One taken,one left. The rapture.

[Absolutely]

I personally am not all caught up in the "Jewish Wedding [ceremony]"... I think a lot of passages are often misapplied, in those kinds of discussions; However I do see Scripture speaking of "Bride / Wife [singular]"... the "10 Virgins [or 5; plural]" who are not the "Bride / Wife [singular]"... and "the guests [plural]" who are also not the "Bride / Wife [singular]"... I see it speaking of "the Marriage" and of "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" which is distinct from "the Marriage" itself; and I see it speaking of, "... I betrothed you to one Husband, that I may present [G3936] you as A CHASTE VIRGIN [singular] to Christ," etc... etc...

So, in view of the things Scripture does say on such a Subject, one of the related passages states, "...and so [or, in this manner] shall [future tense] we ever be with [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord" (referring to a specific, future point-in-time / event, at the point in time when we corporately [all at the same time] will be "caught up / SNATCHED / raptured [IN THE AIR]"... not speaking to a "past" issue)

The the groom ( Jesus) takes the 5 wise virgins ( the church) into the wedding chamber, trough a door and , and the door is shut.

You keep saying " no, because he is only Rapturing one virgin in."

Well lets put that notion to rest

1) the church, billions of people are the bride. Not 5 people, not 1, but Billions.
By saying the parable is not the church, due to a missing Exact NUMBER OF "1" (virgin), then you have actually debunked your interpretation as well.!!!
Because in insisting that the only number possible to make it to church is just one virgin, when at the same time you are insisting these are 5 "bridesmaids" ,and, just friends of the Bride....?
Well, you are completely unaware that you were saying in that same model you're presenting that there are only five bridesmaids, or ,five Friends of the Bride (remember, your model is strict and based on sticking to the number presented, not what is the actual message of the PARABLE is.).
So what you've actually done is tortured the parable into making it what you need it to be.
IOW ,you claim ,it cannot possibly be the church taken into the marriage chamber, when that is what is actually VIVIDLY illustrated.


It is a PARABLE. which of itself, can easily be misread, if the FACTS OF THE PARABLE are omitted, added to, or reframed.

You go on to say " when the groom has returned from the wedding...."
And interpret that as the second coming.
Well ,at the rapture, the groom returns FROM THE WEDDING IN HEAVEN to fetch his bride.
He returns back to the wedding he has left, WITH HIS BRIDE.

So there is very little there for you to take your position.

To further complicate things, you are saying the bride and groom go into an immediate war after the marriage in heaven.
That is something you never factored in.
The Jewish newlywed was forbidden from war for an extended period of time.
So many things are against that model you insist on.
But it is bizarre how you try to make the bride of christ into a single person ( you say " it says virgin singular, not virgins , plural")

That would be as if i could never depict the truth.
I could never say in the company of other believers " hey, we are virgins before the Lord".

"Nope, only one virgin" would be your only response

Note Jesus addressing the bride;
33 And they said unto him, Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink?
34 And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them?
35 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

Are they virgins? Yes
Are they friends? Yes
Are they children of the bridechamber? Yes
Will they be at the marriage in heaven drinking wine? Yes
Did Jesus tell them that at the last supper. Yes

ARE THEY ONE VIRGIN, though many?.... YES.!!!!

 

[Absolutely]

Noah entered into the ark to be saved by water, would be the church enters into the air to be saved by the brightness of His coming.

The ark being the resurrection of the spiritual body of the church.

However, the wicked had no idea of the flood, and so neither of His 2nd coming judgement, which agrees with the ark being prepared for 70 years, but not entered until the last hour.

The problem with pre- or post-tribulation is that it does not distinguish between different kinds of tribulation on earth: one by the wrath of man upon the saints in persecution, that purifies the believers (Dan 12:8-13), and one by the wrath of God upon the wicked, that punishes the unbelievers (Rom 2:9).

As with Noah suffering decades in the world, before a quick coming of the flood after entering the ark, so the nation of Israel was suffering in Egypt for generations, being prepared for their return to the Promised Land, before a quick period of plagues upon the Egyptians from God to deliver them.

I believe the last great persecution of the the saints on earth will be prolonged, even to the last hour (Rev 14:6-14), before the resurrection of the church. and after the resurrection and ascension into the air, a quick period of plagues upon the inhabitors of the earth, as a prepping barrage for the Lord's return to each with His glorified saints to rule with a rod of iron.

In Rev 14, we see people still coming to and dying in the Lord even at the last hour before judgment of wrath.

And so, the last great tribulation period on earth before the Lord's return will be tribulation upon the church to purify the saints, concluding in the resurrection and ascension of the church into the air to meet with the Lord, followed by a quick succession of plagues from the air and the last great day of battle.

Uh no.
Israel entered into wondering in the wilderness and judgement before entering the promised land. Immediately following deliverance.
Also
If you leave out ,or omit the pretrib rapture verses, as every postribber has demonstrated, then postrib model works every time ....in ya'lls circles.

Only in your circles does all that omission work.

I need all verses on the table for analysis.
That is the berean way.

And BTW, The ark is a type of heaven, not resurrection.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The the groom ( Jesus) takes the 5 wise virgins ( the church) into the wedding chamber, trough a door and , and the door is shut.

The text states that the 5 Virgins "went in with [G3326 - accompanying (note: NOT "with [G4862 - UNIONed-with]) Him TO THE WEDDING FEAST [G1062]" (v.10)... same Greek word used in Matthew 22:10, where it states, "and the wedding hall [G1062] was furnished WITH GUESTS [PLURAL]" (<--that is NOT the intimate setting pertaining solely to the bridegroom and his bride/wife!! as I've pointed out to you in past posts )






[for the readers: "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" is the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (at least, its inauguration) which commences upon His "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19)... and corresponds with the "G347" used in both Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN from the wedding"... THEN the MEAL [G347], as well as Matt8:11 and its parallel, speaking of the EARTHLY MK age]

 

[RichMan]

1 Thessalonians 4:16 states the gathering of the saints will begin with the trump of God sounding.
1 Corinthians 15:52 states this gathering will take place at the last trump.
If there is a last trump there must be a first.
Revelation 8:2 states seven angles who stood before God were given seven trumps.
These angels sounded the trumps one after the other. First to last.

How do you make these Scripture agree if the gathering at the last trump takes place before the seven angles sound their seven trumps?

CONFESSION TIME

Paul, by the inspiration of God said the gathering of the saints would happen when the last trump of God is sounded.
I must confess, I believe him.

 

[Absolutely]

Noah entered into the ark to be saved by water, would be the church enters into the air to be saved by the brightness of His coming.

The ark being the resurrection of the spiritual body of the church.

However, the wicked had no idea of the flood, and so neither of His 2nd coming judgement, which agrees with the ark being prepared for 70 years, but not entered until the last hour.

The problem with pre- or post-tribulation is that it does not distinguish between different kinds of tribulation on earth: one by the wrath of man upon the saints in persecution, that purifies the believers (Dan 12:8-13), and one by the wrath of God upon the wicked, that punishes the unbelievers (Rom 2:9).

As with Noah suffering decades in the world, before a quick coming of the flood after entering the ark, so the nation of Israel was suffering in Egypt for generations, being prepared for their return to the Promised Land, before a quick period of plagues upon the Egyptians from God to deliver them.

I believe the last great persecution of the the saints on earth will be prolonged, even to the last hour (Rev 14:6-14), before the resurrection of the church. and after the resurrection and ascension into the air, a quick period of plagues upon the inhabitors of the earth, as a prepping barrage for the Lord's return to each with His glorified saints to rule with a rod of iron.

In Rev 14, we see people still coming to and dying in the Lord even at the last hour before judgment of wrath.

And so, the last great tribulation period on earth before the Lord's return will be tribulation upon the church to purify the saints, concluding in the resurrection and ascension of the church into the air to meet with the Lord, followed by a quick succession of plagues from the air and the last great day of battle.

Without factoring in the bride and groom component eschatology loses purpose.

That is exactly why postribs leave that component out.

The heartbeat of heaven, the very apex of what is next on heavens calendar, is the gathering of the bride.

How can an entire group of end times students omit the heartbeat of heaven.????

The heart of the second coming in the pretrib rapture...the groom fetching the bride ,to his fathers house?????
Flat out bizarre

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Well ,at the rapture, the groom returns FROM THE WEDDING IN HEAVEN to fetch his bride.

There is no "wedding [i.e. MARRIAGE]" without the "Bride / Wife"... your sentence doesn't even make reasonable sense.



(Yes, the presence of the "Bride / Wife" will be IN HEAVEN... and will be RETURNING "WITH [G4862] Him" to the earth, where the "wedding FEAST / SUPPER" [i.e. the EARTHLY MK age] will thereafter take place [esp its inauguration])

Again, consider the text which states, "and so [/IN THIS MANNER] shall WE ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord" (that is, by means of the "caught up / SNATCH / rapture [IN THE AIR]" event... not BEFORE that moment).




[for the readers: the "5 [wise] VirginS [PLURAL]" never LIFT OFF the earth, but are present THERE upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with [G4862] him in glory." Colossians 3:4






[for the readers: in Matt25, Jesus is not coming (for the purpose of) to "MARRY" 10 or 5 "virginS [PLURAL]"... that is not the purpose of this illustration / parable... such an idea actually MARS the true (overall) picture]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

CONFESSION TIME

Paul, by the inspiration of God said the gathering of the saints would happen when the last trump of God is sounded.
I must confess, I believe him.

I see the following mentions of "trumpet" as being DISTINCT from each other:

1) "the LAST trump / trumpet" (1Cor15:51-54; and 1Th4:16 "The Lord Himself... IN trumpet of God will descend...")

2) the SEVEN [judgment] trumpets (set of) ("with His mighty angels IN FLAMING FIRE INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON them that..." where it says, "IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels... INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON them that..." speaks to a SPANS of time with JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth)

3) the "GREAT trumpet" (Matthew 24:29-31 corresponding to that of Isaiah 27:[9,]12-13)

How do you make these Scripture agree if the gathering at the last trump takes place before the seven angles sound their seven trumps?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I need all verses on the table for analysis.
That is the berean way.

Why don't you follow the berea way and include all the verses that show that there is just ONE resurrection for the saved and it occurs "when He comes" per 1 Cor 15:23?

iow, practice what you preach.

And BTW, The ark is a type of heaven, not resurrection.

No, the ark is a type of the Savior, Jesus Christ Himself. Heaven doesn't save anyone. Only Jesus Christ is the Savior and saves.

You are rather confused on several levels.

 

[Jocund]

Here he is popping outta nowhere and gathering the Jews;
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The earth reaped during the gt.

Pssssst...that is BEFORE the second coming on horses

Postrib rapture is a fabrication that started with the church fathers, erroneously thinking they were in the gt.

I disagree.

Rev 14:16 is seemingly more compellingly understood as the harvest of the grapes of wrath.

I just completely shot it down.

I'd expect to see this exclamation if you had proven something to necessarily be the case. I don't see how your interpretation would be necessarily true and I don't see how the grapes of wrath interpretation would be necessarily untrue. Logic for logic, make your case!

 

[RichMan]

I see the following mentions of "trumpet" as being DISTINCT from each other:

1) "the LAST trump / trumpet" (1Cor15:51-54; and 1Th4:16 "The Lord Himself... IN trumpet of God will descend...")

2) the SEVEN [judgment] trumpets (set of) ("with His mighty angels IN FLAMING FIRE INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON them that..." where it says, "IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels... INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON them that..." speaks to a SPANS of time with JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth)

3) the "GREAT trumpet" (Matthew 24:29-31 corresponding to that of Isaiah 27:[9,]12-13)

OOO K
What did you say?
I do not understand.

 

[DavidTree]

Here is the Holy Spirt escalogical summation of the Bride & Groom:

Acts 1:4-11 , Acts 24:14-16 , Heb 9:27-28 , 1 Thess chs 1-4 , 2 Thess ch2 , 1 John ch2 -ch3 , 1 Cor 15 , Revelation ch1-22 ,

And while they were gathered together, He commanded them: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift the Father promised, which you have heard Me discuss. 5For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
The Ascension
(Mark 16:19–20; Luke 24:50–53)
6So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
9After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight. 10They were looking intently into the sky as He was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

I do confess to you, however, that I worship the God of our fathers according to the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, 15and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16In this hope, I strive always to maintain a clear conscience before God and man.

Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.

 

[Absolutely]

CONFESSION TIME

Paul, by the inspiration of God said the gathering of the saints would happen when the last trump of God is sounded.
I must confess, I believe him.

Amen
Sounded every year at the feast of trumpets.
Pretrib of course

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

RM said: "... when the last trump of God is sounded."

Amen
Sounded every year at the feast of trumpets.
Pretrib of course

Would you say that the first trumpet was also sounded then (on that day) too?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Amen
Sounded every year at the feast of trumpets.
Pretrib of course

Seems you see "pretrib rapture" EVERYWHERE except in the Bible.

No verse describes Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. At any time. Not even after the Tribulation, when ALL the believers will be resurrected/given glorified bodies.

 

[Absolutely]

The text states that the 5 Virgins "went in with [G3326 - accompanying (note: NOT "with [G4862 - UNIONed-with]) Him TO THE WEDDING FEAST [G1062]" (v.10)... same Greek word used in Matthew 22:10, where it states, "and the wedding hall [G1062] was furnished WITH GUESTS [PLURAL]" (<--that is NOT the intimate setting pertaining solely to the bridegroom and his bride/wife!! as I've pointed out to you in past posts )






[for the readers: "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" is the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (at least, its inauguration) which commences upon His "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19)... and corresponds with the "G347" used in both Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN from the wedding"... THEN the MEAL [G347], as well as Matt8:11 and its parallel, speaking of the EARTHLY MK age]

"""...Him TO THE WEDDING FEAST [G1062]" (v.10)... same Greek word used in Matthew 22:10, where it states, "and the wedding hall [G1062] was furnished WITH GUESTS [PLURAL]" (<--that is NOT the intimate setting pertaining solely to the bridegroom and his bride/wife!! as I've pointed out to you in past posts"""
Not true
You did NOT RESEARCH IT !!!!

THE TRUTH is it is interchangeable.

Research " marriage"
Here is one;

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
amos
gamos
G1062
n_ Nom Sg m
MARRIAGE
matrimony

SAME EXACT WORD...Nothing there of a feast or supper.

But see what you did????
You inadvertantly placed the SUPPER IN HEAVEN...because it can mean either.
IOW...the supper is at the wedding!!!!
Thanks DW!!!

You just proved the wedding feast is in heaven alongside the marriage.
( same word)

 

[Absolutely]

Would you say that the first trumpet was also sounded then (on that day) too?

i don't think so.
I think trumpets feast lasts many days.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

i don't think so.
I think trumpets feast lasts many days.

It seems to me that you are thinking of OTHER ones, such as "the feast of Tabernacles," where it says of THAT feast:

Lev23 -

33And the LORD said to Moses, 34“Speak to the Israelites and say, ‘On the fifteenth day of the seventh month the Feast of Tabernaclesg to the LORD begins, and it continues for seven days. 35On the first day there shall be a sacred assembly. You must not do any regular work. 36For seven days you are to present an offering made by fire to the LORD. On the eighth day you are to hold a sacred assembly and present an offering made by fire to the LORD. It is a solemn assembly; you must not do any regular work.




But where vv.23-25 had said, of Trumpets, this:

23The LORD also said to Moses, 24“Speak to the Israelites and say, ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of rest, a sacred assembly announced by trumpet blasts.e 25You must not do any regular work, but you are to present an offering made by fire to the LORD.’ ”


...and where Numbers 29:1-6 says of it:

1“On the first day of the seventh month, you are to hold a sacred assembly, and you must not do any regular work. This will be a day for you to sound the trumpets.

2As a pleasing aroma to the LORD, you are to present a burnt offering of one young bull, one ram, and seven male lambs a year old, all unblemished, 3together with their grain offerings of fine flour mixed with oil—three-tenths of an ephaha with the bull, two-tenths of an ephahb with the ram, 4and a tenth of an ephahc with each of the seven male lambs.

5Include one male goat as a sin offering to make atonement for you. 6These are in addition to the monthly and daily burnt offerings with their prescribed grain offerings and drink offerings. They are a pleasing aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD.







[for the readers: I see the CONTEXT of the wording in Matthew 24:36 to be referring to His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (NOT to "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")... so any supposed reference to a Jewish "idiom" would factor as applying somehow TO THAT (i.e. His Second Coming to the earth and the events surrounding THAT), and NOT to "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"-timing... which I've explained in past posts I see as more connected with the FIRST (of TWO [DISTINCT]) mention of "firstfruit" in Leviticus 23, connected with the EARLIER "harvest," as opposed to the SECOND mention of "firstfruit" in that chapter, connected to the later "WHEAT" harvest, which is harvested by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement) and referred to in v.17's wording "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (<--those ain't US!), whereas the EARLIER harvest, is harvested by means of "tossing INTO THE AIR" and "BLOWING away the chaff"]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

OOO K
What did you say?
I do not understand.

Okay, notice the wording regarding some of the set of "SEVEN [judgment] trumpets":

Revelation 8:13 -

"And I looked, and I heard one eagle flying in mid-heaven, saying in a loud voice, "Woe! Woe! Woe to those dwelling on the earth, because of the remaining voices of the trumpet of the three angels being about to sound their trumpets!""
- https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/8-13.htm

Note that this specifically states (as part of the "set of SEVEN"... of the 3 remaining ones at that point in the chronology), "of the trumpet OF THE THREE ANGELS"... not stating "the trumpet OF GOD".


I do not believe "the trumpet of God" is the "last" of the "SEVEN [judgment] trumpets" in Revelation... but is completely distinct from those.

Same for the "GREAT trumpet" (Matt24:29-31 = Isa27:[9,]12-13<--no one is being "caught UP / SNATCHED / raptured [IN THE AIR--TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR]" in such a context)

 

[DavidTree]

Okay, notice the wording regarding some of the set of "SEVEN [judgment] trumpets":

Revelation 8:13 -

"And I looked, and I heard one eagle flying in mid-heaven, saying in a loud voice, "Woe! Woe! Woe to those dwelling on the earth, because of the remaining voices of the trumpet of the three angels being about to sound their trumpets!""
- https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/8-13.htm

Note that this specifically states (as part of the "set of SEVEN"... of the 3 remaining ones at that point in the chronology), "of the trumpet OF THE THREE ANGELS"... not stating "the trumpet OF GOD".


I do not believe "the trumpet of God" is the "last" of the "SEVEN [judgment] trumpets" in Revelation... but is completely distinct from those.

Same for the "GREAT trumpet" (Matt24:29-31 = Isa27:[9,]12-13<--no one is being "caught UP / SNATCHED / raptured [IN THE AIR--TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR]" in such a context)

The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised up his hand to heaven
6and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer,
7but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound,
the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.
Rev 10:5-7