Hah! Where did you run to after the "only two??" remark, you brave man?
Have you popped back up like a Whack-A-Mole?
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Hah! Where did you run to after the "only two??" remark, you brave man?
Have you popped back up like a Whack-A-Mole?
Someone, I think it was Depleted, mentioned we were specifically talking about pastors, and woman prophets don't count as being in authority. I wonder, were Moses and the other OT prophets not considered to be in authority? What about Deborah?
excerpt from a blog (not mine):
excerpt from a blog (not mine):
(2 Cor 3:5-6): Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
This thread seems to be an example of the letter of the law 'killing'. I have some more responses but first let me go through Paul's arguments against women in authority:
1. Adam was made first and women was made from adam;
2. Adam was not deceived, Eve was;
3. It is in accordance with the Law.
Deborah of Judges 4 was the prophet and judge of Israel (chosen by God) some 2,000+ years earlier. She held court and is explicitly described conveying God's commands to men. This turns those 3 points on their head.
If you claim that the Bible says women can't have authority over men and that settles it, you are saying Deborah didn't have authority over men -- the Bible says she did. Furthermore you are using scripture to say God can't do it again. God can do what God wants to do.
I agree there is a push of worldly ethics to have equal representation of women leaders, and this is not from God. But neither is the push of religious ethics to say women can never be given authority over man by God. So I hold that while God established men to lead in general, he makes exceptions to keep us in balance, and thank God for that -- because it means He is leading us instead of our own traditions and interpretations leading us.
This thread seems to be an example of the letter of the law 'killing'. I have some more responses but first let me go through Paul's arguments against women in authority:
1. Adam was made first and women was made from adam;
2. Adam was not deceived, Eve was;
3. It is in accordance with the Law.
Deborah of Judges 4 was the prophet and judge of Israel (chosen by God) some 2,000+ years earlier. She held court and is explicitly described conveying God's commands to men. This turns those 3 points on their head.
If you claim that the Bible says women can't have authority over men and that settles it, you are saying Deborah didn't have authority over men -- the Bible says she did. Furthermore you are using scripture to say God can't do it again. God can do what God wants to do.
I agree there is a push of worldly ethics to have equal representation of women leaders, and this is not from God. But neither is the push of religious ethics to say women can never be given authority over man by God. So I hold that while God established men to lead in general, he makes exceptions to keep us in balance, and thank God for that -- because it means He is leading us instead of our own traditions and interpretations leading us.
As I see it, you're half right. I agree that feminism exerts a corrupting pressure on the church, but so does religiosity. The enemy creates two camps to fight eachother, in the hope that as people choose sides, no one will choose the Holy Spirit's side. "If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand." And that's one reason why"blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God."
Where I disagree with you is when you say the Bible is clear. That includes all of the Bible. Paul is clear on his position -- the Bible is more than Paul. And the truth of God which the spirit of truth leads us into is more than the Bible.
'Men always leading except in rare occasions' is not always. You are not making exceptions for these occasions in your arguments. You judge a church led by a woman as being out of order, without heed to the Holy Spirit's sovereignty to do as he will. So if this is one of those occasions where the Holy Spirit has placed a woman in leadership, you have judged what the Holy Spirit is doing and called it vanity and selfishness. Which spirit do you think talks about the Holy Spirit that way?
I think the Holy Spirit should be allowed to speak to me by any means possible and whatever means necessary. I would rather have the Holy Spirit's activity than a nice safe church system. I'm sure Balaam would agree that God can speak through and use whatever God wants, because it saved Balaam's life 3 times. Imagine -- what if no one else could hear the donkey or see the angel? Do you think Balaam would have cared what they thought?
With that said, there may be men who want to hear a woman preach because it appeals to their pride as progressives, and their political identity, and the Holy Spirit might not be involved with that at all. But again, you made no exception. So like Elizabeth, it seems to me that you're only half right.
Oh I don't think it's that bad =]
We are fighting an enemy that is using the same tactics he has always used, mix a lot of truth with a little lie to make a big lie, then get people fighting over it so they can hurt eachother and buy into more lies.
But God sees the truth in all of our positions, it's all his, and God can lead us into his Whole truth through it.
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Ariel82
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phil112
Guest
The donkey from a few thousand years ago has absolutely zero to do with this subject today.
What you are trying to make us believe is that the Spirit of God, an entity He uses to carry out His will, can and does just nilly willy circumvent it at times.
Are you listening to yourself? Son, a house divided cannot stand. God's Spirit, nor His Son, will go against His will.
The article PW gave to read has a lot to say about why Paul cited the law, then did not actually GIVE the law he was citing as was his habit in every other place where he cites law. Every, single other time he does it, he gives the verse. Suddenly here, he leaves his usual habit. I found the quotation explanation to be extremely plausible, but it did take me some focus of mind to grasp it. It explains the contradictions of Paul I had always noted. After I read it, I was saying, oh, poor Paul!
The donkey was just an example of God speaking by unconventional means. All of the Bible happened thousands of years ago, so I hope that's not your argument against it.
And if so many centuries ago, God used women in authority, why would you assume that to do so now is against God's will? Could it be it's only against your interpretation of God's will?
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Chuckt
Guest
I'm beginning to see that some people just aren't willing to do the work of looking at a video or reading an article. They already have their minds made up and they aren't really interested in any new scholarship, even though we were told that in the last days knowledge would increase. I guess it feels better to them to remain where they are and continue in their same patterns. It's sad, but...you can't help someone not willing to do a little work. So now I'm off to tackle another problem area for me - tongues! (As if I didn't learn enough about the tongue in here!)
This has been a good and productive thread! Ciao!
)This has been a good and productive thread! Ciao!
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Chuckt
Guest
I'm beginning to see that some people just aren't willing to do the work of looking at a video or reading an article. They already have their minds made up and they aren't really interested in any new scholarship, even though we were told that in the last days knowledge would increase. I guess it feels better to them to remain where they are and continue in their same patterns. It's sad, but...you can't help someone not willing to do a little work. So now I'm off to tackle another problem area for me - tongues! (As if I didn't learn enough about the tongue in here!
This has been a good and productive thread! Ciao!
I watched the first fourteen minutes of it and basically the people holding to the egalitarian position (female pastors) were polled and didn't believe things like Job was a real person or that Jonah was really swallowed by a whale. So what I see is basically that a lot of liberals that don't believe the Bible hold to a egalitarianism position of the Bible. So basically they are keeping company with unbelievers. Those who don't believe the whole Bible are determining people's faith.
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Ariel82
Guest
The question then becomes what is God's will?
God often goes against written law He gave the Israelites because they obeyed the letter and not the Spirit.
He had His prophets do many things that offended the Pharisees and high priests because they were deemed unclean....one prophet was commanded to marry a prositute to show how Israel was whoring after other gods and idols....one was told to cook his food over human sung..later amended to cow....
Samson broke his calling by eating honey from a dead lion and having his hair cut.
God turns upside down the wisdom of worldly men.
All the Bible is true and inspired word of God, but not all human use and understanding is from God. Because even Satan quotes and twists the Bible out of context to tempt and condemn God's people.
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Ariel82
Guest
Sorry I read the article and didn't see how it would convince anyone from the opposing side and from the sound of it the video does more harm then help in the discussion....everyone is asleep and don't really care for videos anyway.
Jonah was swallowed by a fish and Job was a real person. God has used women and men both to do His work in this world.
Why such strong opposition to women pastors? Do you object as strongly to single men being pastors or men whose children get drunk, commit adultery, etc being pastors?
Because if you are okay with those men being pastors, then you are a hypocrite and don't follow the scriptures you quote forbidding women pastors.
Or you can explain how you can make exception to how the scriptures say that a bishop must have one wife, manage an orderly household and have obedient children?
Jonah was swallowed by a fish and Job was a real person. God has used women and men both to do His work in this world.
Why such strong opposition to women pastors? Do you object as strongly to single men being pastors or men whose children get drunk, commit adultery, etc being pastors?
Because if you are okay with those men being pastors, then you are a hypocrite and don't follow the scriptures you quote forbidding women pastors.
Or you can explain how you can make exception to how the scriptures say that a bishop must have one wife, manage an orderly household and have obedient children?
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Chuckt
Guest
I'm sure there are a number of homosexuals who are egalitarians.
Egalitarianism and Homosexuality | The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (CBMW)
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Ariel82
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Ariel82
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Make it easy for you, you can answer simply yes or no...,
1. Can an unmarried or divorced man be a pastor?
2. Can a man whose children are not Christian or have blatant disregard for Christian morals (drunkeness, promiscuity, etc.) be a pastor?
1. Can an unmarried or divorced man be a pastor?
2. Can a man whose children are not Christian or have blatant disregard for Christian morals (drunkeness, promiscuity, etc.) be a pastor?
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phil112
Guest
His will is His word. There can be no doubt as to that. His word is what we will be judged by and His word is what we must obey to reach heaven. His will is His word.
You will have no excuse on that day. It is written.
mene, mene, tekel, upharsin
We ARE NOT jews. We are gentiles. The words of Christ are the only ones we will be judged by. The new testament, Christ's words, are His instructions to us.
Again, you will have no excuse on that day. You have been warned. Your blood is on your hands.
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