Yes thats the only story I know of where even Jesus lost his temper. But for a good reason. No one can expect me to stay silent when people would do drugs in church or something like that. But to raise hell over a pulpit.. naw though I like telling people that it aint okay its on them on how important they find that. We surely need our good helper the holy spirit. Believe me if he wouldnt sometimes seal my lips or fingers I would be in quite a big trouble around multiple church communities haha
Pagan pulpit and sermon placing believers in the back of the bus. Not so good.
- Thread starter Yet
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
YET said
The pagan origins of the Pulpit
This guy is wrong in only one place i see. He believes the functions of the Holy Spirit ended in the first century. The rest of the study is pretty much right on.
I have to say I disagree with almost all of what the author had to say . I will start off with his statement that "Constantine established the first church buildings 313 AD" .
This is completely untrue. A quick look at early third century writing or archeological evidence will show this . Example the Philosopher Porphyry in his book Against Christians FR 76 written in the year 269 wrote
" Moreover, the Christians also, imitating the erection of the temples, build very large buildings , into which they go together and pray, although there is nothing to prevent them from doing this in their own houses, since the Lord certainly hears from every place." Just the context of the word buildings being plural tells us that this is not a isolated case and it's a ongoing happening ,or why complain?
That in it self tears down the writers statement about church buildings .
Now let's look at his statement about pulpits.
The author writes
"The pulpit
structure predates Christianity and is of heathen origin."
He continues on about the history and ends with
"The English pulpit and the Italian pulpito, are from the Latin pulpitum which referred to an elevated platform for performers. Hence establishing flesh kings, or as Gen. 6 says "mighty men of renown".
First off what is wrong if pagans used pulpits before Christians did ? Pagans wrote down their beliefs on papyrus and collected them together in books before Christians did so is writing stuff down wrong or pagan , Are books pagan? The answer is a resounding. No !
I will just use a quote from the King James Version of the Bible.
"Neh 8:4 And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam.
Is Ezra a pagan?
I left sermons for last sense that part or the writer's article makes the least sense. He starts off with this opening statement.
"The Sermon
The "sermon" cannot be found in the New Testament. Its beginnings are seen in Greek and Roman philosophy. Like most things in the western world its roots are of these two dominate cultures. The Renaissance. (the so-called age of enlightenment), was nothing more than the revival of Grecian philosophy. The State University was a concept not unknown to the Greco-Roman world. In reality, the so-called Renaissance beginning in the 14th century was in the
gathering on the plains of Shinar and the beginning of building the modern world's Tower of Babel based upon the enlightenment of man."
He makes accusations without leveling any specific charges . It's a straw man argument,where you can leave it up to the reader to imagine what evils lay wait in the modern day sermon. He then follows up with scripture verses to give legitimacy to empty arguments. Letting the reader fill in the gaps .
What is really sad or funny ( not sure ) at a mid point of his discourse on sermons he writes
" The common belief of those following theses cults is that they as followers don't know how to get up in front of a crowd, stand behind a pulpit and give an oration following the standard rules of sermon "ie" not learned in the psycho-babel of rhetoric. The biggest roadblock to a functioning priesthood of all believers is the "sermon;" a polished, "educated" .
Note the underlined portion of his comments. The word Rhetoric ?
Rhetoric (pronounced /ˈrɛtərɪk/) is the art of discourse, an art that aims to improve the capability of writers or speakers to inform, most likely to persuade, or motivate particular audiences in specific situations.
Well he is using it ( rhetoric) to push his point throughout his entire article . I am not sure if he is aware of it .
Another point the author of the article or study tells of the evils of a pagan pulpit and as just mentioned above in a quote he chides Christians for not knowing how to speak from one . ( make up your mind man )
This article in my opinion is way off the mark . The writer is a slave to the doctrine of works .
I could go on but I will leave it here .
Blessings
Bill
The pagan origins of the Pulpit
This guy is wrong in only one place i see. He believes the functions of the Holy Spirit ended in the first century. The rest of the study is pretty much right on.
I have to say I disagree with almost all of what the author had to say . I will start off with his statement that "Constantine established the first church buildings 313 AD" .
This is completely untrue. A quick look at early third century writing or archeological evidence will show this . Example the Philosopher Porphyry in his book Against Christians FR 76 written in the year 269 wrote
" Moreover, the Christians also, imitating the erection of the temples, build very large buildings , into which they go together and pray, although there is nothing to prevent them from doing this in their own houses, since the Lord certainly hears from every place." Just the context of the word buildings being plural tells us that this is not a isolated case and it's a ongoing happening ,or why complain?
That in it self tears down the writers statement about church buildings .
Now let's look at his statement about pulpits.
The author writes
"The pulpit
structure predates Christianity and is of heathen origin."
He continues on about the history and ends with
"The English pulpit and the Italian pulpito, are from the Latin pulpitum which referred to an elevated platform for performers. Hence establishing flesh kings, or as Gen. 6 says "mighty men of renown".
First off what is wrong if pagans used pulpits before Christians did ? Pagans wrote down their beliefs on papyrus and collected them together in books before Christians did so is writing stuff down wrong or pagan , Are books pagan? The answer is a resounding. No !
I will just use a quote from the King James Version of the Bible.
"Neh 8:4 And Ezra the scribe stood upon a pulpit of wood, which they had made for the purpose; and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Urijah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, Pedaiah, and Mishael, and Malchiah, and Hashum, and Hashbadana, Zechariah, and Meshullam.
Is Ezra a pagan?
I left sermons for last sense that part or the writer's article makes the least sense. He starts off with this opening statement.
"The Sermon
The "sermon" cannot be found in the New Testament. Its beginnings are seen in Greek and Roman philosophy. Like most things in the western world its roots are of these two dominate cultures. The Renaissance. (the so-called age of enlightenment), was nothing more than the revival of Grecian philosophy. The State University was a concept not unknown to the Greco-Roman world. In reality, the so-called Renaissance beginning in the 14th century was in the
gathering on the plains of Shinar and the beginning of building the modern world's Tower of Babel based upon the enlightenment of man."
He makes accusations without leveling any specific charges . It's a straw man argument,where you can leave it up to the reader to imagine what evils lay wait in the modern day sermon. He then follows up with scripture verses to give legitimacy to empty arguments. Letting the reader fill in the gaps .
What is really sad or funny ( not sure ) at a mid point of his discourse on sermons he writes
" The common belief of those following theses cults is that they as followers don't know how to get up in front of a crowd, stand behind a pulpit and give an oration following the standard rules of sermon "ie" not learned in the psycho-babel of rhetoric. The biggest roadblock to a functioning priesthood of all believers is the "sermon;" a polished, "educated" .
Note the underlined portion of his comments. The word Rhetoric ?
Rhetoric (pronounced /ˈrɛtərɪk/) is the art of discourse, an art that aims to improve the capability of writers or speakers to inform, most likely to persuade, or motivate particular audiences in specific situations.
Well he is using it ( rhetoric) to push his point throughout his entire article . I am not sure if he is aware of it .
Another point the author of the article or study tells of the evils of a pagan pulpit and as just mentioned above in a quote he chides Christians for not knowing how to speak from one . ( make up your mind man )
This article in my opinion is way off the mark . The writer is a slave to the doctrine of works .
I could go on but I will leave it here .
Blessings
Bill
In the church family where i attend, the reason we don't just let anyone stand up & 'preach' when we are all together on a sunday morning is because we are well aware that there are people who would stand up there and teach heresy. however if anyone desires to preach - or 'feels led to' or however you want to make that statement ((whether such descriptions are pagan or scriptural is another discussion)) - the elders, if they know they are sound in doctrine, would certainly not be opposed,and if they did not know the person well, they would vet them, asking about doctrine and to hear a 'preview' of the message they mean to give, and would decide.
We do have a man who *most often* preaches to the general congregation, but we have at least a dozen who preach from time to time - this in a congregation of maybe 150 people.
The situation in smaller groups is much different. There, everyone speaks, and if they are unsound, those who are sound rebuke them, and everyone is edified. In the general congregation, such a process is problematic, because of the number of people present.
Imagine 300 people ((or even 3,000)) freely *talking* and arguing over points as one speaks, and each standing up to address the whole assembly every time they feel at odds with what someone has said, or feel like they want to add to or elucidate something! It would be chaos.
Knowing that within the 'attendance' of most American churches there is no small proportion of heretics and larger numbers of people completely ignorant of scripture who would be easily carried away by them, what is being suggested is a recipe for turning the church into little more than a spiritually-themed internet chat room.
This is not a nefarious scheme to subjugate the masses. This is a pragmatic organizational thing. It is logistical.
The 1[SUP]st[/SUP] century churches were 'home churches' with smaller numbers than what many churches today have. They are much more similar in scale and operation to the 'small group' structure that exists within so many churches today. It is not as though Yet is the only person in the world to ever recognize the difference -- and this is why almost every sound church encourages people to become involved in smaller group study, where the body can truly exercise.
You made a lot of good, perceptive points but i don't know why you felt it necessary to include this accusation nor how it is justified.
What i perceive about the author is that he is at the least hypocritical, because he is in fact 'preaching' on his internet 'pulpit', and ignorant of that very fact -- just like, as you say, he is in fact making use of rhetoric to call using rhetoric 'wrong.' Which isn't "works" -- the author has a whole lot of errors, but i don't see whatever it is you are seeing with regard to this particular comment . . ?
The idea comes from a long look at the website from where the article comes from and a link to a few YouTube videos posted there and the YouTube channel that has over 12 hrs of video.
The sight has many subjects and articles related to those subjects is where I got the notion about works .
I aplogise for any confusion about where I got the opinion that he tends to be a works oriented.
His sight is standing the gap . Org ( all one word though) this YouTube channel is holding firmly ( also one word )
Blessings
Bill
The sight has many subjects and articles related to those subjects is where I got the notion about works .
I aplogise for any confusion about where I got the opinion that he tends to be a works oriented.
His sight is standing the gap . Org ( all one word though) this YouTube channel is holding firmly ( also one word )
Blessings
Bill
Nehemiah 8:1-18
All the people came together as one in the square before the Water Gate. They told Ezra the teacher of the Law to bring out the Book of the Law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded for Israel. So on the first day of the seventh month Ezra the priest brought the Law before the assembly, which was made up of men and women and all who were able to understand. He read it aloud from daybreak till noon as he faced the square before the Water Gate in the presence of the men, women and others who could understand. And all the people listened attentively to the Book of the Law. Ezra the teacher of the Law stood on a high wooden platform (also called a pulpit) built for the occasion. Beside him on his right stood Mattithiah, Shema, Anaiah, Uriah, Hilkiah and Maaseiah; and on his left were Pedaiah, Mishael, Malkijah, Hashum, Hashbaddanah, Zechariah and Meshullam. Ezra opened the book. All the people could see him because he was standing above them; and as he opened it, the people all stood up. Ezra praised the LORD, the great God; and all the people lifted their hands and responded, “Amen! Amen!” Then they bowed down and worshiped the LORD with their faces to the ground. The Levites—Jeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan and Pelaiah—instructed the people in the Law while the people were standing there. They read from the Book of the Law of God, making it clear and giving the meaning so that the people understood what was being read. Then Nehemiah the governor, Ezra the priest and teacher of the Law, and the Levites who were instructing the people said to them all, “This day is holy to the LORD your God. Do not mourn or weep.” For all the people had been weeping as they listened to the words of the Law. Nehemiah said, “Go and enjoy choice food and sweet drinks, and send some to those who have nothing prepared. This day is holy to our Lord. Do not grieve, for the joy of the LORD is your strength.” The Levites calmed all the people, saying, “Be still, for this is a holy day. Do not grieve.” Then all the people went away to eat and drink, to send portions of food and to celebrate with great joy, because they now understood the words that had been made known to them. On the second day of the month, the heads of all the families, along with the priests and the Levites, gathered around Ezra the teacher to give attention to the words of the Law. They found written in the Law, which the LORD had commanded through Moses, that the Israelites were to live in temporary shelters during the festival of the seventh month and that they should proclaim this word and spread it throughout their towns and in Jerusalem: “Go out into the hill country and bring back branches from olive and wild olive trees, and from myrtles, palms and shade trees, to make temporary shelters”—as it is written. So the people went out and brought back branches and built themselves temporary shelters on their own roofs, in their courtyards, in the courts of the house of God and in the square by the Water Gate and the one by the Gate of Ephraim. The whole company that had returned from exile built temporary shelters and lived in them. From the days of Joshua son of Nun until that day, the Israelites had not celebrated it like this. And their joy was very great. Day after day, from the first day to the last, Ezra read from the Book of the Law of God. They celebrated the festival for seven days, and on the eighth day, in accordance with the regulation, there was an assembly.
All the people came together as one in the square before the Water Gate. They told Ezra the teacher of the Law to bring out the Book of the Law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded for Israel. So on the first day of the seventh month Ezra the priest brought the Law before the assembly, which was made up of men and women and all who were able to understand. He read it aloud from daybreak till noon as he faced the square before the Water Gate in the presence of the men, women and others who could understand. And all the people listened attentively to the Book of the Law. Ezra the teacher of the Law stood on a high wooden platform (also called a pulpit) built for the occasion. Beside him on his right stood Mattithiah, Shema, Anaiah, Uriah, Hilkiah and Maaseiah; and on his left were Pedaiah, Mishael, Malkijah, Hashum, Hashbaddanah, Zechariah and Meshullam. Ezra opened the book. All the people could see him because he was standing above them; and as he opened it, the people all stood up. Ezra praised the LORD, the great God; and all the people lifted their hands and responded, “Amen! Amen!” Then they bowed down and worshiped the LORD with their faces to the ground. The Levites—Jeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan and Pelaiah—instructed the people in the Law while the people were standing there. They read from the Book of the Law of God, making it clear and giving the meaning so that the people understood what was being read. Then Nehemiah the governor, Ezra the priest and teacher of the Law, and the Levites who were instructing the people said to them all, “This day is holy to the LORD your God. Do not mourn or weep.” For all the people had been weeping as they listened to the words of the Law. Nehemiah said, “Go and enjoy choice food and sweet drinks, and send some to those who have nothing prepared. This day is holy to our Lord. Do not grieve, for the joy of the LORD is your strength.” The Levites calmed all the people, saying, “Be still, for this is a holy day. Do not grieve.” Then all the people went away to eat and drink, to send portions of food and to celebrate with great joy, because they now understood the words that had been made known to them. On the second day of the month, the heads of all the families, along with the priests and the Levites, gathered around Ezra the teacher to give attention to the words of the Law. They found written in the Law, which the LORD had commanded through Moses, that the Israelites were to live in temporary shelters during the festival of the seventh month and that they should proclaim this word and spread it throughout their towns and in Jerusalem: “Go out into the hill country and bring back branches from olive and wild olive trees, and from myrtles, palms and shade trees, to make temporary shelters”—as it is written. So the people went out and brought back branches and built themselves temporary shelters on their own roofs, in their courtyards, in the courts of the house of God and in the square by the Water Gate and the one by the Gate of Ephraim. The whole company that had returned from exile built temporary shelters and lived in them. From the days of Joshua son of Nun until that day, the Israelites had not celebrated it like this. And their joy was very great. Day after day, from the first day to the last, Ezra read from the Book of the Law of God. They celebrated the festival for seven days, and on the eighth day, in accordance with the regulation, there was an assembly.