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I like this question, because I think it goes to the heart of what we are as people and in relationship to the Father.
The law or rules are concepts defined in words outside ourselves which we can talk about.
We are built for relationship and communion with others and with the Lord. It is these things that drive our hearts and our walk. Jesus is saying if you have communion with me, your heart in my heart, then the commandments are followed but not out of will but out of relationship. At the centre what is the point of the commandments if they do not support and construct the relationships that we rely on. What we are hurt it is these things we want to break and tear up.
You cannot will yourself into a relationship, you can discover and participate in one. So when people say, "You are being self righteous" it is a language that does not fit. We walk in things of God because that is His and our way, it is the relationship and who we are. Faith is trust and belief in Jesus, that His words are true, that He does represent the Lord and has saved us.
The idea we are keeping score or saying I am saved, opps no I am not, is just game playing. When you know what love is it is the foundation of your life, you are hurt when you get it wrong, and want to put things right and grow some more.
So to get back to OSAS, this is just from people who have yet to fully walk with the Lord and see His real love and grace flowing through their lives.
You are assuming that all believers have a Bible, a solid church to attend, discipleship, etc...What about those who don't have any of these? What about those who aren't reading and studying Scripture? What about those who aren't renewing their minds in order not to conform to this world?
John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Matthew 7:7-8
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
I understood what you were saying but I need clarity on,how was a person saved In the old testament If they used their own faith In action.
Isn't It still faith by grace In the old testament.
I just don't want to go Into error.
The OT saints at the time did not experience salvation like you and I. When God had a message for man, God would use a spokesman. God would give His message to the spokesman, in turn, the spokesman gives God's message to the intended audience. Those living in the OT economy had to listen to God's chosen spokesman in order to know His expectations for humanity. If man did not listen to God's spokesman, he did so at his own risk. If he did listen and obey, he was placed in Abraham's bosom upon death. For example:
Noah preached about a coming flood. If you had been on earth when Noah warned others about a flood, what would you have done? You would have either listened to God's spokesman, took action, and entered the ark; or you would have rejected the message. Eight persons entered the ark, including Noah. Eight persons were saved through the flood.
Throughout time, whatever God's message would be, man's responsibility was to believe the message and obey. Today, after the resurrection, man only has to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is our obedience.
Here Is some Information from Andrew Wommack that will help some to understand better.
Below we have included Andrew’s commentary.
James 2:14-26 (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:14
Note on James 2:14
The obvious answer to this question is NO. However, faith alone does save. As John Calvin said long ago, “Faith alone saves, but saving faith is never alone.” True faith has actions. That’s the point James is making.
Imagine that you were with a group of people in an auditorium and I came in and told you the building was on fire. How would you react? Some people might scream, some might run, some might fight the fire. There is room for different reaction, but a person with no action would be considered crazy. Anything we truly believe, causes action. Faith is a heartfelt conviction (Romans 10:10) that is felt so strongly, it influences our actions. Those who say they believe and yet act contrary to that belief are deceived. That’s not Bible faith.
James 2:16
Note on James 2:16
The point James is making is that just saying you believe is as useless as just telling someone in need all their needs are met. It takes more than words to solve physical need. There needs to be corresponding actions. Likewise, it takes more than just saying we believe; we have to have corresponding actions to our faith to see any tangible results.
James 2:17
Note on James 2:17
We have to have air to breathe. We are dead without it. So, we couldn’t save ourselves from danger without breathing air. But did the air we breathed save us? In a sense, it did. But really, air doesn’t save anyone. We are the ones to get the credit, although it is absolutely true that it couldn’t have happened without breathing air.
Likewise, faith is what saves us (Romans 3:28 and Ephesians 2:8), but true faith has to be acted on to be alive. Acting on our faith is like breathing. It makes faith come alive and enables it to produce. You can only say that works (actions) save us in the same sense that breathing air can save us.
James 2:18
Note on James 2:18
Romans 10:10 says belief is a matter of the heart, and Proverbs 4:23 says that out of the heart comes our actions (also Proverbs 23:7). So, faith without actions isn’t true heart faith; it’s just mental assent or pure deception. But when we truly believe from our hearts, there will be corresponding actions.
Others can’t directly see what is in our hearts; only God knows the heart of man (1 Samuel 16:7). But since true faith always produces actions, we can get a good idea of a person’s faith by their actions. Those who say one thing but act differently are only fooling themselves and those who don’t know this truth.
James 2:19
Note on James 2:19
This has to be one of the most sarcastic statements in the Bible. Just acknowledging the existence of the One True God is not doing anything that demons haven’t done. Demons know very well who God is and that He exists. But the demons aren’t saved. All their actions are against the Lordship of Jesus. They are totally anti-Christ.
We have to do something the devil and demons haven’t done, and that is to have corresponding positive actions to this faith in the existence of God. Just acknowledging His existence without actions of submission to His Lordship puts us in the same category as the devil and his demons. Hell will be full of people who acknowledged the Father and Jesus but who never acted on that faith in humble submission.
James 2:20
Note on James 2:20
In the preceding verse, James showed that demons believed in the existence of God, but their actions were against Him. Likewise, those who say they believe but don’t act accordingly have dead faith that will get them the same fate as demons.
There are many scriptures that proclaim that faith in what Jesus did for us is what saves us but that saving faith isn’t just acknowledging facts. It’s heartfelt assurance that results in positive action. If there are no corresponding actions, then it’s not Bible faith.
James 2:21
Note on James 2:21
Now James draws on the example of Abraham to make his point about how important our actions are. Paul also drew on the example of Abraham to make the point that we are saved by faith without the deeds of the Law (Romans 3:28). This verse says Abraham was justified by works. Romans 3:28 says he was justified by faith without the deeds of the Law. Romans 4:2 speaks of Abraham not being justified by works. Which is it?
The key to understanding this is knowing there are two kinds of works, just as there are two types of righteousness (see my note at Romans 10:3). There are works of the Law (Romans 3:28) and works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3 and 2 Thessalonians 1:11). Works of the Law are actions which are done trying to earn something from God. No one can earn anything from God. We must humble ourselves and put faith in what Jesus did for us. But when we do that with true Bible faith, then that changes our hearts (2 Corinthians 5:17) and we have works (or actions) of faith. Works of faith are actions that come as a result of a changed heart, and are not what causes our heart to be changed. Works of faith are the result of relationship with God, and do not cause relationship with God.
So James and Paul are not contradicting each other at all. They are describing two opposite sides of the same coin. Paul was saying that salvation comes only by faith in what Jesus did for us (see my note at Ephesians 2:8). Our actions don’t earn us right standing with God (see my note at Romans 3:20). That is totally true. Then James is telling us how we can discern if that faith is true Bible faith or just mental assent. If what we say we believe doesn’t play out in our actions, then it’s false faith.
Many people have perceived James and Paul as opposing each other, but they actually balance each other perfectly. All great truths of the Bible have apparent opposing truths that actually grant greater understanding if understood properly.
To the point of this verse, Abraham believed God and his faith was counted to him for righteousness (Romans 4:1-5 and Genesis 15:6). That happened decades before Abraham took his son Isaac up to the mountain to sacrifice him (Genesis 22:1-24). Romans 4:9-16 reveals it happened before Abraham received the commandment to circumcise Isaac also (Genesis 17:9-11). Abraham had saving faith before all these actions, but his faith was completed when he obeyed God’s command to take Isaac and sacrifice him. So, Abraham’s faith saved him and made him righteous in God’s sight in Genesis 15:6, but Abraham’s faith didn’t become complete until he acted in obedience to God in Genesis 22:10-13.
James 2:22
Note on James 2:22
This is a powerful but dangerous truth if not understood properly. If we are struggling with our faith, we can complete it or make it perfect (producing the desired result) through our actions of faith. I did not say actions only but actions of faith. Actions without faith are powerless and can kill us. But faith without actions are dead too (James 2:20). If faith is already present, then acting accordingly will release the power of faith resulting in miracles.
But many people have thought that actions alone will produce miraculous results. So, they have quit their medications or acted in some way that is life threatening, thinking their actions will make their miracle come. That’s not it. Faith is our victory that overcomes the world (1 John 5:4). Actions, or works, are not our victory. If faith isn’t present in the heart, then actions can kill us. And faith doesn’t come by actions but rather by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
Faith has to be acted on to accomplish the results we desire. But it’s not the action that produces the miracle; it’s the faith. So, anyone who dies supposedly “acting in faith” missed it. They acted in desire or were under the false impression that actions could cause faith to come. But if they had truly acted in faith, they would have obtained the desired result.
We need to be honest enough before God to know if our faith is true Bible faith that needs to be acted on or if we are still in the hope stage of faith and we need to incubate that faith a little longer before we act on it (see my note at Romans 5:4).
James 2:23
Note on James 2:23
There are three times that Abraham is referred to as the friend of God. The other two times are 2 Chronicles 20:7 and Isaiah 41:8.
Most scholars believe Isaac was at least 17 years old when Abraham was going to sacrifice him (Genesis 22:9-11). And the birth of Isaac was approximately 16 years after the birth of Ishmael (see my note at Genesis 16:3), which was at least one year after the statement of Genesis 15:6 about Abraham believing God and it being counted to him for righteousness. So, the account of Abraham offering Isaac as a sacrifice was about 34 years after the Genesis 15:6 instance.
James 2:24
Note on James 2:24
As explained in my note at James 2:21, there is no contradiction between what James is saying here and what Paul said in Romans 3:28 and many other passages. Faith alone saves, but saving faith is never alone (John Calvin).
James 2:25
Note on James 2:25
Rahab believed in the God of Israel and that He had given the land of Canaan to the Israelites (Joshua 2:9-11), but that faith wouldn’t have saved her if she hadn’t acted to protect Israel’s spies (Joshua 2:1-15).
James 2:26
Note on James 2:26
James was teaching on true, Bible faith, but in the process, he gave a great revelation about what part of us is truly the life-giving force. It’s the spirit that gives life (John 6:63) to our bodies, as can be seen by the fact that the exit of the spirit is what constitutes death. God breathed life into man’s nostrils (Genesis 2:7), and he became a living soul. I believe Adam’s soul already existed, but it was lifeless until the spirit God breathed into him gave it life. Then the combination of Adam’s spirit and soul became his heart (not the physical pump but “heart” as referring to our inner being).
At death, a believer’s spirit and soul (see my notes at Genesis 35:18 and 1 Kings 17:22) leave the body and go to the Lord. At the resurrection day, the body will be resurrected in a new form and reunited with the believer’s spirit and soul. It’s the soul of a dead person that is recognizable (Revelation 6:9).
In the same way that the spirit is the life-giving part of us, likewise, actions are what give life to our faith.
Andrew Wommack's Living Commentary.
You’re blessed and highly favored.
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God and our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:2)
Andrew Wommack Ministries Andrew Wommack Ministries International -
Below we have included Andrew’s commentary.
James 2:14-26 (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:14
Note on James 2:14
The obvious answer to this question is NO. However, faith alone does save. As John Calvin said long ago, “Faith alone saves, but saving faith is never alone.” True faith has actions. That’s the point James is making.
Imagine that you were with a group of people in an auditorium and I came in and told you the building was on fire. How would you react? Some people might scream, some might run, some might fight the fire. There is room for different reaction, but a person with no action would be considered crazy. Anything we truly believe, causes action. Faith is a heartfelt conviction (Romans 10:10) that is felt so strongly, it influences our actions. Those who say they believe and yet act contrary to that belief are deceived. That’s not Bible faith.
James 2:16
Note on James 2:16
The point James is making is that just saying you believe is as useless as just telling someone in need all their needs are met. It takes more than words to solve physical need. There needs to be corresponding actions. Likewise, it takes more than just saying we believe; we have to have corresponding actions to our faith to see any tangible results.
James 2:17
Note on James 2:17
We have to have air to breathe. We are dead without it. So, we couldn’t save ourselves from danger without breathing air. But did the air we breathed save us? In a sense, it did. But really, air doesn’t save anyone. We are the ones to get the credit, although it is absolutely true that it couldn’t have happened without breathing air.
Likewise, faith is what saves us (Romans 3:28 and Ephesians 2:8), but true faith has to be acted on to be alive. Acting on our faith is like breathing. It makes faith come alive and enables it to produce. You can only say that works (actions) save us in the same sense that breathing air can save us.
James 2:18
Note on James 2:18
Romans 10:10 says belief is a matter of the heart, and Proverbs 4:23 says that out of the heart comes our actions (also Proverbs 23:7). So, faith without actions isn’t true heart faith; it’s just mental assent or pure deception. But when we truly believe from our hearts, there will be corresponding actions.
Others can’t directly see what is in our hearts; only God knows the heart of man (1 Samuel 16:7). But since true faith always produces actions, we can get a good idea of a person’s faith by their actions. Those who say one thing but act differently are only fooling themselves and those who don’t know this truth.
James 2:19
Note on James 2:19
This has to be one of the most sarcastic statements in the Bible. Just acknowledging the existence of the One True God is not doing anything that demons haven’t done. Demons know very well who God is and that He exists. But the demons aren’t saved. All their actions are against the Lordship of Jesus. They are totally anti-Christ.
We have to do something the devil and demons haven’t done, and that is to have corresponding positive actions to this faith in the existence of God. Just acknowledging His existence without actions of submission to His Lordship puts us in the same category as the devil and his demons. Hell will be full of people who acknowledged the Father and Jesus but who never acted on that faith in humble submission.
James 2:20
Note on James 2:20
In the preceding verse, James showed that demons believed in the existence of God, but their actions were against Him. Likewise, those who say they believe but don’t act accordingly have dead faith that will get them the same fate as demons.
There are many scriptures that proclaim that faith in what Jesus did for us is what saves us but that saving faith isn’t just acknowledging facts. It’s heartfelt assurance that results in positive action. If there are no corresponding actions, then it’s not Bible faith.
James 2:21
Note on James 2:21
Now James draws on the example of Abraham to make his point about how important our actions are. Paul also drew on the example of Abraham to make the point that we are saved by faith without the deeds of the Law (Romans 3:28). This verse says Abraham was justified by works. Romans 3:28 says he was justified by faith without the deeds of the Law. Romans 4:2 speaks of Abraham not being justified by works. Which is it?
The key to understanding this is knowing there are two kinds of works, just as there are two types of righteousness (see my note at Romans 10:3). There are works of the Law (Romans 3:28) and works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3 and 2 Thessalonians 1:11). Works of the Law are actions which are done trying to earn something from God. No one can earn anything from God. We must humble ourselves and put faith in what Jesus did for us. But when we do that with true Bible faith, then that changes our hearts (2 Corinthians 5:17) and we have works (or actions) of faith. Works of faith are actions that come as a result of a changed heart, and are not what causes our heart to be changed. Works of faith are the result of relationship with God, and do not cause relationship with God.
So James and Paul are not contradicting each other at all. They are describing two opposite sides of the same coin. Paul was saying that salvation comes only by faith in what Jesus did for us (see my note at Ephesians 2:8). Our actions don’t earn us right standing with God (see my note at Romans 3:20). That is totally true. Then James is telling us how we can discern if that faith is true Bible faith or just mental assent. If what we say we believe doesn’t play out in our actions, then it’s false faith.
Many people have perceived James and Paul as opposing each other, but they actually balance each other perfectly. All great truths of the Bible have apparent opposing truths that actually grant greater understanding if understood properly.
To the point of this verse, Abraham believed God and his faith was counted to him for righteousness (Romans 4:1-5 and Genesis 15:6). That happened decades before Abraham took his son Isaac up to the mountain to sacrifice him (Genesis 22:1-24). Romans 4:9-16 reveals it happened before Abraham received the commandment to circumcise Isaac also (Genesis 17:9-11). Abraham had saving faith before all these actions, but his faith was completed when he obeyed God’s command to take Isaac and sacrifice him. So, Abraham’s faith saved him and made him righteous in God’s sight in Genesis 15:6, but Abraham’s faith didn’t become complete until he acted in obedience to God in Genesis 22:10-13.
James 2:22
Note on James 2:22
This is a powerful but dangerous truth if not understood properly. If we are struggling with our faith, we can complete it or make it perfect (producing the desired result) through our actions of faith. I did not say actions only but actions of faith. Actions without faith are powerless and can kill us. But faith without actions are dead too (James 2:20). If faith is already present, then acting accordingly will release the power of faith resulting in miracles.
But many people have thought that actions alone will produce miraculous results. So, they have quit their medications or acted in some way that is life threatening, thinking their actions will make their miracle come. That’s not it. Faith is our victory that overcomes the world (1 John 5:4). Actions, or works, are not our victory. If faith isn’t present in the heart, then actions can kill us. And faith doesn’t come by actions but rather by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
Faith has to be acted on to accomplish the results we desire. But it’s not the action that produces the miracle; it’s the faith. So, anyone who dies supposedly “acting in faith” missed it. They acted in desire or were under the false impression that actions could cause faith to come. But if they had truly acted in faith, they would have obtained the desired result.
We need to be honest enough before God to know if our faith is true Bible faith that needs to be acted on or if we are still in the hope stage of faith and we need to incubate that faith a little longer before we act on it (see my note at Romans 5:4).
James 2:23
Note on James 2:23
There are three times that Abraham is referred to as the friend of God. The other two times are 2 Chronicles 20:7 and Isaiah 41:8.
Most scholars believe Isaac was at least 17 years old when Abraham was going to sacrifice him (Genesis 22:9-11). And the birth of Isaac was approximately 16 years after the birth of Ishmael (see my note at Genesis 16:3), which was at least one year after the statement of Genesis 15:6 about Abraham believing God and it being counted to him for righteousness. So, the account of Abraham offering Isaac as a sacrifice was about 34 years after the Genesis 15:6 instance.
James 2:24
Note on James 2:24
As explained in my note at James 2:21, there is no contradiction between what James is saying here and what Paul said in Romans 3:28 and many other passages. Faith alone saves, but saving faith is never alone (John Calvin).
James 2:25
Note on James 2:25
Rahab believed in the God of Israel and that He had given the land of Canaan to the Israelites (Joshua 2:9-11), but that faith wouldn’t have saved her if she hadn’t acted to protect Israel’s spies (Joshua 2:1-15).
James 2:26
Note on James 2:26
James was teaching on true, Bible faith, but in the process, he gave a great revelation about what part of us is truly the life-giving force. It’s the spirit that gives life (John 6:63) to our bodies, as can be seen by the fact that the exit of the spirit is what constitutes death. God breathed life into man’s nostrils (Genesis 2:7), and he became a living soul. I believe Adam’s soul already existed, but it was lifeless until the spirit God breathed into him gave it life. Then the combination of Adam’s spirit and soul became his heart (not the physical pump but “heart” as referring to our inner being).
At death, a believer’s spirit and soul (see my notes at Genesis 35:18 and 1 Kings 17:22) leave the body and go to the Lord. At the resurrection day, the body will be resurrected in a new form and reunited with the believer’s spirit and soul. It’s the soul of a dead person that is recognizable (Revelation 6:9).
In the same way that the spirit is the life-giving part of us, likewise, actions are what give life to our faith.
Andrew Wommack's Living Commentary.
You’re blessed and highly favored.
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God and our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Peter 1:2)
Andrew Wommack Ministries Andrew Wommack Ministries International -
I just happened to stumble across this on gotquestions.org and it sounds similar to what you are saying:
Question: "How were people saved before Jesus died for our sins?"
Answer: Since the fall of man, the basis of salvation has always been the death of Christ. No one, either prior to the cross or since the cross, would ever be saved without that one pivotal event in the history of the world. Christ's death paid the penalty for past sins of Old Testament saints and future sins of New Testament saints.
The requirement for salvation has always been faith. The object of one's faith for salvation has always been God. The psalmist wrote, “Blessed are all who take refuge in him” (Psalm 2:12). Genesis 15:6 tells us that Abraham believed God and that was enough for God to credit it to him for righteousness (see also Romans 4:3-8). The Old Testament sacrificial system did not take away sin, as Hebrews 10:1-10 clearly teaches. It did, however, point to the day when the Son of God would shed His blood for the sinful human race.
What has changed through the ages is the content of a believer's faith. God's requirement of what must be believed is based on the amount of revelation He has given mankind up to that time. This is called progressive revelation. Adam believed the promise God gave in Genesis 3:15 that the Seed of the woman would conquer Satan. Adam believed Him, demonstrated by the name he gave Eve (v. 20) and the Lord indicated His acceptance immediately by covering them with coats of skin (v. 21). At that point that is all Adam knew, but he believed it.
Abraham believed God according to the promises and new revelation God gave him in Genesis 12 and 15. Prior to Moses, no Scripture was written, but mankind was responsible for what God had revealed. Throughout the Old Testament, believers came to salvation because they believed that God would someday take care of their sin problem. Today, we look back, believing that He has already taken care of our sins on the cross (John 3:16; Hebrews 9:28).
What about believers in Christ's day, prior to the cross and resurrection? What did they believe? Did they understand the full picture of Christ dying on a cross for their sins? Late in His ministry, “Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life” (Matthew 16:21-22). What was the reaction of His disciples to this message? “Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. ‘Never, Lord!’ he said. ‘This shall never happen to you!’” Peter and the other disciples did not know the full truth, yet they were saved because they believed that God would take care of their sin problem. They didn't exactly know how He would accomplish that, any more than Adam, Abraham, Moses, or David knew how, but they believed God.
Today, we have more revelation than the people living before the resurrection of Christ; we know the full picture. “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe” (Hebrews 1:1-2). Our salvation is still based on the death of Christ, our faith is still the requirement for salvation, and the object of our faith is still God. Today, for us, the content of our faith is that Jesus Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He rose the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). - How were people saved before Jesus died for our sins?
Make no mistake about it though. The only way to heaven is through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Therefore, though a man in the OT died in faith and was thus protected from hell by the grace of God, he could not go to heaven prior to the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. The fact that they had to wait on the blood atonement of Jesus Christ proves Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and that no man comes to the Father but by Him.
How is it that those men and women did not go to heaven or hell? The answer is found in 34:6-7.
"And the LORD passed before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
They would be forgiven of their sins , but their record was not cleared without the blood of Jesus Christ.
How is it that those men and women did not go to heaven or hell? The answer is found in 34:6-7.
"And the LORD passed before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
They would be forgiven of their sins , but their record was not cleared without the blood of Jesus Christ.
Some call progressive revelation the dispensations and we are now In the dispensation of grace.
I tend to think more along the lines of what covenant are we in. We are currently in the New Covenant based on the death and resurrection of our Lord. His blood redeemed us. Thank you Jesus!
So what do you think about those that claim the OT saints were looking forward to the cross? Some wrote prophecy about it, but the cross was hidden was it not?
I think the OT people were looking to God with the understanding that they had at the time. The disciples were told 17 times that Jesus was going to die and they still didn't get it. They were looking for a "conquering" Messiah not the "suffering" One first.
None knew about Jesus Christ per se although they did know that they were serving people in the future. They knew someone/something was coming but as to the specifics - I would say no, they did not know but they sure know all about it now though since Jesus came and got them and then brought them to heaven to be with Himself and the Father...
1 Peter 1:10-12 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
[SUP]11 [/SUP] seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.
I think the OT people were looking to God with the understanding that they had at the time. The disciples were told 17 times that Jesus was going to die and they still didn't get it. They were looking for a "conquering" Messiah not the "suffering" One first.
None knew about Jesus Christ per se although they did know that they were serving people in the future. They knew someone/something was coming but as to the specifics - I would say no, they did not know but they sure know all about it now though since Jesus came and got them and then brought them to heaven to be with Himself and the Father...
1 Peter 1:10-12 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
[SUP]11 [/SUP] seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.
I think if people understood this, it would clear up all the debates about salvation and works. My point, and you may disagree, is after the church is raptured, God is dealing with the nation of Israel once again and will once again require them to have faith and demonstrate their faith through works to endure the tribulation to make it to the Millennium. Eternal salvation is not necessarily at stake. This is why I believe that James' audience is the nation of Israel in the time of Jacob's trouble. Matthew and James lines up together because they both have in mind the kingdom of Christ on earth. Can you see my point?
I haven't looked into the coming dealing with the nation of Israel. I know that the Lord will be faithful to them in what He has said He would do concerning them. The Lord has me focusing in on Christ and what He has accomplished in the New Covenant.
Personally I think as much about the coming millennium reign of Christ on this earth as I wonder about what the ant population in Africa is. I know that both are real but are not in any way associated with my life in Christ now on this earth.
Personally I think every scripture has to be viewed with the "intention" of the writer and who are the people being talked to at the time the letter was written. James was written to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. These 12 tribes consisted of Jewish believers in Christ and some that did not believe. The term "brethren" is used by both Paul and Peter when they were addressing other Jews in Acts and in the book of Hebrews too whether they believed in Jesus or not.
James was one of the first books in the NT to be written and all scripture is "for" us to learn from but not all scripture is written "to" us. There is a vast difference between the "for" to learn and the "to" us. James thought as a Jew and he related what he knew as a Jew. By the time Paul went to Jerusalem in Acts 21:20 - most of the gospel of the grace of Christ had been watered down by Jewish believers that were "zealous for the law".
I think that what James was talking about as far as faith having a corresponding work is in line with Paul and that we are saved by grace through faith. Each one of James' examples showed a "one time" corresponding action to their faith. Real faith will always have a corresponding action to it. James is looking at it from a different point of view because he was trying to show his readers that they were to help their brethren out by "doing something" to help feed them and clothe them and not just use words.
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If we are all saved by our faith, which is never perfect, never flawless. We are capable of falling from grace because we have a degree of a free will. We have an intellect and a will, capapble of making decisions, good ones, bad ones…
Jesus threatens sinners with the punishment of a hell, Gehenna (Mat 5),,,,,if we are all saved why would Jesus threaten us with some kind of punishment?
Because we have an intellect and a free will it is possible to corrupt one's faith by sinning.
If we are all saved uhhh by "the blood of the Lamb" isn't that a form of predestination,,where we have no freedom of choice…..????/
"He who imagines that he will stand should take care lest he fall." (1 Cor)
Jesus threatens sinners with the punishment of a hell, Gehenna (Mat 5),,,,,if we are all saved why would Jesus threaten us with some kind of punishment?
Because we have an intellect and a free will it is possible to corrupt one's faith by sinning.
If we are all saved uhhh by "the blood of the Lamb" isn't that a form of predestination,,where we have no freedom of choice…..????/
"He who imagines that he will stand should take care lest he fall." (1 Cor)
Let the Scripture be as honest to you as possible. Who's the audience...the nation of Israel as a whole. Why is the Lord addressing the nation of Israel as a whole? When does he want them to know what's going on and how to respond? Since James is written before Paul's epistles, why is it placed after? Could it be that the Lord has something to say to His people Israel during the tribulation as the coming of the Lord is at hand(literally) and the judge is standing before the door? Should we not take this literally? Paul says the Lord is seated at the right hand of the Father. Why? Is He sitting until the fullness of the Gentile be come in? Think about these things. Before I had a dispensational view of Scripture I too would view James as a Christian epistle. I believe it's so much deeper than that.
I think James had no idea that we in 2016 would be reading his letter that he wrote to his Jewish people. I just take the letter for what it is - writing to the people of his day and in it are things I can learn from the Holy Spirit.
James wrote to the 12 tribes because to him - that's what the only believers in Jesus were back when he wrote the epistle.
So, you are saying that the tribulation was around 61AD - 70AD? When is the tribulation to you? Is it already past?
I think James wrote to the people of his day which to him were all Jewish at the time of his writings to them. They were not too fond of them Gentile dogs which were unclean.
I don't see any conflict at all with Paul and James - just 2 sides of the same coin being expressed differently.
Remember, it's the Holy Spirit who led James to write what he wrote. Could the Lord have a future audience in mind when He inspired James? The tribulation will come after the fullness of the Gentiles are come in. The rapture of the church occurs, then comes the time of Jacob's trouble where God once again reaches out to Israel as a whole, the twelve tribes, preparing them for the coming kingdom on earth where Jesus is King fulfilling the Davidic Covenant.
The Bible says the saints are predestined to salvation,so they believe that God chooses who will be saved,in the beginning,without them making a choice.
But the Bible says many are called,but few are chosen,so God does the calling while they are on earth,and then does the choosing on earth,and if God chose in the beginning,why is He calling people that cannot be chosen,for many are called,but few are chosen.
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
God calls things that have not yet happened,as though they already happened,because if it is a plan of God to happen in the future,it is the same as if it happened in the beginning,for it will surely come to pass,with no hindrances.
All things were already planned out in the beginning,before God laid down the foundation of the world,so all future events were the same as if they already happened in the beginning.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation.
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Since everything was already planned out in the beginning,and all future events were in the beginning,according to God,they cannot hold up the argument that God chooses who will be saved in the beginning,for all things happened in the beginning,according to God.
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,but we know that it did not happen until 4000 years later,and will they say in actuality the Lamb was slain from the beginning,they cannot,so they cannot hold up the argument that God chooses who will be saved in the beginning,and they would have to admit that all future events were already in the beginning,which in actuality they were not,but would be events that would surely come to pass,so they are considered as already happened in the beginning.
So they do not have a leg to stand on concerning that,for then they would have to admit that everything in actuality happened in the beginning,which we know it did not.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Although the Bible says the saints are predestined to salvation,we see in reality that God wants all people to be saved,and Jesus gave Himself for all people.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
We see in reality that God is the saviour of all people,but only those who believe can receive it,but it is available to all people.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Joh 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
We see in reality that Jesus takes away the sins of the world,not only some people,and is the saviour of the world,and lights every person that comes in to this world,which means everybody has a chance to be see the light of Jesus,and be saved.
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
We see in reality that God said whoever wants that salvation can have that salvation.
So in reality anybody can have salvation,and God already had the plan to give mankind salvation,before He laid down the foundation of the world,so it is the same as if the saints had that salvation in the beginning,but it did not come until the Lamb was slain,which also was the same as if it happened in the beginning.
God's kingdom is based on true love,so people have to choose to love God,but God gets the glory,because a person cannot come to the Father,unless the Father draws them,and God has to intercede for the believer to actually make it happen.
You can program your computer to say I love you,but it does not,but has no choice but to say,I love you,seeing no other alternative,so if God chooses who will be saved,without their say so,then God's kingdom is not true love,but robotic love,and that would mean that love between humans is greater then the love between God,and His childrem,which we know is not true.
Also I would like to go over works,for they also do not understand that.
They believe that works do not count towards their salvation,but they are placing it wrongly,for it is not talking about works,after we are saved,but it is talking about works before we are saved.
The book of Romans is addressed to the Gentiles,to turn them to Jesus,and holiness.
Paul is not talking we are not saved by works,after we are saved,but he is talking we are not saved by works,without Christ.
Paul is telling the Gentiles,that all their works they do in their false religions,trying to please their gods,and find favor with them,will not save them,and cause then to have a relationship with God,but only by confessing Christ,can they be saved.
So we are not saved by works is talking about people trying to please God,and have favor with Him,without Christ,not after they confess Christ.
Then when we are saved,and allow the Spirit to lead us,then we have to have works of the Spirit,which is to love people,by feeding them,preaching the Gospel to them,and such things,to have faith active in our life,which the Bible says faith alone cannot save you,and not jusitified by faith alone,but Abraham believed God,and it was counted on to him for righteousnes,but he was justified by works.
So faith can stand alone in some instances,and apply,like a person that has faith in a God,and kingdom,they cannot see,and had faith to believe in Christ though they have not seen Him,which Jesus said blessed is he that has not seen Me,but still believes,but overall faith is not active unless there is works in the persons life.
So if we have to do works,to have faith active in our life,and be saved,then works count towards our salvation,for if we do not do them,we are not saved,and the Bible says we are not saved by our works,which is talking about being with God,without Christ,as the Gentile nations were doing,and Paul was pointing them to Christ,not after we are saved,so they are placing it at the right time.
But denominations win sometimes concerning what people believe,that is contrary to the Bible.