ONCE saved always saved!.

[peacefulbeliever]

When a Christian sins and refuses to repent of that sin, turning from Christ back to the world.

1 Jn 5:8 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

ES says one born of God can live in sin all he cares to and remains saved.

1 Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

One who quits believing born of God?

1 Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

"Doeth" is present tense. Can a Christian quit doing righteousness and start doing unrighteousness and still be born of God/saved?

Does the one that doeth unrighteousness, continues to live in sin, quits believing fit the definition of one who is born of God according to these verses?

You act like just because someone believes in eternal security goes around sinning with an "I don't give a **** attitude and that is not so. We endeavor to walk by the Spirit just as much as you do but we know that our salvation does not HANG on what we do but on our faith in Jesus Christ. Faith is not blind; for faith begins with knowledge [Romans 10:17] It is not speculative for faith believes facts of which it is sure. It is not an unpractical dreamy thing for faith trusts and stakes its destiny upon the truth of revelation. We don't do anything different from any of the rest of you who believe you will lose your standing as a child of God in the family of God EXCEPT believe that once we are born again - we are born again of the Spirit and God doesn't take that back and there is no way we can get rid of it. Faith is believing that Christ is what He is said to be, and that He will do what He has promised to do.

1 Jn 5:4,5 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Is it possible to become "unborn" of your earthly parents because you turn your back on them or does their "seed" remain in you?

 

[Richie_2uk]

Wow, I Didn't think my thread would be this huge of a debates and disagreements and arguments. LOL But this is CC, so what do you expect LOL.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Impute - logizomai

1. 
   [*=left]to reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over
   1. 
      [*=left]to take into account, to make an account of
      1. 
         [*=left]metaph. to pass to one's account, to impute
         [*=left]a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i.e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight
      
      [*=left]to number among, reckon with
      [*=left]to reckon or account
   
   [*=left]to reckon inward, count up or weigh the reasons, to deliberate
   [*=left]by reckoning up all the reasons, to gather or infer
   1. 
      [*=left]to consider, take into account, weigh, meditate on
      [*=left]to suppose, deem, judge
      [*=left]to determine, purpose, decide
      
      Impute does not mean an infusion of Christ's perfect righteousness into you. If that were the case then you would be as sinless as Christ, but your are not. The whole idea of Christ's perfect obedience transferred to the sinner is a feeble attempt to take responsibility off the sinner to obey by believing, repenting confessing and being baptized and then live faithfully as a Christian.
      
      The Greek Word: Logizomai
      The Greek word logizomai is the Greek word cited in the dictionaries and encyclopedias as the word from which the English word “impute” is translated. The word occurs slightly over forty times in the New Testament and bears the following meanings:
      [*=left]
      1. Think, believe, be of the opinion. The passages in which logizomai bears this meaning are as follows: Rom. 2:3; 3:28; 8:18; 14:14; 2 Cor. 11:5; Phil. 3:13; and 1 Pet. 5:12. None of these passages have any relevance to the doctrine of imputation inasmuch as the word bears a different definition in these contexts.
      [*=left]
      2. Think (about), consider, ponder, let one’s mind dwell on. Again, this definition has no bearing on the subject of imputation but the passages in which logizomai bears this meaning are the following: Lk. 24:1; Jn. 11:50; 1 Cor. 13:11; 2 Cor. 3:5; 10:2, 7, 11; Phil. 4:8; Heb. 11:19.
      [*=left]
      3. Reckon, calculate. If any usage of logizomai is going to support the doctrine of imputation, this usage must be it. Consequently, we must give this usage a more thorough examination than we have given the other two usages. This definition is broken down into two categories in Arndt and Gingrich’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. (I have relied on Arndt and Gingrich throughout this examination of the word logizomai.)
      [*=left]
      a. Count, take into account. Let us rather carefully consider the usages where logizomai bears this meaning:
      (1) 1 Cor. 13:5. “Love… does not take into account a wrong suffered.” Obviously, this verse makes no reference to imputation in the theological sense and, therefore, has no bearing on the study.
      [*=left]
      (2) 2 Cor. 5:19. “Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation” (vs. 18-19). This is one of the verses which some think support the idea of imputation as taught by the Calvinists. However, the trespasses of sinners are not counted against them because Christ became sin for us. There is no mention of imputing the perfect obedience of Christ to the believer’s account in this passage. Sinners become the “righteousness of God.” “God’s righteousness, in brief, is tire quality that is stamped upon us by God himself when in heaven, on his judgment seat, he renders the judicial verdict that acquits us of all sin and guilt …. The instant that verdict is pronounced he is dikaios, `righteous’ ” (R.C.H. Lenski, The Interpretation of St. Paul’s First and Second Epistles to the Corinthians, p. 1054).
      [*=left]
      (3) Rom. 4:8. “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.” Sin is not taken into account when it is forgiven. Nothing is said about the imputation of Christ’s perfect obedience to the account of the believer.
      [*=left]
      (4) 2 Tim. 4:16. “At my first defense no one supported me, but all deserted me; may it not be counted against them.” Obviously, this is Paul’s request that God not lay sin to the charge of some who sinned against him and, therefore, has no bearing on the subject of imputed righteousness.
      (5) Rom. 4:4. “Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor but as what is due.” This is discussing the difference between salvation by works (perfect obedience) and salvation by grace. Commenting on that difference, this passage says nothing about the subject of imputing the perfect obedience of Christ to the believer’s account.
      [*=left]
      (6) Rom. 4:6. “Just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered.” Salvation comes to man apart from works; it comes through grace. But notice that this grace is reckoned, not on the basis of Christ’s perfect obedience being imputed to the believer’s account, but on the basis of God forgiving man of his sins! This says nothing about imputing Christ’s perfect obedience to the believer’s account!
      [*=left]
      (7) Rom. 4:11. “. . . and he (Abraham) received the sign, of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness which he had while uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be reckoned to him.” Inasmuch as this is talking about Abraham, it can hardly be discussing the imputation of the perfect obedience of Christ to his account. Notice that righteousness is reckoned to him. This righteousness is not the imputation of Christ’s perfect obedience to the life of a Christian but the divine acquittal-forgiveness of sins! The context discusses “those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered” but it says absolutely nothing about imputing Christ’s perfect obedience to the believer’s account!
      [*=left]
      (8) Rom. 4:3. “For what does the Scripture say? `And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” This passage mentions that Abraham’s faith was imputed to him for righteousness but says absolutely nothing about Christ’s perfect obedience being imputed to him.
      [*=left]
      (9) Rom. 4:5. “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.” This passage again mentions that faith is reckoned as righteousness but says nothing about the imputation of Christ’s perfect obedience to the believer’s account.
      [*=left]
      (10) Rom. 4:9. “Is this blessing upon the circumcised, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say,`Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.” This passage again mentions that faith is reckoned as righteousness but says nothing about the imputation of Christ’s perfect obedience to the believer’s account.
      [*=left]
      (11) Rom. 4:22. “Therefore also it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” Gal. 3:6. “Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” Jas. 2:23. “. . . and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, `And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,’ and he was called the friend of God.” All of these three passages pertain to the one case of Abraham. They all teach that Abraham’s faith was imputed for righteousness; not one of them mentions that Christ’s perfect obedience was imputed to Abraham!
      [*=left]
      (12) Rom. 4:10. “How then was it reckoned? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.” In showing that Abraham was justified by faith and not by works, Paul asked whether Abraham was justified before or after circumcision. Again, this passage offers no support for those who teach that Christ’s perfect obedience is reckoned to the account of the believer.
      [*=left]
      (13) Rom. 4:23-25. “Now not for his sake only was it written, that `it was reckoned to him,’ but for our sake also, to whom it will be reckoned, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, Him who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.” Again, this passage considers the idea of justification by faith; it distinctly mentions that Jesus was delivered up as our sin offering but mentions nothing about His perfect obedience being imputed to the believer’s account. The reference in v. 25 to “raised because of our justification” cannot be twisted to teach the believer’s account.
      [*=left]
      (14) 2 Cor. 12:6. “For if I do wish to boast I shall not be foolish, for I shall be speaking the truth; but I refrain from this, so that no one may credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me.” This is not even discussing the subject of justification much less the imputing of Christ’s righteousness to the believer’s account.
      b. As a result of a calculation, evaluate, estimate, look upon as, consider. The usages of this definition have no relationship to the subject although here are the passages in which the word logizomai appears: Acts 19:27; Mk. 15:28; Lk. 22:37; Rom. 2:26; 6:11; 8:36; 9:8; 1 Cor. 4:1; 2 Cor. 10:2.
      [*=left]
      [*=left]​
      Conclusion
      Whatever support might be given to the doctrine of the imputation of Christ’s perfect obedience to the believer’s account is going to have to come from some source other than the definition and usage of the word logizomai. There is nothing in the word’s usage which would ever have suggested the idea that Christ’s perfect obedience was credited to the believer’s account so that God saw Christ’s perfect obedience rather than the believer’s sins. In our next article, we shall consider some other arguments used in defense of this Calvinistic doctrine.
      Truth Magazine XXII: 4, pp. 67-69
      January 26, 1978
      
      Imputed Righteousness: Examining the Arguments (1) — Truth Magazine Online

What my definition from Strong's wasn't good enough for you?

imputed: to reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over; to take into account, to make an account of; metaph. to pass to one's account, to impute; a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i.e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight; to number among, reckon with; to reckon or account; to reckon inward, count up or weigh the reasons, to deliberate; by reckoning up all the reasons, to gather or infer; to consider, take into account, weigh, meditate on; to suppose, deem, judge; to determine, purpose, decide

Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible: "to reckon, take into account", or metaphorically, "to put down to a person's account" [In the following, where the KJV has that rendering, the RV uses the verb "to reckon" which is far more suitable, Rom. 4:6 8,11,11,12,13; 2 Cor. 5:19; James 2:23]

So let's look at 'reckon' - the Greek word also - logizomai is properly used (a) of 'numerical calculation", e.g. Luke 22:37; (b) metaphorically, "by a reckoning of characteristics or reasons, to take into account", Rom. 2:26, "shall. . .be reckoned", RV (KJV "counted"), of "reckoning" uncircumcision for circumcision by God's estimate in contrast to that of the Jew regarding his own condition (v.3); in 4:3,5,6,9,11,22,23,24 of "reckoning" righteousness to persons, in all of which the RV uses the verb "to reckon" instead of the KJV "to count or to impute"; in verse 4 the subject is treated by way of contrast between grace and debt, which latter involves the "reckoning" of a reward for works; what is owed as a debt cannot be "reckoned" as a favor, but the faith of Abraham and his spiritual children sets them outside the category of those who seek to be justified by self effort, and vice versa, the latter [ those who seek to be justified by self effort] are excluded from the grace of righteousness bestowed on the sole condition of faith; so in Gal. 3:6 (RV, "was reckoned," KJV, "was accounted"); since Abraham, like all the natural descendants of Adam, was a sinner, he was destitute of righteousness in the sight of God; if, then, his relationship with God was to be rectified (i.e., if he was to be justified before God), the rectification could not be brought about by works of merit on his part; in James 2:23, RV, "reckoned," the subject is viewed from a different standpoint.

 

[Billyd]

The OSAS advocates don't say anything about change, from my understanding, their motto is that if you believe, your automatically saved, no matter what you do. That's my problem with it. I do agree that when a person accepts Christ as their personal Savior and their lives begin to take a new direction, salvation is not withheld. But that entails faith, not just a passive confession of belief.


I disagree with your definition of what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is. You don't need to replace the HS, you just need to go against it and deny it. A nonbeliever cannot blasphemy the Spirit, because they never believed in it in the first place. Only a believer can commit the sin. In other words, if a Christian is delivered-up before the antiChrist in the endtimes, and they deny the Holy Spirit, that's unforgivable. jmo.

Our only disagreement on Blasphemy is that I don't believe that one who truly believes in Jesus can deny the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is a part of the believer. I'll leave it there.

Here's the real difference between one who knows that he has been saved and one who spends his life wondering whether he is saved or not. The one who has been saved, works because he loves God. The one who wonders if he is saved, spends his life working to get God to love him enough to save him.

 

[royalscot]

The OSAS advocates don't say anything about change, from my understanding, their motto is that if you believe, your automatically saved, no matter what you do. That's my problem with it. I do agree that when a person accepts Christ as their personal Savior and their lives begin to take a new direction, salvation is not withheld. But that entails faith, not just a passive confession of belief.

I disagree with your definition of what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is. You don't need to replace the HS, you just need to go against it and deny it. A nonbeliever cannot blasphemy the Spirit, because they never believed in it in the first place. Only a believer can commit the sin. In other words, if a Christian is delivered-up before the antiChrist in the endtimes, and they deny the Holy Spirit, that's unforgivable. jmo.

was jesus talking to jews or gentiles, when he was on earth.( what gentile , knew the law given to mosses).

marks account 3.29-30
I tell who ever blasphemes against the holy spirtwill never be forgiven, he is guilty of an eternal sin.

he must of talk with the apostils, for v 30, given that he only talked to the crowd in parables, but talked openly to the apostils.

30 he said this because they were saying he had an evil spirit.

 

[Dan58]

Wow, I Didn't think my thread would be this huge of a debates and disagreements and arguments. LOL But this is CC, so what do you expect LOL.

Troublemaker

 

[Richie_2uk]

Troublemaker

Its good to stir up something I guess lol makes people rethink.

 

[royalscot]

history of time cant change, he gave you/me a bible with the fully account , . ie gave the future,(2014) the bible, now death has been conquered. change it now. lol

 

[SeaBass]

What my definition from Strong's wasn't good enough for you?

imputed: to reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over; to take into account, to make an account of; metaph. to pass to one's account, to impute; a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i.e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight; to number among, reckon with; to reckon or account; to reckon inward, count up or weigh the reasons, to deliberate; by reckoning up all the reasons, to gather or infer; to consider, take into account, weigh, meditate on; to suppose, deem, judge; to determine, purpose, decide

Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible: "to reckon, take into account", or metaphorically, "to put down to a person's account" [In the following, where the KJV has that rendering, the RV uses the verb "to reckon" which is far more suitable, Rom. 4:6 8,11,11,12,13; 2 Cor. 5:19; James 2:23]

So let's look at 'reckon' - the Greek word also - logizomai is properly used (a) of 'numerical calculation", e.g. Luke 22:37; (b) metaphorically, "by a reckoning of characteristics or reasons, to take into account", Rom. 2:26, "shall. . .be reckoned", RV (KJV "counted"), of "reckoning" uncircumcision for circumcision by God's estimate in contrast to that of the Jew regarding his own condition (v.3); in 4:3,5,6,9,11,22,23,24 of "reckoning" righteousness to persons, in all of which the RV uses the verb "to reckon" instead of the KJV "to count or to impute"; in verse 4 the subject is treated by way of contrast between grace and debt, which latter involves the "reckoning" of a reward for works; what is owed as a debt cannot be "reckoned" as a favor, but the faith of Abraham and his spiritual children sets them outside the category of those who seek to be justified by self effort, and vice versa, the latter [ those who seek to be justified by self effort] are excluded from the grace of righteousness bestowed on the sole condition of faith; so in Gal. 3:6 (RV, "was reckoned," KJV, "was accounted"); since Abraham, like all the natural descendants of Adam, was a sinner, he was destitute of righteousness in the sight of God; if, then, his relationship with God was to be rectified (i.e., if he was to be justified before God), the rectification could not be brought about by works of merit on his part; in James 2:23, RV, "reckoned," the subject is viewed from a different standpoint.

I was pointing out logizomai does not mean a 'transfusion' of Christ's righteousness into the sinner.

1 Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

What you do is what you are. If you do God's righteousness then you are righteous, If you do not do God's righteousness then you are unrighteous. Abraham was RECKONED righteousness because he DID righteousness in obeying God. Heb 11:8.17


Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

1 jn 3;12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Why was Able righteous? He did righteousness in obeying God in his offering

Why was Cain wicked? Because he did unrighteousness.


People are not labeled "righteous" or "unrighteous" for some unknown reason or randomly or because one was randomly "infused" with Christ's righteousness, but people are counted, reckoned, have righteousness put on their account for DOING RIGHTEOUSNESS>

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, only those lost in the error of ES can call obeying God an "excuse"

What. You better rethink what you said. Sinning is not obeying God. So how could it be an excuse.

When are you going to admit you HAVE NO EXCUSE FOR SIN, and stop trying to excuse it by just saying I am sorry.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The OSAS advocates don't say anything about change, from my understanding, their motto is that if you believe, your automatically saved, no matter what you do. That's my problem with it. I do agree that when a person accepts Christ as their personal Savior and their lives begin to take a new direction, salvation is not withheld. But that entails faith, not just a passive confession of belief.

I disagree with your definition of what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is. You don't need to replace the HS, you just need to go against it and deny it. A nonbeliever cannot blasphemy the Spirit, because they never believed in it in the first place. Only a believer can commit the sin. In other words, if a Christian is delivered-up before the antiChrist in the endtimes, and they deny the Holy Spirit, that's unforgivable. jmo.

A non believer is in the state of blasphiming the HS, they have called his convictions, His gospel. And his truth a lie. That is the true meaning of blasphemy.

 

[meli90]

Hell is eternal separation from the love of God. God is love so His love is unconditional. This verse you stated is conclusive in guaranteeing eternal salvation. The "us" that Paul was referring to is us as born again believers in Jesus and the belief in the promise that He made. Even a believer will often stumble and fall. When that happens the believer ask for forgiveness in order to be reconciled to the Lord to walk in His light, and is not attempting to renew his salvation.

His love is unconditional, but salvation is conditional. Yes, we will stumble and fall but whether we decide to live purposely in sin or not is a choice and dependent on us losing our salvation. I don't mean to sound rude, but you should study your bible more as to not fall in Satan's lie that "once saved, always saved."

 

[Richie_2uk]

His love is unconditional, but salvation is conditional. Yes, we will stumble and fall but whether we decide to live purposely in sin or not is a choice and dependent on us losing our salvation. I don't mean to sound rude, but you should study your bible more as to not fall in Satan's lie that "once saved, always saved."

Amen Sister. Until people realise this is a huge lie from the devil, then they will continue to fall for the father of lies all the more.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

His love is unconditional, but salvation is conditional. Yes, we will stumble and fall but whether we decide to live purposely in sin or not is a choice and dependent on us losing our salvation. I don't mean to sound rude, but you should study your bible more as to not fall in Satan's lie that "once saved, always saved."

Actually sis, Respectfuly, you need to study more. You claiming God will save someone he KNOWS will continue to live in sin. which causes two problems.

1. It mocks and denies the omniscience of God
2. It makes God out to make a mistake giving a gift, and not knowing they would fall into sin.
3. It makes salvation based on the law. Not on grace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen Sister. Until people realise this is a huge lie from the devil, then they will continue to fall for the father of lies all the more.

yep. And pharisees are still alive today. Placing themselves and their works above the work of God.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The Pharisees did not get yelled at and called hypocrites from Jesus because they put works before God.

They got yelled at because they perverted the law for their own financial gain, and for control.

Jesus told those who followed Him about the Pharisees saying, do as they say ( taught the law ), but do not do as they do ( twist and pervert the law ).

yep. And pharisees are still alive today. Placing themselves and their works above the work of God.

 

[Richie_2uk]

yep. And pharisees are still alive today. Placing themselves and their works above the work of God.

and the devil is still continuing to lie, and deceive many who believes in the lies.

 

[Atwood]

The Pharisees did not get yelled at and called hypocrites from Jesus because they put works before God.

They got yelled at because they perverted the law for their own financial gain, and for control.

What is your proof of that one?

Jesus told those who followed Him about the Pharisees saying, do as they say ( taught the law ), but do not do as they do ( twist and pervert the law ).

Well, Kenneth, that for me is a tough saying. We know that the Lord Jesus was at loggerheads with the Pharisees all the time, not doing as they said to do, neither having his disciples do what they said to do. So I am inclined to take that one as sarcasm.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Pharisees did not get yelled at and called hypocrites from Jesus because they put works before God.

They got yelled at because they perverted the law for their own financial gain, and for control.

Jesus told those who followed Him about the Pharisees saying, do as they say ( taught the law ), but do not do as they do ( twist and pervert the law ).

The pharisees rejected Christ because they did not think they needed a savior. There works made them holy. Thats why a man named SAUL killed christians, Until Christ set him straight.

The phairsees were mad aty jesus (like most legalists) because he told them all their hard work at following the law meant zero zip nada as far as salvation is concerned.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

and the devil is still continuing to lie, and deceive many who believes in the lies.

Yep.

Like I Can say a prayer and I am saved forever no matter what (lie 1) (liscentiousness)

And I can do all these great works and earn salvation. or not do enough works and lose salvation. (legalism)

Been satans lies since adam first sinned.