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Poll of polls on the longest running debate:
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But according to you if you lose your faith you lose your salvation. How is that possible when His grace is irrevocable?
Yup, sure is the longest running theological debate. Anyway, I chose option 2 and 3, as those are closest to what I believe.
I will say, though, that although one cannot say imo that one can lose faith and still be saved, one can believe, and hope, that God's Grace will keep you from failing in the faith until the end. This is the Augustinian idea of Perseverance in the Faith being a distinct Grace from Initial Justification. After Justification, we must pray for Perseverance. If/when we receive it (and we surely will receive it, if we persist in asking for it, since God has promised to give us the good things we ask for, according to His will and wills all of us to be saved and not perish), after that, His Grace will keep us from ever denying faith.
In the Calvinist idea of TULIP, the P in TULIP stands for "Perseverance of the Saints". St. Augustine also wrote about Perseverance, and Calvin said his idea of Perseverance was based on what Augustine wrote, but the two are slightly different. Here is an excerpt from that work.
"Chapter 9.— When Perseverance is Granted to a Person, He Cannot But Persevere.
Now, moreover, when the saints say, Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, Matthew 6:13 what do they pray for but that they may persevere in holiness? For, assuredly, when that gift of God is granted to them — which is sufficiently plainly shown to be God's gift, since it is asked of Him — that gift of God, then, being granted to them that they may not be led into temptation, none of the saints fails to keep his perseverance in holiness even to the end. For there is not any one who ceases to persevere in the Christian purpose unless he is first of all led into temptation. If, therefore, it be granted to him according to his prayer that he may not be led, certainly by the gift of God he persists in that sanctification which by the gift of God he has received." https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm
So, in other words, after you receive the Grace of Perseverance (distinct from the Grace of Justification), and you receive this Grace, for e.g. by saying Our Lord's Prayer, the Our Father, often, and specifically asking for this Grace, after that, you will never fall from your Faith in Christ, and thus persist in the sanctification you have received, and so be saved.
That's the traditional/Augustinian view of the Church Fathers, which could perhaps be called "OPAS" (Once Perseverance is given, Always Saved), and several Biblical passages imo accord with this Truth. Will cite those later on.
God Bless.
I will say, though, that although one cannot say imo that one can lose faith and still be saved, one can believe, and hope, that God's Grace will keep you from failing in the faith until the end. This is the Augustinian idea of Perseverance in the Faith being a distinct Grace from Initial Justification. After Justification, we must pray for Perseverance. If/when we receive it (and we surely will receive it, if we persist in asking for it, since God has promised to give us the good things we ask for, according to His will and wills all of us to be saved and not perish), after that, His Grace will keep us from ever denying faith.
In the Calvinist idea of TULIP, the P in TULIP stands for "Perseverance of the Saints". St. Augustine also wrote about Perseverance, and Calvin said his idea of Perseverance was based on what Augustine wrote, but the two are slightly different. Here is an excerpt from that work.
"Chapter 9.— When Perseverance is Granted to a Person, He Cannot But Persevere.
Now, moreover, when the saints say, Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, Matthew 6:13 what do they pray for but that they may persevere in holiness? For, assuredly, when that gift of God is granted to them — which is sufficiently plainly shown to be God's gift, since it is asked of Him — that gift of God, then, being granted to them that they may not be led into temptation, none of the saints fails to keep his perseverance in holiness even to the end. For there is not any one who ceases to persevere in the Christian purpose unless he is first of all led into temptation. If, therefore, it be granted to him according to his prayer that he may not be led, certainly by the gift of God he persists in that sanctification which by the gift of God he has received." https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm
So, in other words, after you receive the Grace of Perseverance (distinct from the Grace of Justification), and you receive this Grace, for e.g. by saying Our Lord's Prayer, the Our Father, often, and specifically asking for this Grace, after that, you will never fall from your Faith in Christ, and thus persist in the sanctification you have received, and so be saved.
That's the traditional/Augustinian view of the Church Fathers, which could perhaps be called "OPAS" (Once Perseverance is given, Always Saved), and several Biblical passages imo accord with this Truth. Will cite those later on.
God Bless.
No, it is not me that says that faith is necessary to be saved: the Bible says that.
How is it possible to be lost? when one does not have faith in Jesus Christ.
And grace? Yes, hallelujah, amen - God's grace is the enabling power that even allows us to respond in faith to Him. No one would be saved if His grace did not flow freely.
the issue is your trust in is Christ. and his work.
If you then say you can lose faith (lose salvation) your faith is not really in Christ. its in your ability to continue in the faith.
which is contradictory..
And what of Rom 2:6-7 which says this? "6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." What is your exegesis of that passage?
The error is in thinking that Perseverance is entirely a human work. It is not. It is a Divine Gift, as St. Augustine says above, that we ask for, and are urged to ask for daily, when we say the Lord's Prayer, when we pray not to be led to temptation.
God Bless.
if you want to be saved by how good you are (phariseeism). you will fail. because Gods standard is perfection.
If you want to be saved by Grace and EMPOWERED to by persistence seek to honor and glorify God. you will become like the tax Collector.
Well, regarding your first sentence, that's not the verse says. The verse says we are to persist in doing good, and, if we do, God will give us eternal life in due time, because He will "repay each person according to what they have done" (verse 6).
Regarding your second sentence, I agree. It is by Grace that we are empowered to Persevere. Neither, with that Grace, are we unable to persevere, nor, without that Grace, would we be able to Persevere. And we are to ask for that Grace by Prayer, especially the Lord's Prayer, where e.g. we ask to not be led into temptation, and delivered from all evil. God Bless.
Regarding your second sentence, I agree. It is by Grace that we are empowered to Persevere. Neither, with that Grace, are we unable to persevere, nor, without that Grace, would we be able to Persevere. And we are to ask for that Grace by Prayer, especially the Lord's Prayer, where e.g. we ask to not be led into temptation, and delivered from all evil. God Bless.
Then we are under law. and not under grace.
The verse you keep quoting is a descriptive verse, not a prescriptive verse.
It tells what they do. not what they MUST DO.
you still will not be sinless. which is Gods requirment
Then why did Our Lord Jesus Himself say it in the New Testament here? “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work." (Rev 22:12)
Do you believe in eternal rewards for good works done in faith according 1 Cor 3:8 and 3:13-15: "8He who plants and he who waters are one in purpose,a and each will be rewarded according to his own labor ... 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames."
We are not under the Law. We don't have to keep circumcision, Sabbaths, animal sacrifices, or the 613 precepts the Jews keep. We do however have to Love God and Neighbor. The Good Works we are called to do are those mentioned by Christ in Mat 25:34 etc. If feeding the poor, clothing the naked, visiting the prisoner etc, were not good works that have eternal rewards, which we are called to do, why did Christ mention them at the Judgment in that chapter?
Here is the passage: "34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’
Do you believe in eternal rewards for good works done in faith according 1 Cor 3:8 and 3:13-15: "8He who plants and he who waters are one in purpose,a and each will be rewarded according to his own labor ... 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames."
We are not under the Law. We don't have to keep circumcision, Sabbaths, animal sacrifices, or the 613 precepts the Jews keep. We do however have to Love God and Neighbor. The Good Works we are called to do are those mentioned by Christ in Mat 25:34 etc. If feeding the poor, clothing the naked, visiting the prisoner etc, were not good works that have eternal rewards, which we are called to do, why did Christ mention them at the Judgment in that chapter?
Here is the passage: "34Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’
salvation is by grace it is a gift. not a reward
God will reward people. gold silver precious stone, wood hay and straw as well as many other things. Those are not salvation.
You need to seperate the two. If you reject grace the only reward you will get is hell
I agree Salvation is by Grace. But what does the Reward mean in the 3 passages I quoted? Please explain them 1 by 1.
Your soteriology is incomplete. Initial Justification is Pure Grace. It happens by faith and is instantaneous and monergistic.
Sanctification is synergistic. It happens through Good Works, Prayers, Alms, Fasting etc. All this is part of Christian Life.
Perseverance is a Grace that God gives later on, not necessarily at the same time as Justification. Once a person receives the Grace of Perseverance from God, which could be after many years of walking with the Lord, after that he will not fall away.
Your soteriology is incomplete. Initial Justification is Pure Grace. It happens by faith and is instantaneous and monergistic.
Sanctification is synergistic. It happens through Good Works, Prayers, Alms, Fasting etc. All this is part of Christian Life.
Perseverance is a Grace that God gives later on, not necessarily at the same time as Justification. Once a person receives the Grace of Perseverance from God, which could be after many years of walking with the Lord, after that he will not fall away.
Lol
we are saved by grace
if it is grace it is no longer of works
those who are saved have eternal life
you are trying to preach conditional life.
there is no initial justification, we are either justified or we are not.
i told you already, those passages are descriptive, not prescriptive. IE, Gods people DO WORKS because they are saved, Not to get saved.
Salvation is indeed a FREE GIFT!
how many times have we gotten FREE CHRISTMAS GIFTS and either have returned them for money, something else, or just hid it out of sight never to use/wear it?
a person has the same right to do that with Salvation. they can give it back, refuse to accept it after awhile, pretend it never happened and live like they did before.
not sure why this is so difficult for the ultimate Grace pushers to accept.
maybe they need to be reminded that Denial [[is not]] a River that runs through Egypt!
how many times have we gotten FREE CHRISTMAS GIFTS and either have returned them for money, something else, or just hid it out of sight never to use/wear it?
a person has the same right to do that with Salvation. they can give it back, refuse to accept it after awhile, pretend it never happened and live like they did before.
not sure why this is so difficult for the ultimate Grace pushers to accept.
maybe they need to be reminded that Denial [[is not]] a River that runs through Egypt!
I feel like I’m back at catholic grammar school with this nonsense.
You pray to Mary?