OSAS origins and comparison
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Laugh all you want @rogerg .
Salvation is offered to all, and all can CHOOSE the Lord Jesus Christ.
John 3:16, Acts 16:31.
Your calvie/reformed theory is crap and an insult to the Master.
Yes , LOSER believers.
Calvies~~Not really saved.
Armies~~Lose salvation.
John 3:16, Acts 16:31......................................................................Eternal Life. PERIOD.
Never perish.
Have eternal life.
Nothing can separate.
sealed.
Imperishable seed.
A forever advocate.
Calvies and Armins are saved........But they will have a front row seat for 1000 years in Bible doctrine 101.
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." - 1 John 5:13
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." - 1 John 5:13
That's the one I meant to post. It says we can know.
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." - John 10:27-28
You have ears but do not hear.
David was not born again. He had the Holy Spirit upon Him, but not in Him. This was true of all prophets, some kings and judges in the OT when a specific task needed to be accomplished. Even the Apostles were not born again until after the cross. The Spirit of God could leave them in the OT. The permanent "in Him" presence which makes a person born again (regenerate) awaited the new Covenant that began to be realized at Pentecost (John 7:38-39). None of the regular believers had the Spirit upon them in the OT, let alone in them. They had the presence of God in the Temple. The Holy Spirit could not enter a believer unless there was blood to cleanse that Temple. No blood was available to cleanse the Temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:19) until after the cross. The Holy Spirit indwelling is what places us into Christ, called the placing into with/by the Holy Spirit, otherwise known as the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
This was all a future promise realized at Pentecost, when a person could be placed into Christ, and thus, placed into His death and raised up with Him, born again. (Romans 6:3-11).
Ezekiel 36:26-27 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
So, in the OT, nobody was indwelt with the Holy Spirit, thus we can rightly say that "there are none righteous, no not one, there are none who do good, no not one" (Romans 3), because that good, and true righteousness, is the fruit of the Spirit, not the flesh. They were owed that promise (Romans 8:28-30), a promise, a life, that begins with the Holy Spirit indwelling (Galatians 3:2-3), but they died having not received it (Hebrews 11:39-40, John 3:13-14).
We agree, that a person is saved by what Jesus did, but there needs to be clarity with the rest. Jesus said He will tell them who practice lawlessness, "I never knew you". interesting that the Bible says that those who love God are known by Him (1 Corinthians 8:3). Even OT believers (Romans 8:28-30). But He never knew them, meaning, they never loved Him.
Matthew 7: "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
David may have been a screw up at times, and failed at points in his life, much like we do, but make no mistake about it, he had a heart for God like no other. That's why God said that he does not want sacrifice, but He does except a broken and contrite heart (Psalm 51:16-17). That's what we call call 'poor in spirit' , the opposite of self righteousness (Matthew 5:3). Who was justified, but the broken and contrite heart of the tax collector, not the Pharisee who sacrificed by obeying the Law perfectly, albeit only perfect in his own mind (Luke 18:9-14).
Macarthur once put it so eloquently when he said that sin for a believer is a burden which afflicts him, rather than a pleasure which delights him." A true believer would have a strong desire to break away from all sin. He may struggle with it, as we all have the flesh that wars against the Spirit in us. But he would not say, "I'm justified, it doesn't matter." The latter would be an "evidence" that He was never saved.
If justification meant live any way that we want afterwards, then Paul is simply mistaken when He said.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Bypassing the delving into James 2 is like bypassing Jesus to uncomplicate the Gospel. We cannot separate them because each defines the other. And not understanding works as "evidences" conveniently removes the true definition of our works, as an evidence, and leaves only the two extremes, a works based salvation, or antinomianism. You can remove James, but there is still Paul, and you could remove Paul, but there is still Jesus, and you can remove the Bible, but there is still our conscience.
A broken and contrite heart that struggles, but desires and strives to get rid of sin is saved, just like the tax collector in the parable. To just say the heart doesn't matter, that all sin is forgiven is missing the importance of the part that our heart and motives play in that determining if our faith is genuine and we're justified by what Jesus did. Our works validate the genuineness of our hearts, our faith to us. God already knows.
You give one of the clearest and sensible explanations of the forgiveness of future sins that I have seen. However, it is just that: a good explanation but without any verse that says our future sins are forgiven.
However, future sins do not condemn anyone. Only sins that we have committed would condemn us. When we are walking in the light and believing in Jesus any sin we might commit is forgiven through the blood of Jesus - PTL! God never writes any sin onto the record of one who is a believer in Jesus Christ (Romans 8:1 - there is no condemnation to the one who is in Christ Jesus).
But it is a different picture for the unbeliever: even one sin brings damnation for the wages of sin is death.
Thanks for the compliment. Did you read these verses below which I included in my prior post to you? As I understand them, that is precisely what they mean. Please reread, especially Heb 10:12, where it says, "one sacrifice for sins for ever". By "for ever", it means past, present, and future.
[Heb 1:3 KJV] 3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[Heb 10:12 KJV] 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
King David was Saved.
In the Old Testament people were Saved by grace through Faith.
"In Romans 4, Paul also uses the example of David as being justified by faith and NOT of works, when he quotes Psalms 32:1-2:
“But to him who does NOT work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.””
Romans 4:5-8"
"The Bible’s clear message is that the way of salvation has always been by grace through faith. "
Were People In The Old Testament Born Again? | Kimberly Faith
A common misconception is that the Old Testament way of salvation was by keeping the Law. But we know from the Bible that that is not true.
gofaithstrong.com
To address your first point, saying that King David was not born again is a severe theological error. Jesus explicitly stated that no one can see or enter the kingdom of God unless they are born again ([John 3:3-5 KJV]). Furthermore, God explicitly called David 'a man after mine own heart' ([Acts 13:22 KJV]). Scripture tells us the unregenerate mind is hostile to God and cannot please Him ([Rom 8:7 KJV]). It is a logical impossibility for an unborn-again man to have a heart after God's own heart ([Acts 13:22]) . David loved God because his heart had already been supernaturally regenerated.
My point with David is simply that a true believer can fall horribly into carnal sin for a season and still be a child of God under active chastisement ([Heb 12:6 KJV]).
Okay then, regarding James 2, I am not trying to avoid the text. However, I believe that God, through James, is not speaking about a person's independent attributes, faith, or works, but about Jesus Christ's faith and works.
Neither a person's own faith nor their own moral works can bring them salvation; only Jesus Christ's perfect righteousness can. He is the Savior, man is not. Any true faith or good work we see in Scripture is entirely Christ living and working through a person, not a human achievement.
This is why [Rom 4:2 KJV] explicitly states: '"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God."
If James 2 were talking about human achievements, it would directly contradict Paul. True spiritual life—and the only work that matters and that work of God—is a total reliance on the finished work of Jesus Christ alone. Therefore, our assurance comes completely from looking towards the perfect work of Christ, rather than looking at a person's works and faith.
Hey bKing David was Saved.
In the Old Testament people were Saved by grace through Faith.
"In Romans 4, Paul also uses the example of David as being justified by faith and NOT of works, when he quotes Psalms 32:1-2:
“But to him who does NOT work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.””
Romans 4:5-8"
"The Bible’s clear message is that the way of salvation has always been by grace through faith. "
Were People In The Old Testament Born Again? | Kimberly Faith
A common misconception is that the Old Testament way of salvation was by keeping the Law. But we know from the Bible that that is not true.
But you're not making the distinction that the Bible does. In the OT, it was justification by promise. That promise was realized when Jesus, the promised Seed (Galatians 3), came in His incarnation and lived a sinless, perfectly righteous life, and died, resurrected, and ascended. That D.R.A. was necessary for the imputed righteousness that we receive to be established. that's what justifies us, and David too, but it had to actually happen. And atonement had to actually be made. The Holy Spirit will not indwell on promises, blood must be shed, Jesus' blood, to cleanse us, the Temples of the Holy Spirit. God's program shifts away from the Temple made with hands, and the priesthood, to living Temples, us, believers. That's why nobody was placed into Christ until Pentecost. The spiritual union that results from the indwelling Holy Spirit joins us to make us one with Jesus, and one with all those saving ingredients. Everything up until the cross is still OT.
Romans 3:25-26 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Why did God pass over the sins previously committed if they were already atoned? Because is was a promise. (Ezekiel 36:26-27)
It's the blood that ushers in the New Testament/Covenant.
Hebrews 9:14-26 (read this, it's too long to post)
David died having not received that promise.
Hebrews 11:32-33, 39-40. And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
39-40 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
Not made perfect apart from us (writer of Hebrews and those who he is writing to, now NT Christians who were once true OT believers, who were predestined to be conformed to Christlikeness (Romans 8:28-30). (Also see OT-John 3:13-14)
It's by grace through faith, but the distinction between the OT, OC and the NT, NC is that the OT was by promise. The NT is the realization of that promise. One pointed in type (because they wouldn't have seen it, not being born again), the latter in reality. (See Galatians 3).
Jesus said this...OT- John 16:12-16 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. "A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father."
John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Hebrews 10:12 says Jesus' sacrifice was one sacrifice (instead of the many of the OT) and it stands for all time. The sacrifice is available forever to believers. I surely don't see a doctrine of forgiveness of future sins here.
If Jesus offered one sacrifice for all time, then all of the sins for all time had to be covered by it. No distinction is made within Heb 10:12 for past, present or future sins- the "all time" (your phrase) is for "all sins".
Chester, you say the sacrifice stands for all time and is available forever, but you deny it covers future sins. You are separating the sacrifice from its results. When Jesus died 2,000 years ago, all of your sins were future sins. He didn’t leave a 'reservoir' of blood waiting for you to apply it step-by-step every time you sin. He paid the legal debt in full, once for all.
If the sacrifice does not actively cover our future sins ahead of time, then the moment a Christian commits a new sin, they are legally condemned, cast out of grace, and made spiritually dead, until they can re-apply it (which would make it not grace but by works). But Hebrews 10 says the exact opposite just two verses down. It states that by that one sacrifice, Christ 'hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified' ([Heb 10:14 KJV]) - please notice the "perfected once for ever". We - those saved - are already perfected forever in God's eyes because the payment for all our sins—past, present, and future— has already been made perfectly and completely through Jesus Christ, Savior, by the mercy and grace of God the Father, and not by man's attempted reapplication of His grace.
Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. True believers persevere because God preserves them. False believers fall away because they were never born again. Sanctification is the fruit, not the cause, of salvation.
Scripture does not teach that sanctification is salvation.
Scripture does not teach that regeneration can be lost.
Scripture does not teach fatalistic predestination.
Scripture does not authenticate conversion by experiences.
Scripture does not support “OSAS” as popularly stated.
Scripture does support perseverance of the regenerate.
Scripture does support warnings as real means of perseverance.
I agree Predestination is ancient and biblical.
Arminianism arose later and was once viewed suspiciously.
OSAS is a modern simplification of Reformed perseverance.
Methodism emphasizes prevenient grace and conditional security.
Pentecostalism emphasizes post‑conversion experiences.
All traditions try to distinguish nominal vs. true believers.
Sanctification does not obtain salvation.
Can you show me where in the Bible it says that any man in the OT was born again?
Exactly! And what must happen first?
John 3:13-14 No one has ascended to heaven (including David) but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up (ascend, glorified),
He was.
It is, they cannot please Him.
Nope! One must be 'in Christ' to be born again. And only after His death resurrection and ascension (the ingredients that save, both positionally and practically). OT prophets and kings had the Spirit upon them, but not in them. All other believers only had the presence of God, through the Holy Spirit being upon upon the prophets in their presence, God in the Temple, and Jesus Himself in His incarnation. With the Spirit indwelling, life, without the spirit indwelling, no life (Romans 8:9-11). The Holy Spirit being upon David, yes, that gave him some ability, but still clearly lacking, as it was for the Apostles up until they were indwelt. The Bible very Cleary shows that a person is born again when they are placed into Christ, and at that moment they are also placed into His death Galatians 2:20), and raised up with Him (Ephesians 2:6), born again (Romans 6:3-11). The life is the Spirit indwelling.
I'm afraid that your framework, or system that you define the Bible by is hostel to Scripture. Your system pushes you into a framework that only allows two options, Born again, or the flesh. That simply will not do according to the Bible, clearly, as OT believers could not be born again, and were not, yet they believed (John 7:38-39). How did they do this? Isn't belief pleasing to God?
And, as Romans 3 states, there were none righteous, no not one (including David), there were none who did good, no not one (including David). Still stands. Apart from the Spirit of God being in someone, they are incapable of doing anything good by righteous standards according to the Law, and cannot even begin to justify themselves.
As I have said, David did not have the advantages that we have today.
Right, that's why God gets the Glory.
Exactly! That's why Paul was speaking within the context of what merit justifies us before God (Jesus), and James was stating what justifies our claim of being a true believer before men (evidence, still Jesus).
Yes, but these were not available to David accept in promise. He had a limited access to the Holy Spirit and His benefits. We see that in Scripture from the OT to the NT for all believers, even the Apostles, who had the same presence of God with them, but not yet in them, and struggled to understand (John 14:12). This is what David had.
Where was David up until that point when Jesus ascended leading captivity captive and giving gifts to men? Hades, where Paradise was kept until Jesus ascends.
Due to size limitations, my reply will have to be made through multiple posts. I really Hope I did this correctly but f I've missed or mixed up something, please let me know
Post number 1
The Bible teaches the reality of regeneration in the Old Testament by showing that God had to change a person's heart before they could love Him. In [Deu 30:6 KJV], God promises: 'And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart... to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart.' Heart circumcision is the exact Old Testament term for being born again—it is His changing of a dead stoney heart to one of flesh. Further, Jesus explicitly stated in [John 3:10 KJV] that Nicodemus should have already understood the new birth from the Old Testament scriptures. If it wasn't a reality back then, Jesus's rebuke of Nicodemus makes no sense
You are confusing the historical timeline with God's eternal decree.
In the mind of God, Christ is 'the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world' ([Rev 13:8 KJV]). The cross worked retroactively for Old Testament saints looking forward in faith, just as it works for us looking back.
If the cross had to physically happen before anyone could be regenerated or saved, then Abraham, Moses, and David died completely unsaved and condemned. But Jesus explicitly stated that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive and well in the kingdom of heaven ([Matt 8:11 KJV], [Luke 13:28 KJV]). Since Jesus also said no one can enter the kingdom unless they are born again, those Old Testament saints had to be born again by the (retroactive) power of Christ's sacrifice
Since you agree he was, you must face the logical conclusion. Romans 8:7 states that the natural, unregenerate mind is 'enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.'
If David was not born again, his heart would have been completely hostile to God as a heart of stone. It is a theological impossibility for a spiritually dead, fleshly, heart of stone to be 'after God's own heart. The fact that he loved God proves his heart had already been supernaturally changed by the Holy Spirit.
As David himself explicitly stated in [Ps 51:11 KJV]: 'Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.' David could not plead for God to keep from removing the Holy Spirit if the Spirit wasn't already actively within him, having shaped his heart.
If you agree that the unregenerate cannot please God, then you have a major theological contradiction.
King David repeatedly pleased God through his faith, and his repentance. If David was unregenerate and spiritually dead in the flesh, then as [Rom 8:8 KJV] explicitly states he 'cannot please God.'
The only way David could have a heart that pleased God is if he was already a regenerated, born-again child of God. You cannot have it both ways
You claim James is about justifying a claim before men, but [James 2:14 KJV] explicitly asks a question about salvation: 'Can faith save him?' Man does not save himself; God does it all.
Further, you admitted that this evidence is 'still Jesus.' If the evidence is Jesus Christ living and working through a person, then it is by His work, not human achievement. You have just conceded my entire point: we cannot look at our independent human works to validate our salvation, because all true spiritual fruit is entirely the work of Jesus Christ alone moving in us. Man, of himself, provide cannot do so.
Part 2
Dave, you are inventing a third spiritual category that the Bible never defines. Scripture only ever gives two options: a person is either dead in Adam, or alive in Christ ([1Co 15:22 KJV]).
You ask how Old Testament saints could believe if they weren't born again, and you note that belief pleases God. But you already agreed in your previous reply that the unregenerate 'cannot please God' ([Rom 8:8 KJV]). If David and Abraham were unregenerate, their dead hearts would have been completely hostile to God and incapable of true belief. Faith is a spiritual fruit, not a work of a spiritually dead person. Further, your claim that the Spirit didn't indwell Old Testament saints directly contradicts [1 Pet 1:11 KJV], which explicitly states the prophets had 'the Spirit of Christ which was in them.'
Finally, when you use Romans 3 to claim David was never righteous and did no good, you contradict God Himself. In [1Ki 14:8 KJV], God testifies that David 'followed me with all his heart, to do that only which was right in mine eyes.' David wasn't sinlessly perfect, but his heart was regenerated to love and obey the Lord.
Further, the 'none righteous' passage describes the natural, unsaved state of man apart from grace. That category is comprised of people who are either unsaved, or those who will be saved. Once a person is saved through Christ, they are legally made righteous in God's eyes. To say a true believer remains in the 'none righteous' category after salvation completely denies the reality of justification.
Exactly. Since God gets 100% of the glory, human performance is completely eliminated as a tool to earn or maintain our legal standing before Him. The faith and works that satisfied God belong entirely to Jesus Christ alone. He alone is the Savior from start to finish.
You claim James is about justifying a claim before men, but [James 2:14 KJV] explicitly asks a question about salvation: 'Can faith save him?' Man does not save himself; God does it all.
Further, you admitted that this evidence is 'still Jesus.' If the evidence is Jesus Christ living and working through a person, then it is a divine work, not a human achievement. You have just conceded my entire point: our works are not a human tool to earn or maintain our salvation, but they are simply the secondary fruit of Jesus Christ's grace already alive inside us. Man has nothing to boast in
Dave, diving into the geography of Hades completely dodges the text.
You claim salvation and the Spirit's benefits were only a future promise for David. If that is true, [Ps 51:11-12 KJV] makes absolutely no sense. In those verses, David explicitly prays: 11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me [with thy] free spirit. David was saved and being upheld by the Holy Spirit. When you point to John 14, you miss what Jesus actually said. In [John 14:16-17 KJV], Jesus promises 'another Comforter'—meaning a distinct Person of the exact same divine nature as Himself. He explicitly tells the disciples, 'ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.' They already knew the Holy Spirit because He had already regenerated them. Further, Pentecost was not the introduction of the Holy Spirit's regenerating power into the world, but instead, His introduction to a new audience—the true Church. It expanded the Spirit’s presence into a permanent indwelling of those of the true Church. If David was waiting, his soul was already legally justified, regenerated, and saved by the retroactive power of Jesus Christ alone as Savior.
Hey Rog
The Bible defines it as a prevenient grace, or common grace, albeit limited to the presence of God in the OT. That presence is taken everywhere in the NT/NC because indwelt believers take it with them when they evangelize. (John 12:32, John 16:7-11). That presence, the Light, is enough to draw someone and allow them to believe (John 12:36), even when they were not yet indwelt with the Holy Spirit, the life. We receive that life, that regeneration, as a result of faith (Ephesians 1:13-14), but only after the DRA was that life available to us. Because it was the DRA that provided the saving ingredients, and the blood that allowed the Holy spirit to indell believers. Blood cleanses Temples, promises don't.
Were these who believed dead in Adam, or alive in Christ? John 7:38-39.
Remember, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit we have the life, without the indwelling Holy Spirit we're dead (Romans 8:9-11). It's the indwelling that places us in Christ, the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
------------------
Alright Roger, this is how I see this whole covenant theology vs. dispensationalism debate these days. I'll admit up from, I'm not as well understood in the covenant details as some, but we really don't need to be to see these simple truths.
Calvinism, and their TULIP, must defend at all costs the idea that God deals with people the same in the OT and He does in the NT, other wise they have to face all the scripture that clearly discredits that idea. So what they have done is highjacked covenant theology, and presented it as a half truth, pitting it again dispensationalism (the other half), and always added to that dispensationalism is the greatest possible context so they can attack the fringes.
You see, the Old and New Testaments are dispensations by definition, and when understood correctly, the Covenants and dispensations are not hostile to each other, but work in harmony. God does deal with people differently from the OT to the NT, and those two dispensations are qualified by the covenant promises made and covenant promises received.
The Lamb slain from the foundations of the world argument is so misused that it baffles my mind. It's just speaking of an eternal decree.
1 Peter 1:19-20 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;
By claiming it's a reality from the foundations of the world, your basically using it to administer theological relativism. It makes every time sensitive passage mean nothing. Yet another slight of hand to protect TULIP, as as a result, protect the false idea that God always dealt with people the same way in the OT and NT.
I can destroy that idea that God deals with people the same in both the OT and the NT with one verse.
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Hebrews 8:13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
What you're doing is called reverse engineering. Your foundation is that you believe the TULIP system is right and then you try to define Scripture with that. Your arguing from a Catholic theology and not even realizing it.
Nobody was placed into Christ until Pentecost. Nobody is born again until they are placed into Christ. Only after the death resurrection and ascension.
I'm not trying to insult anyone. I still believe that most Arminians are driven by humanism when interpreting Scripture. But I never imagined that trying to reason with Calvinists is actually worse. Just replace the Arminian humanism with the Tulip system. It's like trying to tell the Manson family member that Charlie is lying to them. They just do not want to see it. They only see things through what Charlie tells them.
All I can tell you is that you have to be able to see Scripture away from the TULIP system to see the true Biblical context. TULIP is Catholicism/reformed arguing with Traditional Catholicism. Neither is Biblical.
Dave
God did not deal with mankind the same way in the OT as He does in the NT. The covenants changed. The blood changed. The Spirit changed. The relationship changed. The access changed. The regeneration changed. The indwelling changed. The placement into Christ changed.
And any system — Calvinist, Arminian, Catholic, Reformed — that tries to flatten those distinctions is not defending Scripture.
It’s defending itself.
Dave, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Since this conversation has shifted away from the text of Scripture and into personal insults about 'cults' and 'the Manson family,' it is clear that continuing a line-by-line debate will no longer be profitable for either of us.
Rather than dragging this thread into an endless argument over systematic labels, I want to leave my final thoughts focused exactly where we started: on the absolute sufficiency of Jesus Christ, Savior.
My position remains anchored in the unchanging truth that God has provided only one plan of salvation throughout all of human history, and that is entirely through Jesus Christ as Savior. Salvation is a sovereign work of God from beginning to end. Whether looking forward like King David—whom God changed to be a man after His own heart—or looking backward at the cross today, true faith- the fruit of the Holy Spirit- is entirely manifested by Christ living and working through His people. The fundamental error of any system that demands we look inward to our own works or independent human willpower for validation is that it shifts our eternal security away from the Savior and onto the flawed performance of man which can never satisfy God's requirements for salvation.
Because Christ's single sacrifice perfectly cleared our debt for all time, our assurance cannot come from staring inward with our own sinful hearts, fluid motives, or insufficient and sinful works. It comes completely from looking outward and trusting in the finished work of our Savior, Jesus Christ, which trust is given by God as a free gift to those whom He saves. Since He gets 100% of the glory, I am content to leave the argument there and let the scriptures we've shared stand on their own. I wish you the best.
Rog