OSAS, When does salvation take place?
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Well, you have to wonder if this qualifies for 2 Timothy 2:23: "Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.This connects to my post how.
I have not avoided anything. I am pointing out that Jesus in the warning found in mat 7 never says these miracles where false. I warned you that the only other time in the bible where someone claims a work of the Holy Spirit performed through someone was 'false.' That act was identified as blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. Which is the unforgivable sin. Meaning do not be so flippant with what Jesus identifies as miracles Primarily "casting out demons" or the like, and call if the work of __________. (Fill in the blank)
Remember in mat 12 what Jesus says about demons casting out demons... (It was not possible.) which means casting out demons by these men where legit.
No, I did not. I am pointing out that none of us are saved here now in this life.. That salvation does not happen till judgement. Meaning ALL Miracles the Holy Spirit does through people (In good standing with Jesus at the time of their judgement or otherwise) are legitimate miracles when they are performed.. Example are the miracles Judas performed when Jesus commissioned the disciples and sent them off in pairs in mark 6 and luke 10.
The miracles Judas perform where no less legit than the miracles that any of the other disciples performed, even though he did not 'finish the race' was in good standing with Jesus at his judgement.
Except the bible does not identify The "signs and wonders" they performed as miracles.. The passage describes what they did as having come from their 'secrete arts.' Which points to slight of hand/illusion (trickery)
Exo 7: 11. Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts:
Jesus identified what these men did as "prophesying in His name, casting out demons and 'performed many miracles." Never once did Jesus say their efforts where illegitimate. This means their works where powered by the Holy Spirit.
So no, I did not ask if miracles could be done apart from God. Nor is your example legit as the bible explicitly identifies the 'signs and wonders" performed by by the court magicians as originating from the 'secrete arts.' These are not legit miracles unless you think Penn and Teller are also prophets.
Is that not what you did when you cast aside the examples Jesus gave of people prophesying in his name, casting out demons and performing 'many miracles?'
By the example found in exo 7: 8-12 you are saying these legit works Jesus identifies in mat 7 (prophesying in his name, casting out demons and performing 'many' miracles) are the works of someone other than the Holy Spirit. Which is what the pharisees did in mat 12 so they could win an argument...
Here's the thing. Jesus in this passage never delegitimizes the works of these men. Meaning these works where done by the Holy Spirit. How do we know for 100% sure?
Again, Remember what Jesus says about demons casting out other demons in mat 12.. So we know when Jesus says these men cast out demons, we know it was done by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is why I warned you to be careful. I do not think you committed the unforgivable sin yet.. I think you said what you said out of ignorance/not understanding the ramifications of everything you're argument implies. But again, be careful because you are on the same slippery slop the Pharisees where on when they too where defending their argument.
Mat 12:
24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”
25 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.