Ive noticed this sems to be a big debate amoung christians.. i personally belive once one is truly saved an has recived the holy spirit that they will still sin an need to ask for frogivnce but i dont think they would backslide to the point of loosing salvation.. i also belive that alot of people who considerd themselvs christians arent nececarly truly saved an therefore can backslide out of christianity.... an that statment wasnt to judge anyone its just something ive seen alot..
OSAS
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Well the Doctrine of Eternal Security is a Bible Doctrine. The true Born again believers in the church age are selaed with the Holy Spirit at the point of their conversion (See Eph. 1:13 & Eph. 4:30).
No true Christian can lose their salvation in the church age.
And for those that teach that a Christian can lose salvation, well they are wrong. They are teaching that salvation is by works, because if you have to keep your salvation by the good works you do, then there is really no assurance of salvation. Because you have to constantly worry whether or not you lost it this time or whether you still have it.
So if a Christian sins, they still have to pay the consequences of their sin while on earth, but they will not lose their salvation. They cannot lose it because it is not theirs to lose. Salvation after all is of God.
And It is not of us.
It raises a difficult question. How can one receive eternal life if that life can be lost? Eternal life must by it's nature and definition be eternal. If the blood of Christ was necessary to save us from our sins how can it not be wholly sufficient to do the job? If God is satisfied with the atonement Christ made why are we arguing against it?
Salvation is a one time event. Salvation initiates the process of sanctification which takes a life time. Glorification with Christ culminates the sanctification process that Christ predestined when He saved us. This is not an insignificant doctrine because it reveals the quality of the salvation experience.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Salvation is a one time event. Salvation initiates the process of sanctification which takes a life time. Glorification with Christ culminates the sanctification process that Christ predestined when He saved us. This is not an insignificant doctrine because it reveals the quality of the salvation experience.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Think about what you have written.
You have basically stated that "salvation is a position one holds" where one "can sin" but "not to the point of losing salvation."
So how much sin can one get away with?
In my estimation it takes ONE ACT of REBELLION (willfully/knowingly sinning) to cut one off from God. Salvation is a state whereby one has submitted themselves to God whereby one is thus abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (as opposed to being in rebellion/not abiding).
Thus one who is truly IN Christ is walking in the light as He is in the light and the blood thus cleanses them from ALL sin. Not an ongoing cleansing for a life of continued rebellion.
So in other words YOU CAN SIN AND NOT SURELY DIE.
Correct? You would have to agree otherwise deny everything you just wrote.
So salvation to you is a PACKAGE you have received which has absolutely NOTHING to do with actually being set free from the bondage of sin and having your heart made pure.
Sanctification to you is sinning less right? Rebelling less and obey more correct?
Thus Christian's must be double-minded hypocrites serving two masters yet so long as they "trust in the package" and that it is a "done deal" then their future is secure.
Imagine salvation was actually being set free from the bondage of sin (that which compels people to keep on sinning) as well as from the condemnation wrought by sinning.
Was Israel free whilst in the service of the Egyptians? Or did Israel forsake their old master, pass through the Red Sea where their faith was subsequently TESTED in the wilderness.
Was Israel free whilst in the service of the Egyptians? Or did Israel forsake their old master, pass through the Red Sea where their faith was subsequently TESTED in the wilderness.
J
jerusalem
Guest
this is the part where the unforgivable sin comes in. only a spirit filled born again believer is capable of this sin.
Well im sorry skin according to your logic no one is saved because besides christ there never was an never will be a man who dosent sin because saved or not as long as we are we we still have inperfect flesh.....
[h=3]1 Corinthians 15:12-19[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
[h=3]The Risen Christ, Our Hope[/h][SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? [SUP]13 [/SUP]But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! [SUP]18 [/SUP]Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. [SUP]19 [/SUP]If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable
Who is accountable for their salvation? Is it you, me, anyone else? Or is it God?
So think please whay did God go to the cross, when God who is perfect never had to? There had to be a reason you think, being perfect surely it was not for himself was it? So how deep is God's Mercy over sacrifice? Now this reconciliation preached by the apostles of God being satisfied in and of his Son has to have an effect yes? So where is the proof if he just only died, becasue there is no life in death right?
Proof!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Corinthians 15:20-28
New King James Version (NKJV)
[h=3]The Last Enemy Destroyed[/h][SUP]20 [/SUP]But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. [SUP]25 [/SUP]For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Whenever one does walk in the Spirit of God is when one does not sin, so let us each learn from God to do this more and more, and thank God taht as we are learning this truth that we are forgiven never wanting to take God for granted for forgiving us past tense back at the cross where we are made alive by the resurrected Christ seeing how to walk by God's Spirit, from God that born us again by the resurrected Christ
Romans 8:1[ Free from Indwelling Sin ] There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:4that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Galatians 5:16[ Walking in the Spirit ] I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Ephesians 2:2in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
So now let us each ask of God to show us how to each trust God, and thus in response walk in God's Spirit forsakiing the flesh that is sin and death
The flesh is corruptible yes in that it is decaying. Yet the flesh does not FORCE you to sin.
Are you saying that you believe that the flesh FORCES you to sin?
My Bible teaches that the lusts of the flesh TEMPT people to sin...
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
But those who are Christ's have crucified these lusts...
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Thus the walk of a Christian must MATCH the profession of the Christian.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
We who have died with Christ have died to sin that we no longer serve sin.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
For it is those who serve sin who remain its slaves.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Thus we belong to whom we YIELD ourselves.
Does a Christian yield to sin allaboutlove?
Skinski, do you understand this God is not a tyrant, and you might not be saying this yet you are, There is a diffearance between Flesh and Spirit and I have seen you post as seeing, yet you are not giving Mercy. You are assuming we are takiing advantage of the grace of God, and waht you say is good for those that do take it forgranted and use it for an occasion an excuse for the flesh.
Yet to those that beleive God has by Christ granted them salvation. Have you 100% quit sin for all time hear and now ? Is yuor flesh redeemed? Are you not in a sinful body?
Matthew 12:7But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless.
Romans 7:17But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
So as I grow I learn to not walk by the flesh right? And God by Christ stays the propitiation for all sins correct? This is what is so amazing about God and is what taught me to say no to unrighteousness and turn to God for God himself through the Holy Ghost to teach me by God how to say no to unrighteousness by God's Spirit, and thus be free, knowing that I could get decieved and walk by the flesh again, yet now count it all glory if I do, not on purpose to take it for granted but to learn from and grow in God's grace supplied to all the world, in order to save it
I just love God because God first loved me,m do you agree with this?
Are you trying to be funny, waht you wrote can't be, if one is born again God I am sure won't take it back and God is not a liar man is. Hmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not possible once one is Spirit filled by God from Christ by the resurrection
A free gift
Romans 5:18Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life
Romans 5:15But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
So the proof of this free gift is the response to this free gift. A man is identified by the fruit that comes through him, which is the Love and Mercy from God by Christ at the cross, proof of this by the resurrection
1 Corinthians 15:13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
[h=3]1 Corinthians 15:14-20[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! [SUP]18 [/SUP]Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. [SUP]19 [/SUP]If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
[h=3]The Last Enemy Destroyed[/h][SUP]20 [/SUP]But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Skin no im not saying it forces me to sin i am saying we are imperfact being an in are current state are not capble of never sinning.. we may do it less after coming to christ but i still sin you still sin everyone on this site still sins ect.. therefore if being sved means you never sin than none of us are saved.
Well Hebrews does say that Christ perfected forever them that are sanctified. Heb 10:9-14. Heb 9:11-12 Christ by His own blood entered in once into the holy place having obtained eternal redemption for us. So back to Hebrews 10:28-29
I suggest that you consider the double-mindedness of serving the law and invalidating grace. Christ is able to save to the uttermost, all the way out to the end, they that come to God through Him. Hebrews 7:25
Just what are you depending on to get you to heaven? What will you say to the Lord on that day?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The flesh is weak. If we say we have no sin we lie...another sin. Salvation does not make us sinless only forgiven. We will be made sinless when we are glorified together with Christ for eternity.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Well, when does one receive eternal life?
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
When?
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
We become immortal at the resurrection, not now. For now we are mortal, Pauls says here that the mortal must put on immortality at the resurrection.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
And what does it mean to be mortal?
mortal:
G2349
θνητός
thnētos
thnay-tos'
From G2348; liable to die: - mortal (-ity).
Thayers...
G2349
θνητός
thnētos
Thayer Definition:
1) liable to death, mortal
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2348
Citing in TDNT: 3:21, 312
We are unable to die when we put on immortality. Paul says that is at the resurrection. When is the resurrection?
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Come on...you're not serious. Do you not know that salvation is about new life not physical life but spiritual life? Are you really claiming that you cannot see that Jesus takes the part of man that is dead in sin and makes it alive unto God? Eph 2:1 And you hath He quickened who were dead in trespass and sins. Who walked in times past...you are not walking if you are dead physically. You is walking dead if you are dead spiritually.
You cite scriptures about the redemption of mans body when the subject here is redemption of the soul.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
According to what you have written one who is saved can still be in rebellion. Thus a Christian remains a double-minded hypocrite in the service of two masters over which the blood serves as a cloak.
Isn't that correct?
Your doctrine is clearly making an allowance for ongoing rebellion to God.
Are you not taking Romans 7:17 where Paul personifies sin and then you are using that as a basis that one sins not of their own free will but by necessity of "indwelling sin"? Thus man is not really responsible for his rebellion to God, the fault lies with "indwelling sin."
When Paul writes he is trying to portray an image of truth from his mind to the reader. Due to this we have to compare scripture to scripture and not isolate select verses apart from their context. Paul is often explaining difficult to grasp concepts and due to this it is quite easy to twist his writings by focusing on select verses apart from their context in order to support a deception. Thus we need to be very careful.
Look at what Paul writes...
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
In the above verse he personifies sin to illustrate a point, he is not literally teaching that sin is a substance (ie. it literally indwells). No because sin is a choice, sin is a moral issue not a physical issue. Jesus overcame sin in the flesh by the Spirit which is exactly what Paul is teaching here. Look at the next verse...
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
The wretched man of Romans 7 is trying to overcome sin in the flesh apart from the Spirit of God. he wants to overcome sin but he is yet to understand the MEANS by which sin is actually overcome.
Paul wrote thus a few verses later...
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
It is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which sets one free from being the Romans wretch. Notice the wretch cries out for deliverance...
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
There are two laws.
1. Sin unto death to which those who serve sin are enslaved unto.
2. Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (entered into via obedience to the truth).
It is law number 2 which sets one free from law number one. Hence...
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
There are two ways...
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
1. Walking according to the flesh.
2. Walking according to the Spirit.
They are opposites. If one is in the flesh they cannot please God.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
It is very important to grasp this otherwise one can be very easily deceived into believing that the life of the redeemed Christian is the wretched life of Romans 7:14-25. The wretched man only has HEAD KNOWLEDGE of righteousness and USES LAW to try and force compliance with righteousness. It does not work because righteousness is found by abiding in the Spirit as opposed to following rules.
Note that Romans 7 is written to those who know the law (Rom 7:1). Paul teaches that we become dead to the law by the body of Christ (Rom 7:4). Not that the law has been thrown out the window, no, the righteousness of the law is upheld by us who abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2-4) whereby we bring forth fruit unto God (Rom 7:4) the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23).
Romans 7 is where Paul is illustrating the REASON WHY we need to abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. The law cannot save, only Jesus Christ can save, and He saves those who abide in Him.
We don't LEARN to not walk by the flesh because when we come to Christ we put off the flesh. It's a done deal. What we do learn is more and more about the mind of Christ, thus we grow in His grace and knowledge. It is not about walking in the flesh less and the Spirit more, no, it is about walking in the Spirit with more understanding and thus being able to make better decisions for our discernment is increased.
If one holds the view that a Christian is only "partially crucified" then one has opened the door to any doctrine which teaches "ye can sin and not surely die" for the blood of Christ, by necessity, must be treated as a cloak for ongoing iniquity resultant of only being "partially crucified."
Think about it.
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