Parable

[Patrick0269]

In Isaiah 53. What is the parable you have the physical and then you have the spiritual. What are the two?

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hello again Patrick (@Patrick0269), I'm not sure what you are referring to in the OP, so could you elaborate a bit for us (BTW, why do you believe that Isaiah 53 is a parable instead of a prophesy?)

Thanks

~Deuteronomy
p.s. - for the sake of the discussion, here's the entire Chapter.

Isaiah 53 (NASB 95')​

1 Who has believed our message? ​

And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? ​

2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, ​

And like a root out of parched ground; ​

He has no stately form or majesty ​

That we should look upon Him, ​

Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him. ​

3 He was despised and forsaken of men, ​

A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; ​

And like one from whom men hide their face ​

He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. ​

​

4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, ​

And our sorrows He carried; ​

Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, ​

Smitten of God, and afflicted. ​

5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, ​

He was crushed for our iniquities; ​

The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, ​

And by His scourging we are healed. ​

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, ​

Each of us has turned to his own way; ​

But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all ​

To fall on Him. ​

​

7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, ​

Yet He did not open His mouth; ​

Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, ​

And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, ​

So He did not open His mouth. ​

8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away; ​

And as for His generation, who considered ​

That He was cut off out of the land of the living ​

For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due? ​

9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, ​

Yet He was with a rich man in His death, ​

Because He had done no violence, ​

Nor was there any deceit in His mouth. ​

​

10 But the LORD was pleased ​

To crush Him, bputting Him to grief; ​

If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, ​

He will see His offspring, ​

He will prolong His days, ​

And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. ​

11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, ​

He will see it and be satisfied; ​

By His knowledge the Righteous One, ​

My Servant, will justify the many, ​

As He will bear their iniquities. ​

12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, ​

And He will divide the booty with the strong; ​

Because He poured out bHimself to death, ​

And was numbered with the transgressors; ​

Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, ​

And interceded for the transgressors. ​

.

 

[Patrick0269]

Hello again Patrick (@Patrick0269), I'm not sure what you are referring to in the OP, so could you elaborate a bit for us (BTW, why do you believe that Isaiah 53 is a parable instead of a prophesy?)

Thanks

~Deuteronomy
p.s. - for the sake of the discussion, here's the entire Chapter.

Isaiah 53 (NASB 95')​

1 Who has believed our message? ​

And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? ​

2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, ​

And like a root out of parched ground; ​

He has no stately form or majesty ​

That we should look upon Him, ​

Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him. ​

3 He was despised and forsaken of men, ​

A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; ​

And like one from whom men hide their face ​

He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. ​

​

4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, ​

And our sorrows He carried; ​

Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, ​

Smitten of God, and afflicted. ​

5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, ​

He was crushed for our iniquities; ​

The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, ​

And by His scourging we are healed. ​

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, ​

Each of us has turned to his own way; ​

But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all ​

To fall on Him. ​

​

7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, ​

Yet He did not open His mouth; ​

Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, ​

And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, ​

So He did not open His mouth. ​

8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away; ​

And as for His generation, who considered ​

That He was cut off out of the land of the living ​

For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due? ​

9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, ​

Yet He was with a rich man in His death, ​

Because He had done no violence, ​

Nor was there any deceit in His mouth. ​

​

10 But the LORD was pleased ​

To crush Him, bputting Him to grief; ​

If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, ​

He will see His offspring, ​

He will prolong His days, ​

And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. ​

11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, ​

He will see it and be satisfied; ​

By His knowledge the Righteous One, ​

My Servant, will justify the many, ​

As He will bear their iniquities. ​

12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, ​

And He will divide the booty with the strong; ​

Because He poured out bHimself to death, ​

And was numbered with the transgressors; ​

Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, ​

And interceded for the transgressors. ​

.

 

[Patrick0269]

It talks about the physical and the spiritual. So the physical is Jesus that he is talking about. And the spiritual is the tree of life. You see how it says that they had to turn their eyes away from them that they couldn’t look at them. That’s because Jesus and the tree of life in the garden of Eden were both ugly. Jesus came that way on purpose. The Jews thought the Messiah was going to be a king a beautiful man and have all this stuff. That’s why he came as an ugly man. The whole time that Adam and Eve were in the garden. They could’ve ate from the tree of life. And they would’ve never seen and lived forever. But the reason they didn’t eat from that tree, because it was the ugliest tree in the garden?

 

[Patrick0269]

Sinned

 

[Deuteronomy]

Oh, and one more thing, at the bottom of your Intro post you wrote this,

I’m over in the Bible discussion for him. Why don’t you come join there? The words of men are death and the words of Jesus are life. Articles have no concern. Only the Bible and the Bible only. I would love to discuss it with you.

The articles that I posited for you to consider over there (from GotQuestions.org) are indeed the words of men (talking about what the words of God in the Bible mean). If such words (from men) about the Bible are death (useless), then how can we hope to discuss the Bible here, amongst ourselves, seeing that we too, are men (IOW, how can we have a discussion about the Bible w/o using "our" words to do so?)

Thanks

 

[Patrick0269]

Our job is the fantasy and then I’ll let Jesus make it grow. I’m just saying that everything in the Bible is a parable. The physical and the spiritual yes Isaiah 53 is about the prophecy about Jesus but it’s also about the tree of life. I’m just saying, let’s just use Bible quotes.

 

[Patrick0269]

Seed

 

[Deuteronomy]

I've got to call it a night Patrick. However, I hope to return here tomorrow evening

Again, welcome to CChat!

~Deuteronomy

 

[Patrick0269]

Have a blessed night

 

[tablet123]

In Isaiah 53. What is the parable you have the physical and then you have the spiritual. What are the two?

You must be thinking of 1 Corinthians 15 or you never knew and heard from someone or got mixed up.

There is nothing in Isaiah 53 concerning this.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain.

The saints have a physical body and then will have a spiritual body like the spiritual body of the man Christ Jesus.

They shall be changed which their physical body will sprout to be a spiritual body like a seed sprouts to be a plant.

 

[Patrick0269]

You must be thinking of 1 Corinthians 15 or you never knew and heard from someone or got mixed up.

There is nothing in Isaiah 53 concerning this.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain.

The saints have a physical body and then will have a spiritual body like the spiritual body of the man Christ Jesus.

They shall be changed which their physical body will sprout to be a spiritual body like a seed sprouts to be a plant.

Jesus said he is a tree of life. He’s talking about spirituality. Jesus is a physical as a form of a man.

 

[GWH]

Ultimate truth may be conveyed via both figurative language such as Jesus is the bread of life and literal language such as John 3:16.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Jesus said he is a tree of life. He’s talking about spirituality. Jesus is a physical as a form of a man.

Hello again Patrick, although a spiritualized conclusion can be drawn from the several similarities that (in a sense anyway) the Tree of Life shares with the Lord Jesus, He never told us that "He ~is~ the Tree of Life", did He (if He did, please give us Chapter & Verse .. thanks ).

Isaiah 53:2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of parched ground;

This imagery, of Him growing up like a plant of some sort in v2 is the place (in Isaiah 53) that you made the spiritualized connection between the Lord Jesus and the Tree of Life, yes (because I see nothing else in Chapter 53 that might lead you to that conclusion). For what it's worth, the word that is translated there as "tender shoot" describes something along the lines of a (humble) little bush, rather than a (proud) giant tree (which certainly fits the context of Isaiah 53).

He has no stately form or majesty that we should look upon Him, nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.

You see how it says that they had to turn their eyes away from them that they couldn’t look at them. That’s because Jesus and the tree of life in the garden of Eden were both ugly. Jesus came that way on purpose.

While I agree with you that Jesus looked the way that He did "on purpose", I don't believe that there is any indication (in Isaiah 53 or elsewhere) that He was "ugly", but simply "common" in appearance instead (because "ugly" can also make someone stand out physically too).

Also, the Tree of Life is never spoken of as being "ugly" in the Bible (from Genesis to Revelation), quite the opposite, in fact (e.g. Genesis 2:9).

Genesis 2 (NASB 2020)​

9 Out of the ground the LORD God caused every tree to grow that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.​

2 ...He has no stately form or majesty that we should look upon Him, nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.

Since He certainly could have chosen to appear to us as the most physically attractive human being of all time, why did He choose to go with a different look instead IOW, what was His "purpose" in doing so

Thanks!

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

Hebrews 12​

2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.​

.

 

[Patrick0269]

Hello again Patrick, although a spiritualized conclusion can be drawn from the several similarities that (in a sense anyway) the Tree of Life shares with the Lord Jesus, He never told us that "He ~is~ the Tree of Life", did He (if He did, please give us Chapter & Verse .. thanks ).


This imagery, of Him growing up like a plant of some sort in v2 is the place (in Isaiah 53) that you made the spiritualized connection between the Lord Jesus and the Tree of Life, yes (because I see nothing else in Chapter 53 that might lead you to that conclusion). For what it's worth, the word that is translated there as "tender shoot" describes something along the lines of a (humble) little bush, rather than a (proud) giant tree (which certainly fits the context of Isaiah 53).



While I agree with you that Jesus looked the way that He did "on purpose", I don't believe that there is any indication (in Isaiah 53 or elsewhere) that He was "ugly", but simply "common" in appearance instead (because "ugly" can also make someone stand out physically too).

Also, the Tree of Life is never spoken of as being "ugly" in the Bible (from Genesis to Revelation), quite the opposite, in fact (e.g. Genesis 2:9).

Genesis 2 (NASB 2020)​

9 Out of the ground the LORD God caused every tree to grow that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.​

Since He certainly could have chosen to appear to us as the most physically attractive human being of all time, why did He choose to go with a different look instead IOW, what was His "purpose" in doing so

Thanks!

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

Hebrews 12​

2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.​

.

His purpose and doing so it’s because the Jews were expecting my Messiah to look like a king and majestic. Their idea of a Messiah was to destroy room and make their nation great again. But that wasn’t his purpose. His purpose was to show them who God really is. The Jews back then and most people today believe that God is good and evil. That God kills. But Jesus don’t kill. Jesus is not evil. Jesus is only good. It says that he was the same yesterday today and tomorrow. If you recall when they went into Samaria to buy food and we turned away, jeans, and John said that Jesus let’s bring fire and brimstone down and destroy this place. Jesus said to them, get behind me, Satan. I was having a long discussion today about the word. I’ll give you an example. When Moses send that the rock and Maribeth, what was his sin? Jesus told him to speak to the rock. Instead, he struck it with the staff. What Moses was supposed to do was to show the people that the power is in the word. He was going to transfer the power from the staff to the word. Just like Jesus said, if you believe and tell that mountain to move, it will move. The whole Bible’s about words. Just like why do humans have souls and animals don’t. The difference is that we speak words. The whole Bible is based on this. Jesus didn’t say it was a tree of life, but he said everything else like I’m the bread of life. I’m the water of life. It’s all about our words. Jesus said it’s not what you put into your mouth that the defiles you , but what comes out of your mouth let me know what your thoughts are on that

 

[Deuteronomy]

His purpose and doing so it’s because the Jews were expecting my Messiah to look like a king and majestic. Their idea of a Messiah was to destroy Rome and make their nation great again.

Hello Patrick, while I agree with your second sentence above, where does the Bible tell us that they expected the Messiah to "look" like a king (or anything else, for that matter)

Thanks!

~Deuteronomy

 

[Patrick0269]

His purpose and doing so it’s because the Jews were expecting my Messiah to look like a king and majestic. Their idea of a Messiah was to destroy room and make their nation great again. But that wasn’t his purpose. His purpose was to show them who God really is. The Jews back then and most people today believe that God is good and evil. That God kills. But Jesus don’t kill. Jesus is not evil. Jesus is only good. It says that he was the same yesterday today and tomorrow. If you recall when they went into Samaria to buy food and we turned away, jeans, and John said that Jesus let’s bring fire and brimstone down and destroy this place. Jesus said to them, get behind me, Satan. I was having a long discussion today about the word. I’ll give you an example. When Moses send that the rock and Maribeth, what was his sin? Jesus told him to speak to the rock. Instead, he struck it with the staff. What Moses was supposed to do was to show the people that the power is in the word. He was going to transfer the power from the staff to the word. Just like Jesus said, if you believe and tell that mountain to move, it will move. The whole Bible’s about words. Just like why do humans have souls and animals don’t. The difference is that we speak words. The whole Bible is based on this. Jesus didn’t say it was a tree of life, but he said everything else like I’m the bread of life. I’m the water of life. It’s all about our words. Jesus said it’s not what you put into your mouth that the defiles you , but what comes out of your mouth let me know what your thoughts are on that

Hello Patrick, while I agree with your second sentence above, where does the Bible tell us that they expected the Messiah to "look" like a king (or anything else, for that matter)

Thanks!

~Deuteronomy

The Jews expected him to look that way. Isaiah 53 tells us how he was gonna look.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Their idea of a Messiah was to destroy Rome and make their nation great again. But that wasn’t his purpose. His purpose was to show them who God really is.

So, if Jesus was born, let's say, ruggedly handsome (instead of plain), how would that fact have interfered with His purpose (to show them who God really is)

Thanks again!

~Deuteronomy

 

[Patrick0269]

So, if Jesus was born, let's say, ruggedly handsome (instead of plain), how would that fact have interfered with His purpose (to show them who God really is)

Thanks again!

~Deuteronomy

That don’t matter. Because Isaiah 53 says that he wasn’t. That would just be me speculating. Whatever Jesus speaks, that’s what happens. That’s all I know. That’s just like how did Jesus resurrect from the grave? Because he spoke it. He never lies.

 

[Deuteronomy]

The Jews expected him to "look" that way. Isaiah 53 tells us how he was gonna look.

The Bible tells us what they expected Messiah to "be", but where does the Bible (or even Jewish tradition) tell us what they expected Him to "look" like