 28 that I got back into the word of God and realized why things were going so wrong for me. I then took and rededicated my life to the Lord and dipped into studying His word to understand His ways.

I am saved and do have the Holy Spirit in me who guides me in my studies, and I know this is true because even when I first started studying His word I was interested in prophesy but the Holy Spirit guided me away from that at first and told me learning the warnings to believers about sin that Apostle Paul gave is more important to know in this day and age.

After a few years of studying those warnings then I was lead by the Spirit in prophecy studies.

The bible makes it very clear that if you depart/fall away from the faith you are not in a saved state at that time as you are not under grace. You can not serve both flesh and Spirit and have salvation, and Apostle Paul makes this clear in Romans 8.


My life is a good example of the prodigal son who walked away from the Father, and only when my life hit rock bottom did I return to the Lord. If I would have never returned the bible makes it clear the ending I would have faced would of been, and it is not salvation....

 

[crossnote]

Lord Jesus own words in Luke 6:46-49 !!!

Do you DO ALL that he Commands? Though He is my Savior from my SINS, I have never claimed to be a SINLESS SON of His.

Are you born again? Are you sealed with His Spirit? Are you seated in the heavenlies.

Galatians 3:2-3 (KJV)
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

I'm resting in His salvation, His yoke is light. Sorry, if you are still slaving away.

 

[Elin]

Do you DO ALL that he Commands? Though He is my Savior from my SINS, I have never claimed to be a SINLESS SON of His.

Are you born again? Are you sealed with His Spirit? Are you seated in the heavenlies.

Galatians 3:2-3 (KJV)
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

I'm resting in His salvation, His yoke is light. Sorry, if you are still slaving away.

The sufficiency of Jesus finished work on the cross will never stop being impugned.

And we know who is the author of that.

 

[dcontroversal]

The sufficiency of Jesus finished work on the cross will never stop being impugned.

And we know who is the author of that.

Amen to that and he has his working for salvation disciples right here on this site.......

 

[Grandpa]

Yes a grew up in a devoted to Christ Baptist background family, but when I got older I walked away from the church and the Lord to live my own life my own way.

During that time I was not saved and under grace and my life hit rock bottom for living how I wanted and not listening to the Lord. It was not tell I hit 28 that I got back into the word of God and realized why things were going so wrong for me. I then took and rededicated my life to the Lord and dipped into studying His word to understand His ways.

I am saved and do have the Holy Spirit in me who guides me in my studies, and I know this is true because even when I first started studying His word I was interested in prophesy but the Holy Spirit guided me away from that at first and told me learning the warnings to believers about sin that Apostle Paul gave is more important to know in this day and age.

After a few years of studying those warnings then I was lead by the Spirit in prophecy studies.

The bible makes it very clear that if you depart/fall away from the faith you are not in a saved state at that time as you are not under grace. You can not serve both flesh and Spirit and have salvation, and Apostle Paul makes this clear in Romans 8.


My life is a good example of the prodigal son who walked away from the Father, and only when my life hit rock bottom did I return to the Lord. If I would have never returned the bible makes it clear the ending I would have faced would of been, and it is not salvation....

When you were saved the first time, who told you that you were saved?

When you became unsaved, who told you that you were unsaved?

And then when you became saved the second time, who told you that you were re-saved?

Could you show in the bible other examples of your experience of being saved, then unsaved, then re-saved?

 

[dcontroversal]

When you were saved the first time, who told you that you were saved?

When you became unsaved, who told you that you were unsaved?

And then when you became saved the second time, who told you that you were re-saved?

Could you show in the bible other examples of your experience of being saved, then unsaved, then re-saved?

Don't worry...even though there is not one account of that anywhere in the bible he will twist a few scriptures into a pretzel to prove his points....!

 

[Grandpa]

big man

tiny God

That's not my testimony.

I don't think that would be Paul's testimony.

Whose testimony will it be?

 

[wattie]

Here is another crux of the matter thing:

How many posters in this christian forum have trouble with looking at internet pornography? Maybe even serious trouble?

I would imagine a significant amount would.

Now .. are you guys who are all saying salvation can be lossed.. going to say.. all these people have lossed salvation?

I don't think you would. But maybe you might say.. 'maybe they were never saved in the first place' or
'if they really are seriously committing that sin.. they will lose salvation'

NEITHER are true for a saved person who has trouble with that sin!

They WERE saved in the first place

They will be disciplined and rebuked.. kicked in the pants by Jesus for pursing that sin.. but they won't lose the fact that Christ has paid for their sin!

Now there may be some people.. in fact there probably are.. who think they are christian but actually never got converted in the first place..I don't mean them.

But you see ..

This is the crux.

There will be a whole lot of people posting in here who believe as Kenneth and Jason do.. who have trouble with internet porn.

What is your message to them?

You are going down!

OR

You have the Holy Spirit in your soul.. therefore.. think on that.. meditate on Him and not on the sin.

 

[KennethC]

Do you DO ALL that he Commands? Though He is my Savior from my SINS, I have never claimed to be a SINLESS SON of His.

Are you born again? Are you sealed with His Spirit? Are you seated in the heavenlies.

Galatians 3:2-3 (KJV)
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

I'm resting in His salvation, His yoke is light. Sorry, if you are still slaving away.

First when have I ever claimed to be sinless ???

I thank you have me confused with Jason because I am not a sinless perfectionist believer, but I do believe by the Holy Spirit we will be guided and learn to sin less and less. I know because thanks be to the Holy Spirits guidance I have learned self-control and put away some sins that I know longer do.

I still struggle at times but the Spirit is making me stronger in those areas that I am weak.

Then there you go again using a scripture that speaks about the Mosaic written ordinances in Galatians, but what Jesus taught and commanded in the gospel books is not the law being spoke about there. Learn and understand the difference between the scriptures speaking on the Mosaic law and the others speaking on Christ perfect law of liberty done by faith in Him.

The yoke is light because the Holy Spirit makes it easy for us to walk in His ways, and we who are born again do not find His commands burdensome.

I am saved and born again as the Holy Spirit is the one that guides my walk, study, and knowledge in His word.

Have you in your endeavor in the faith ever been taught on the Great Commission, and if so what is the two major commands given there ???

 

[KennethC]

When you were saved the first time, who told you that you were saved?

When you became unsaved, who told you that you were unsaved?

And then when you became saved the second time, who told you that you were re-saved?

Could you show in the bible other examples of your experience of being saved, then unsaved, then re-saved?

The word of God this as it was shown to me that I needed to repent and turn back to the Lord to be under grace again.
Apostle Paul told the Galatians the same thing when they left the gospel of Christ to seek out justification by the law, he told them they have fallen from grace and Christ's remission (blood) was no longer any affect to them.

The prodigal son, lost sheep, Galatians, James 5:19-20, Colossians 1:22-23, and Romans 11:19-22 just to name a few places where the scriptures show those who walked away were/will not saved while in that state.

 

[KennethC]

Don't worry...even though there is not one account of that anywhere in the bible he will twist a few scriptures into a pretzel to prove his points....!

Wrong there is a number of scriptures in the bible that speak on believers falling away, departing, and not continuing in the faith, and each one of them does not say those who do this end up with eternal life.

 

[KennethC]

Here is another crux of the matter thing:

How many posters in this christian forum have trouble with looking at internet pornography? Maybe even serious trouble?

I would imagine a significant amount would.

Now .. are you guys who are all saying salvation can be lossed.. going to say.. all these people have lossed salvation?

I don't think you would. But maybe you might say.. 'maybe they were never saved in the first place' or
'if they really are seriously committing that sin.. they will lose salvation'

NEITHER are true for a saved person who has trouble with that sin!

They WERE saved in the first place

They will be disciplined and rebuked.. kicked in the pants by Jesus for pursing that sin.. but they won't lose the fact that Christ has paid for their sin!

Now there may be some people.. in fact there probably are.. who think they are christian but actually never got converted in the first place..I don't mean them.

But you see ..

This is the crux.

There will be a whole lot of people posting in here who believe as Kenneth and Jason do.. who have trouble with internet porn.

What is your message to them?

You are going down!

OR

You have the Holy Spirit in your soul.. therefore.. think on that.. meditate on Him and not on the sin.

Well first you must ask them if they are trying to stop watching in but still struggling, and if so then no they are still headed to salvation and need to continue to let the Holy Spirit help them to turn from that sin.

If however they are deliberately continuing to watch it with no attempt to quit then that is another subject matter as the bible clearly says and shows those are trampling on the Son of God underfoot, and will stand in front of God at judgment and face the fiery indignation.

So you see there is no crux at all because the bible says and shows the difference is trying and struggling to stop verses deliberate willful sinning !!!

P.S. - I do not agree with sinless perfectionism for salvation !!!