One taken,one left. The rapture.

[FreeGrace2]

I understand what the discussion is about.
You mentioned how we know from Scripture that believers "will be gathered up to meet the Lord in the air, along with all the saints already dead, and be changed".
But I was seeking your explanation of what "we will be changed" means. What will we be changed into?

Well, I'll explain again. At the resurrection, all the dead saints will be resurrected with glorified bodies. But, since the living believers can't be resurrected in the sense of being raised to life again, they will simply be changed.

iow, their mortal bodies will take on immortality. That means they will get their glorified bodies too.

1 Cor 15-
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

This is what Paul meant in v.52 about being "changed in the twinkling of an eye".

So, at the resurrection of all believers, every believer receives an immortal body, or as Peter said, an imperishable one.

1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Notice how we have been born again; with imperishable seed. We will actually receive an imperishable body at the resurrection.

 

[Dino246]

I understand what you mean by how some people blow it out of proportion.
As for you, personally, where do you stand on the issue of the rapture (it's verity/timing/etc)?

I don't take a position. I have not studied the matter in detail, but from my general reading of Scripture, I don't see a strong case either for or against.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I don't take a position. I have not studied the matter in detail, but from my general reading of Scripture, I don't see a strong case either for or against.

It's not like rocket science, you know. Just read the Olivet Discourse in Matt. 24-25 and take it as what it is first. When Jesus said in 24:29-31 that "immediately after the Tribulation" He'll return and gather the elect, that's the real rapture. And before that He repeated warned that many false christs will rise, don't believe in any one of them. He won't "secretly" appear in anywhere, He'll descend from heaven the way He ascended to heaven.

Actually, that's what the Jews in the 1st century had envisioned. They were expecting their Messiah to come down from heaven and establish His everlasting kingdom as a glorious king, but that's the SECOND coming, not the first. Now we should be expecting that, but dispensationalists are preaching this "secret rapture", that He'll just pop out of nowhere and snap His church out of the earth. They've just flipped the order, and that's tragic.

 

[Dino246]

It's not like rocket science, you know. Just read the Olivet Discourse in Matt. 24-25 and take it as what it is first. When Jesus said in 24:29-31 that "immediately after the Tribulation" He'll return and gather the elect, that's the real rapture. And before that He repeated warned that many false christs will rise, don't believe in any one of them. He won't "secretly" appear in anywhere, He'll descend from heaven the way He ascended to heaven.

Actually, that's what the Jews in the 1st century had envisioned. They were expecting their Messiah to come down from heaven and establish His everlasting kingdom as a glorious king, but that's the SECOND coming, not the first. Now we should be expecting that, but dispensationalists are preaching this "secret rapture", that He'll just pop out of nowhere and snap His church out of the earth. They've just flipped the order, and that's tragic.

With respect, I'm not going to be swayed either way by a two-paragraph summary of anyone's particular views.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I fully embrace the fact that: "HE who has the Bride is the BrideGroom" John 3:29

So... you agree that "the FRIEND of the bridegroom" [JtB] is not [part of] "the Bride / Wife" either? John 3:29


[for the readers: see my Post #195 - https://christianchat.com/threads/one-taken-one-left-the-rapture.204441/post-4795064 ]

 

[Absolutely]

Rapture ........NO

His protection .......YES
The ark 4 Noah,the Angel 4 Lot.

Why do ppl believe this?

Nowhere in scripture has he ever zapped a nation or multitudes of ppl out of existence

Enoch & Elijah yes. But no one else,even though we do see Moses at the transfiguration. He died,however!

So at mount of transfiguration we see one translated bc he walked with God and God took him. The other @ the mount died yet @ some point after Michael wrestled with the devil for his body we see Moses, resurrected!

The 2 witnesses
Jesus himself in acts one.

Just floated up exactly like noah did and the church will as vividly descrided in 1 thes 4

 

[FreeGrace2]

With respect, I'm not going to be swayed either way by a two-paragraph summary of anyone's particular views.

These verses are what convinces me. They are straightforward.

These are the facts from Scripture that are my “ready answer for what and why” I believe what the Bible teaches regarding end times.

1. The Bible teaches that there will be just one resurrection of the saved.

• Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
• Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
• Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
• 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

These verses all describe the resurrection of the saved in the singular; that means one resurrection.

2. The Bible teaches that there will be one resurrection of the unsaved.
- Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

3. The Bible teaches when the resurrection of the saved will be.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So, this single resurrection will occur “when He comes”. The Bible clearly says when that will be.

4. The resurrection of the saved will include EVERY believer from Adam forward.

• 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. It is obvious that every person who has believed in Christ do belong to Him.

5. The Bible teaches that the single resurrection of the saved will occur “when He comes” which is shown in 2 verses.

• 2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, The context from ch 1 shows this “coming” is the Second Advent.
• Rev 20:4,5 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

So we see in v.5 that the resurrection of tribulation martyrs is “the first resurrection”. The parentheses at the beginning of v.5 refers to all unbelievers who will be in the second resurrection, which will occur at the end of the Millennial Reign of Christ, for the GWT judgment in Rev 20:11-15.

Rev 20:5 tells us clearly that all believers, or “those who belong to Him” will be resurrected “when He comes” and Rev 20 shows that to be at the end of the Tribulation.

6. Finally, there are no verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven ever. This is the foundation for the “pretrib rapture” teaching.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The 2 witnesses
Jesus himself in acts one.

Just floated up exactly like noah did and the church will as vividly descrided in 1 thes 4

This is just so funny.

So Jesus and the 2W "floated up EXACTLY like Noah did. Really?

Jesus was lifted up to heaven on a cloud. NOT from a flood.

The 2W were lifted up to heaven on a cloud. NOT from a flood.

And yet you say "EXACTLY".

Not even close, actually.

Both Jesus and the 2W were taken to heaven. Not just clouds to get away from earth for a while. Noah came back to earth. Actually he NEVER really left earth.

btw, there is NO evidence in Revelation that either of the 2W received a glorified body when they stood on their feet.

And, 1 Cor 15:23 tells us very clearly that ALL believers (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected (get glorified bodies) "when He comes", which Rev 20:5 indicates at the Second Advent.

So you have no case.

 

[DavidTree]

So... you agree that "the FRIEND of the bridegroom" [JtB] is not [part of] "the Bride / Wife" either? John 3:29


[for the readers: see my Post #195 - https://christianchat.com/threads/one-taken-one-left-the-rapture.204441/post-4795064 ]

Why was John the 'friend' and not the 'Bride'?

 

[DavidTree]

So... you agree that "the FRIEND of the bridegroom" [JtB] is not [part of] "the Bride / Wife" either? John 3:29


[for the readers: see my Post #195 - https://christianchat.com/threads/one-taken-one-left-the-rapture.204441/post-4795064 ]

Readers may examine Post #190 & #196

 

[Absolutely]

It's not like rocket science, you know. Just read the Olivet Discourse in Matt. 24-25 and take it as what it is first. When Jesus said in 24:29-31 that "immediately after the Tribulation" He'll return and gather the elect, that's the real rapture. And before that He repeated warned that many false christs will rise, don't believe in any one of them. He won't "secretly" appear in anywhere, He'll descend from heaven the way He ascended to heaven.

Actually, that's what the Jews in the 1st century had envisioned. They were expecting their Messiah to come down from heaven and establish His everlasting kingdom as a glorious king, but that's the SECOND coming, not the first. Now we should be expecting that, but dispensationalists are preaching this "secret rapture", that He'll just pop out of nowhere and snap His church out of the earth. They've just flipped the order, and that's tragic.

We all believe Jesus returns after the tribulation. We all believe that.
I never heard of a secret rapture until postribbers invented that one.
But is there a post somewhere were you defend a post-trib Rapture or some verse pointing to a post-trib rapture?

 

[FreeGrace2]

We all believe Jesus returns after the tribulation. We all believe that.

Why don't pretribbers believe Rev 20:5, which tells us the resurrection of trib martyrs is the FIRST resurrection?

And the fact that the Bible teaches there is just ONE resurrection of the saved and one of the unsaved. Acts 24:15.

I never heard of a secret rapture until postribbers invented that one.
But is there a post somewhere were you defend a post-trib Rapture or some verse pointing to a post-trib rapture?

There is no trip to heaven after receiving a glorified body. That will occur "when He comes" (1 Cor 15:23) and that will be at the Second Advent (Rev 20:4,5).

 

[Absolutely]

It's not like rocket science, you know. Just read the Olivet Discourse in Matt. 24-25 and take it as what it is first. When Jesus said in 24:29-31 that "immediately after the Tribulation" He'll return and gather the elect, that's the real rapture. And before that He repeated warned that many false christs will rise, don't believe in any one of them. He won't "secretly" appear in anywhere, He'll descend from heaven the way He ascended to heaven.

Actually, that's what the Jews in the 1st century had envisioned. They were expecting their Messiah to come down from heaven and establish His everlasting kingdom as a glorious king, but that's the SECOND coming, not the first. Now we should be expecting that, but dispensationalists are preaching this "secret rapture", that He'll just pop out of nowhere and snap His church out of the earth. They've just flipped the order, and that's tragic.

Here he is popping outta nowhere and gathering the Jews;
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The earth reaped during the gt.

Pssssst...that is BEFORE the second coming on horses

Postrib rapture is a fabrication that started with the church fathers, erroneously thinking they were in the gt.

I just completely shot it down.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Postrib rapture is a fabrication that started with the church fathers, erroneously thinking they were in the gt.

I have shown the verses that clearly teach there will be ONE resurrection for all believers. You've seen them; or at least have the opportunity to see them. Rev 20:5 proves that this one resurrection will occur "when He comes" which is after the Trib.

I just completely shot it down.

These facts shoot down any notion of a pretrib rapture.

btw, there is NO TRIP to heaven in a glorified body. And you KNOW the Bible says nothing about such a trip.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

B.) At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
C.) And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Matt ch24

Knowing your ABC's is the Straight Path to Truth

Readers may examine Post #190 & #196

Matthew 24:29-31's "GREAT trumpet" corresponds with what was said in Isaiah 27:[9,]12-13 (quoted in part, below) -

"12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem. [i.e. gathered ONE BY ONE... not "AS ONE" as WE will be at the time of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"; note (besides "in what MANNER" as I've pointed out, see also) "to WHERE"... and "by WHOM" they will be "gathered"... and that this is speaking of those who've been scattered (to the four winds), which is not the case regarding "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [/US]; note the correspondence between v.9 and Romans 11:27 [re: the "WHO"] and how these passages both correspond with the prophecy regarding "thy [Daniel's] people, and [upon] thy [Daniel's] holy city" being covered in Dan9:24-27; bearing in mind the numerous "UNTIL [/TILL]" passages regarding same... for example, Hosea 5:14-6:3's [from the perspective in time of His ascension] "I will go and return to My place TILL they acknowledge their offence, and seek My face: IN THEIR AFFLICTION they WILL seek Me early" and the "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day" [again, from the perspective of His ascension point in time]);


IOW, Matthew 24:29-31 is not a "rapture / SNATCH / caught up [IN THE AIR]" passage, but rather corresponds with His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (as ALL "Son of man cometh / coming / shall come / coming of / etc" passages speak to--i.e. His earthly designation); NOWHERE in Jesus' Olivet Discourse is He covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" (rather, His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the EARTH)

 

[ATG]

Mat 24
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Luke 17
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left

Pretrib rapture.

 

[ATG]

In both lot, and noah the righteous were dealt with first.

Noah ushered into the ark preflood

Lot removed to another location pre judgement.
Jesus did not frame either as post judgement deliverances.

Same deal with the baby Jesus. He was removed and ushered into Egypt before the slaughter of The Unborn bye Herod. Which would be yet another pre-trib pre-judgement dynamic. A principle that God removes his people prior 2 judging the wicked.

Noah entered into the ark to be saved by water, would be the church enters into the air to be saved by the brightness of His coming.

The ark being the resurrection of the spiritual body of the church.

However, the wicked had no idea of the flood, and so neither of His 2nd coming judgement, which agrees with the ark being prepared for 70 years, but not entered until the last hour.

The problem with pre- or post-tribulation is that it does not distinguish between different kinds of tribulation on earth: one by the wrath of man upon the saints in persecution, that purifies the believers (Dan 12:8-13), and one by the wrath of God upon the wicked, that punishes the unbelievers (Rom 2:9).

As with Noah suffering decades in the world, before a quick coming of the flood after entering the ark, so the nation of Israel was suffering in Egypt for generations, being prepared for their return to the Promised Land, before a quick period of plagues upon the Egyptians from God to deliver them.

I believe the last great persecution of the the saints on earth will be prolonged, even to the last hour (Rev 14:6-14), before the resurrection of the church. and after the resurrection and ascension into the air, a quick period of plagues upon the inhabitors of the earth, as a prepping barrage for the Lord's return to each with His glorified saints to rule with a rod of iron.

In Rev 14, we see people still coming to and dying in the Lord even at the last hour before judgment of wrath.

And so, the last great tribulation period on earth before the Lord's return will be tribulation upon the church to purify the saints, concluding in the resurrection and ascension of the church into the air to meet with the Lord, followed by a quick succession of plagues from the air and the last great day of battle.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Here he is popping outta nowhere and gathering the Jews;
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The earth reaped during the gt.

Pssssst...that is BEFORE the second coming on horses

Postrib rapture is a fabrication that started with the church fathers, erroneously thinking they were in the gt.

I just completely shot it down.

While what makes you think that’s pre-trib? In the last chapter the Antichrist and the False Prophet are already setting up the image of the Beast and marking all earth dwellers. That “reaping” is a symbolic assembling of His followers whom He has sealed. They will be protected from the wrath like the Israelites during the ten plagues, while the rest of the world receives the bowl judgement. That has nothing to do with “rapture”.

 

[DavidTree]

Matthew 24:29-31's "GREAT trumpet" corresponds with what was said in Isaiah 27:[9,]12-13 (quoted in part, below) -

"12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem. [i.e. gathered ONE BY ONE... not "AS ONE" as WE will be at the time of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"; note (besides "in what MANNER" as I've pointed out, see also) "to WHERE"... and "by WHOM" they will be "gathered"... and that this is speaking of those who've been scattered (to the four winds), which is not the case regarding "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [/US]; note the correspondence between v.9 and Romans 11:27 [re: the "WHO"] and how these passages both correspond with the prophecy regarding "thy [Daniel's] people, and [upon] thy [Daniel's] holy city" being covered in Dan9:24-27; bearing in mind the numerous "UNTIL [/TILL]" passages regarding same... for example, Hosea 5:14-6:3's [from the perspective in time of His ascension] "I will go and return to My place TILL they acknowledge their offence, and seek My face: IN THEIR AFFLICTION they WILL seek Me early" and the "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day" [again, from the perspective of His ascension point in time]);


IOW, Matthew 24:29-31 is not a "rapture / SNATCH / caught up [IN THE AIR]" passage, but rather corresponds with His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (as ALL "Son of man cometh / coming / shall come / coming of / etc" passages speak to--i.e. His earthly designation); NOWHERE in Jesus' Olivet Discourse is He covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" (rather, His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the EARTH)

The LORD's Second Coming = Matthew chapter 24

Bride of Ha Moshiach asks Moshiach: While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately.
“Tell us,” they said, (Bride speaking to HaMoshiach) “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

Ha Moshiach says: "Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you."

Return to Post #190 for the ABC's of Christ's Second Coming and the gathering of His Elect(Bride).

Study who the 'elect' of Christ are.

Reference the Bible to find the Truth.

Today's clues are: Colossians ch3 and 1 Peter ch2 and Romans ch9

 

[DavidTree]

Noah entered into the ark to be saved by water, would be the church enters into the air to be saved by the brightness of His coming.

The ark being the resurrection of the spiritual body of the church.

However, the wicked had no idea of the flood, and so neither of His 2nd coming judgement, which agrees with the ark being prepared for 70 years, but not entered until the last hour.

The problem with pre- or post-tribulation is that it does not distinguish between different kinds of tribulation on earth: one by the wrath of man upon the saints in persecution, that purifies the believers (Dan 12:8-13), and one by the wrath of God upon the wicked, that punishes the unbelievers (Rom 2:9).

As with Noah suffering decades in the world, before a quick coming of the flood after entering the ark, so the nation of Israel was suffering in Egypt for generations, being prepared for their return to the Promised Land, before a quick period of plagues upon the Egyptians from God to deliver them.

I believe the last great persecution of the the saints on earth will be prolonged, even to the last hour (Rev 14:6-14), before the resurrection of the church. and after the resurrection and ascension into the air, a quick period of plagues upon the inhabitors of the earth, as a prepping barrage for the Lord's return to each with His glorified saints to rule with a rod of iron.

In Rev 14, we see people still coming to and dying in the Lord even at the last hour before judgment of wrath.

And so, the last great tribulation period on earth before the Lord's return will be tribulation upon the church to purify the saints, concluding in the resurrection and ascension of the church into the air to meet with the Lord, followed by a quick succession of plagues from the air and the last great day of battle.

There is only one singular Return or Second Coming of Christ.

All pre-trib error (LIE) came from the mouth of satan and NEVER came out of the mouth of God.

There is not one Scripture verse that says or claims or proclaims any pre-trib rapture.

ALL Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation deny and oppose the lie of pre-trib rapture.

$1,000 Reward for anyone who can find from Scripture: the Prophets, Jesus or teh Apostles proclaiming a pre-trib rapture of His Elect/Saints before His Second Coming.