Love is never doey gooey. It is strong, uplifting, brave, and truthful, it never snarls, destroys, or tears down. It gives a helping hand, it never strikes.
Only one true church in the bible.
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T
Tintin
Guest
I've never heard of such churches, although I don't see anything wrong with some lively music offered unto God.
Anyone who is a Christian is part of the body of Christ. The body is the church which is the church of Christ. The Christian church is the only true church.
Ok, now that I have calmed down I will try to explain a few things. I am sorry I lashed out considering I am guilty of bashing other beliefs(most of us are), and when you see a group bashing yours you suddenly understand why others get offended. Thats why I dont normally argue Revelation, tongues, miracles, ect....its offensive, and if you are offending then you sure aren't teaching.
One big problem I had(and I will not name names, that is irrelevant) is I saw a few on here I respect, and seem to respect me. We agree on pretty much everything and get along great. Then suddenly Church of Christ is mentioned and they go on a long dissertation on how they are wrong. So that tells me something is wrong here. What is interesting is there is a minister who frequents CC. I hardly ever see anyone argue with him, and he seems to be quite respected. Yet some of you who agree with him and get along with him like you do me have no clue he is CoC.
Feel free to disagree, but after YEARS of studying this is how my little brain understand scripture. Yes, the CoC has a bad reputation. Alot of the reason for this is back in the 1950s there was a small group of CoC disgruntled elders who taught "if you aren't CoC then you are going to Heaven"....well, their words spread like wildfire, and suddenly everyone thought that is what the CoC believed. While on the surface it looks like the CoC may hold these beliefs it is much deeper than that. The problem many people have is not understanding what the bible says and taking the preachers word for it.
When it comes to instrumental music it is not at all condemned, but scriptures do not clearly say they are to be used in worship. Psalms could be used to validate the use of instruments being as Psalms is classified as law( luke 24:44), but then animal sacrifices would still be permitted. So resurrecting the use of instruments with Psalms would mean we need to resurrect other things within the book.
As I stated earlier there is no evidence that instrumental music used in worship. The NT only mentions vocal singing. If someone can show me scripture where early Christians used instruments in worship then please show me. I know the apostles didnt spread the gospel by the use of them, nor did they glorify God by using them. So to me the use of instruments is a human addition to worship which on the surface there is nothing wrong with it, but can open the door to other human additions. Before you know it you are worshiping how you want to, and not under the authority of Christ. In other words Christ never authorized the use of instruments in worship.
Another thing is edification with instruments. Now if one has a natural talent then I really can't argue with them. They are using their talent to glorify God, but to me practicing songs is more of a performance than an edification. I am not a great singer. I don't have a professional voice, and to be honest I probably can be compared to a frog on crack singing than an angelic voice. I could practice and take lessons to make my voice better, but do you really think God cares that my voice isn't that of an opera singer? Im not bashing those who may take voice lessons, but when it comes to God he created your voice. You may not like what you sound like, but to God I am sure that screeching banshee singing of Amazing grace is wonderful to Him. So in other words if you have to practice in order to play in front of a congregation that is more of a performance. Others may be edified by a band, but what about the souls of the band members? Is their heart really in it?
Now if you can honestly worship and glorify the Lord while using instruments, and you become spiritually stronger by them instead of distracted and you aren't concentrating on the wrong things then by all means go for it, but for me I prefer acapella. I guess this is a conviction of mine, and it is my choice to refrain. Again I am not condemning anyone that uses instruments. I sometimes listen to christian music and choirs on youtube, and often catch myself paying more attenion to how cool the instruments sound than the words sung to glorify God. To me thats bad. I am concentraing on the wrong thing so for my sake I need to keep with acapella.
What I have said is my understanding, and I will respect anyone who disagrees. Do not think I am like that OP that has the attitude of a Pharisee and thinks that if you dont think like I do then you will go to Hell. I didn't post here to tell you I am right and you are wrong. I posted to explain why I refrain.
I hope this shines a better light on what many in the CoC(including myself) believe. It is not to condemn as was originally presented.
One big problem I had(and I will not name names, that is irrelevant) is I saw a few on here I respect, and seem to respect me. We agree on pretty much everything and get along great. Then suddenly Church of Christ is mentioned and they go on a long dissertation on how they are wrong. So that tells me something is wrong here. What is interesting is there is a minister who frequents CC. I hardly ever see anyone argue with him, and he seems to be quite respected. Yet some of you who agree with him and get along with him like you do me have no clue he is CoC.
Feel free to disagree, but after YEARS of studying this is how my little brain understand scripture. Yes, the CoC has a bad reputation. Alot of the reason for this is back in the 1950s there was a small group of CoC disgruntled elders who taught "if you aren't CoC then you are going to Heaven"....well, their words spread like wildfire, and suddenly everyone thought that is what the CoC believed. While on the surface it looks like the CoC may hold these beliefs it is much deeper than that. The problem many people have is not understanding what the bible says and taking the preachers word for it.
When it comes to instrumental music it is not at all condemned, but scriptures do not clearly say they are to be used in worship. Psalms could be used to validate the use of instruments being as Psalms is classified as law( luke 24:44), but then animal sacrifices would still be permitted. So resurrecting the use of instruments with Psalms would mean we need to resurrect other things within the book.
As I stated earlier there is no evidence that instrumental music used in worship. The NT only mentions vocal singing. If someone can show me scripture where early Christians used instruments in worship then please show me. I know the apostles didnt spread the gospel by the use of them, nor did they glorify God by using them. So to me the use of instruments is a human addition to worship which on the surface there is nothing wrong with it, but can open the door to other human additions. Before you know it you are worshiping how you want to, and not under the authority of Christ. In other words Christ never authorized the use of instruments in worship.
Another thing is edification with instruments. Now if one has a natural talent then I really can't argue with them. They are using their talent to glorify God, but to me practicing songs is more of a performance than an edification. I am not a great singer. I don't have a professional voice, and to be honest I probably can be compared to a frog on crack singing than an angelic voice. I could practice and take lessons to make my voice better, but do you really think God cares that my voice isn't that of an opera singer? Im not bashing those who may take voice lessons, but when it comes to God he created your voice. You may not like what you sound like, but to God I am sure that screeching banshee singing of Amazing grace is wonderful to Him. So in other words if you have to practice in order to play in front of a congregation that is more of a performance. Others may be edified by a band, but what about the souls of the band members? Is their heart really in it?
Now if you can honestly worship and glorify the Lord while using instruments, and you become spiritually stronger by them instead of distracted and you aren't concentrating on the wrong things then by all means go for it, but for me I prefer acapella. I guess this is a conviction of mine, and it is my choice to refrain. Again I am not condemning anyone that uses instruments. I sometimes listen to christian music and choirs on youtube, and often catch myself paying more attenion to how cool the instruments sound than the words sung to glorify God. To me thats bad. I am concentraing on the wrong thing so for my sake I need to keep with acapella.
What I have said is my understanding, and I will respect anyone who disagrees. Do not think I am like that OP that has the attitude of a Pharisee and thinks that if you dont think like I do then you will go to Hell. I didn't post here to tell you I am right and you are wrong. I posted to explain why I refrain.
I hope this shines a better light on what many in the CoC(including myself) believe. It is not to condemn as was originally presented.
1
1still_waters
Guest
I posted this earlier in the thread.
For years I've been unable to answer CoC on the instruments thing, because yeah, technically the NT doesn't show instruments. And yeah, ok Psalms is OT.
But the below kinda just dawned on em today....
Jesus instructs us to pray that his will would be done on Earth as it is in heaven.
As you can see, in heaven, they use instruments for worship.
Rev 15
T
Tintin
Guest
Good post, Elizabeth. I don't agree with everything you've written but thanks for putting it out there. As for why the band etc. practices before the church service, that's so they hone their craft and can offer their best to God. If you're leading worship in songs etc. it's necessary that it doesn't distract from singing to God. I don't know of anyone who practices their singing or instruments for prideful reasons, it's just to improve in the craft with the gifts, skills and abilities God has gifted them.
Great point there kind sir...
I am not going to argue and say you are wrong, but the harp in revelation..is it a literal harp or symbolic?
1
1still_waters
Guest
So I guess if there were instruments in the OT, and there are instruments in heaven, then that seems to establish a pretty good case for instruments. Why exclude them now?
Thats the issue with me personally. Someone rehearsing can come across as not being genuine.
Of course on the other hand when a minister prepares his message to the congregation he likely goes over the sermon a few times. I don't know many that would just wing it. lol.
1
1still_waters
Guest
1
1still_waters
Guest
Well it's literally in heaven. I'd reckon if it's being done in heaven, it's about as close to his will as ya can get.
I love a capella music, as I am also a singer and worship leader. But I prefer variety, whether in genre, orchestration or part singing. But each to their own. How a church worships is a preference choice. But I do worry that CoC thinks it is a Biblical choice.
I do get that some churches want to err on the side of caution. If it is not in the Bible, don't do it. As opposed to - if it is not in the Bible, then it probably isn't wrong. But with the advent of modern technology, there are lots of things not mentioned in the Bible, but they do glorify God in the right situation. From movies to the Internet, God can be glorified, or sin instead.
Other than that, my strong reaction was to the OP, not you Elizabeth. I think it has been said, that the church is anyone who believes in Christ. Fellowshipping has to be part of that, to saying nothing of teaching the Word of God, and encouraging people in discipleship. My CoC friends were all mature Christians, and they must have gotten some of that along the way in the CoC. (They were in our church because there is no CoC church locally!)
I do get that some churches want to err on the side of caution. If it is not in the Bible, don't do it. As opposed to - if it is not in the Bible, then it probably isn't wrong. But with the advent of modern technology, there are lots of things not mentioned in the Bible, but they do glorify God in the right situation. From movies to the Internet, God can be glorified, or sin instead.
Other than that, my strong reaction was to the OP, not you Elizabeth. I think it has been said, that the church is anyone who believes in Christ. Fellowshipping has to be part of that, to saying nothing of teaching the Word of God, and encouraging people in discipleship. My CoC friends were all mature Christians, and they must have gotten some of that along the way in the CoC. (They were in our church because there is no CoC church locally!)
I dunno. PEople are always arguing what is literal and symbolic, just thought I would throw that out there.
Besides, I said I wasnt gonna argue with you and you made good points, but did the first century church use harps? I am not trying to be difficult here. Seriously wanting to know. What did the apostles say about harps and other instruments?
There are many things not mentioned in scripture, but we have to discern whether it is accepted and if it affects how we worship. For me personally instruments is too much of a distraction so naturally I am going to go to an acapella church.
The first century church worshiped in houses. They didnt building church buildings so we need to ask if it affects how we worship. Is it wrong or is it a man-made idea.(not condemning church buildings, i go to one)
The bible doesnt say play with snakes in worship so do we need to? Yeah I know, silly example but for me I have to think about what I am doing so I dont get distracted and I am worshiping according to Gods will. If I am adding something to how I worship without authority then I am wrong.
It is God's will for us to have joy in our hearts and love for the Lord. For me that is playing the piano.
T
Tintin
Guest
This is curious because a capella music can still be used for non-godly purposes. Anything can really. Well, I guess you have your convictions and I have mine. By the way, I know they're not a Christian group, but what do you think of Pentatonix? The beat-boxing guy is a mature Christian. Very cool.
You can use anything for ungodly purposes. PEople use the bible all the time to promote ungodly agendas. Like radical religious hate groups.
I love pentatonix. First song of theirs i heard was the little drummer boy. It was amazing.