(Pre) Millennialism/Chiliaism
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Here's What Happens Before, During and After the Coming Millennium
5)
is it possible to see all the passages which specifically mention the end of the world?
i know there's room for discussion and debate in here since we seem to disagree on dispensations and ages and worlds and whatnot.
i'll repost what Jesus said about how many dispensations, or ages or worlds there are/were.
if you have something else, some other interpretation of what He said, could you post it?
how many "worlds to come" did He mention?
ty.
Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
5)
is it possible to see all the passages which specifically mention the end of the world?
i know there's room for discussion and debate in here since we seem to disagree on dispensations and ages and worlds and whatnot.
i'll repost what Jesus said about how many dispensations, or ages or worlds there are/were.
if you have something else, some other interpretation of what He said, could you post it?
how many "worlds to come" did He mention?
ty.
Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mark 10:30
But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
attendant to the above post:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/59261-why-what-rule-christ.html < click
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/59261-why-what-rule-christ.html < click
Matthew 28
The Great Commission
16Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inb the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
The Great Commission
16Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them inb the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
1 Thessalonians 4
The Coming of the Lord
13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,d that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
does this say anything about coming back down to this old earth and setting up a kingdom with flesh people living and sinning or living under law and procreating, or a dual existence?
does it say anything at all about some people (Jews or other) remaining on earth in a kingdom of their own, while Jesus and His Bride are off somewhere else?
where? where does this chapter, or any other chapter say anything remotely like that?
1 Corinthians 15
The Resurrection of the Dead
12Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If in Christ we have hopeb in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
20But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “Godc has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1 Corinthians 15
Mystery and Victory
50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
we do?
we see satan is unable to act any longer?
really?
here's the entire foundation for The Future exactly 1,000 year, old earth reign of Jesus Christ from (either: heaven - having come and removed His Bride from earth while Jews or other live and reign on earth in some variations), or in Person on this earth having returned from a mystery period and event in heaven, when He then becomes King on earth and rules over flesh (in some variations) or floating spirit beings (in others); with either Jewish priests, or a combination of saved Gentile and Jewish believers ministering to and/or with flesh Jews (and/or others) who survived the tribulation....or any other collection of details one can imagine).
is ANY of that actually said here, in the only place this theology/eschatology came from?
does this passage actually say:
Satan is bound for the 1,000 years and unable to act any longer.?
Revelation 20
The Thousand Years
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pita and a great chain. 2And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
The Defeat of Satan
7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heavenb and consumed them, 10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
all it says is:
so that he might not deceive the nations any longer
then it saysSatan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
even if the thousand years is an exact, literal 1000 years (365 or 360 days per year, down to the millisecond), and is in the future after Jesus comes and sets up a Kingdom......what it does not say is this:
satan is unable to act any longer.
it clearly, and without any added details says only this:so that he might not deceive the nations any longer.
it does not say:
satan is unable to act any longer.
and we really should stop claiming it does say that. it doesn't.
nowhere.
we see satan is unable to act any longer?
really?
here's the entire foundation for The Future exactly 1,000 year, old earth reign of Jesus Christ from (either: heaven - having come and removed His Bride from earth while Jews or other live and reign on earth in some variations), or in Person on this earth having returned from a mystery period and event in heaven, when He then becomes King on earth and rules over flesh (in some variations) or floating spirit beings (in others); with either Jewish priests, or a combination of saved Gentile and Jewish believers ministering to and/or with flesh Jews (and/or others) who survived the tribulation....or any other collection of details one can imagine).
is ANY of that actually said here, in the only place this theology/eschatology came from?
does this passage actually say:
Satan is bound for the 1,000 years and unable to act any longer.?
Revelation 20
The Thousand Years
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pita and a great chain. 2And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
The Defeat of Satan
7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heavenb and consumed them, 10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
all it says is:
so that he might not deceive the nations any longer
then it saysSatan will be released from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
even if the thousand years is an exact, literal 1000 years (365 or 360 days per year, down to the millisecond), and is in the future after Jesus comes and sets up a Kingdom......what it does not say is this:
satan is unable to act any longer.
it clearly, and without any added details says only this:so that he might not deceive the nations any longer.
it does not say:
satan is unable to act any longer.
and we really should stop claiming it does say that. it doesn't.
nowhere.
Exodus 19:6
you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."
Isaiah 62:12
They will be called the Holy People, the Redeemed of the LORD; and you will be called Sought After, the City No Longer Deserted.
Malachi 3:17
"They will be mine," says the LORD Almighty, "in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him.
Titus 2:14
who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
Matthew 20:28
just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Acts 20:28
Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Ephesians 5:26
to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word
Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Hebrews 9:14
How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
1 Peter 1:18
For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
Peter said The Jews/Israelites were made the royal priesthood they were promised.
he said they WERE redeemed (does that mean they were but couldn't be LATER???)
and what was their responsibility and privilege as priests?
could it be this?
that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
proclaim to who?
people who needed to hear the Gospel!
what for? to be saved by Grace through faith Jesus Christ.
what did Peter say? to whom was HE sent? - Israel!
were are ALL Israelites who were ever born intended to be, or able to be those elected and saved and acting as ministers/priests (dispensers; stewards) of the New Covenant Message?
no.
so what is the Millennium FOR?
Romans 9
God’s Sovereign Choice
1I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,a my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
what else did the OTHER Israelite priest/minister/apostle (and Hebrew of Hebrews, of the tribe of Benjamin) say about all this? to whom was HE sent? - Gentiles! (and jews, and kings)
Galatians 4
Sons and Heirs
1I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave,a though he is the owner of everything, 2but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. 3In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principlesb of the world. 4But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.
Paul’s Concern for the Galatians
8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. 9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? 10You observe days and months and seasons and years! 11I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.
12Brothers,c I entreat you, become as I am, for I also have become as you are. You did me no wrong. 13You know it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you at first, 14and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus. 15What then has become of the blessing you felt? For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have gouged out your eyes and given them to me. 16Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth?d 17They make much of you, but for no good purpose. They want to shut you out, that you may make much of them. 18It is always good to be made much of for a good purpose, and not only when I am present with you, 19my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you! 20I wish I could be present with you now and change my tone, for I am perplexed about you.
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”
28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."
Isaiah 62:12
They will be called the Holy People, the Redeemed of the LORD; and you will be called Sought After, the City No Longer Deserted.
Malachi 3:17
"They will be mine," says the LORD Almighty, "in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him.
Titus 2:14
who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
Matthew 20:28
just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Acts 20:28
Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Ephesians 5:26
to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word
Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
Hebrews 9:14
How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
1 Peter 1:18
For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
Peter said The Jews/Israelites were made the royal priesthood they were promised.
he said they WERE redeemed (does that mean they were but couldn't be LATER???)
and what was their responsibility and privilege as priests?
could it be this?
that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
proclaim to who?
people who needed to hear the Gospel!
what for? to be saved by Grace through faith Jesus Christ.
what did Peter say? to whom was HE sent? - Israel!
were are ALL Israelites who were ever born intended to be, or able to be those elected and saved and acting as ministers/priests (dispensers; stewards) of the New Covenant Message?
no.
so what is the Millennium FOR?
Romans 9
God’s Sovereign Choice
1I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,a my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
what else did the OTHER Israelite priest/minister/apostle (and Hebrew of Hebrews, of the tribe of Benjamin) say about all this? to whom was HE sent? - Gentiles! (and jews, and kings)
Galatians 4
Sons and Heirs
1I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave,a though he is the owner of everything, 2but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. 3In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principlesb of the world. 4But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.
Paul’s Concern for the Galatians
8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. 9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more? 10You observe days and months and seasons and years! 11I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.
12Brothers,c I entreat you, become as I am, for I also have become as you are. You did me no wrong. 13You know it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you at first, 14and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus. 15What then has become of the blessing you felt? For I testify to you that, if possible, you would have gouged out your eyes and given them to me. 16Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth?d 17They make much of you, but for no good purpose. They want to shut you out, that you may make much of them. 18It is always good to be made much of for a good purpose, and not only when I am present with you, 19my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you! 20I wish I could be present with you now and change my tone, for I am perplexed about you.
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”
28Now you,f brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
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could you please post passages which best describe the tribulation?
what is it,
when is it,
how long does it last,
who is in it,
who isn't,
does anyone survive it?
do you mean to say here that Christians are not on earth during the tribulation?
and Jesus isn't here either?
at what point in that process did Jesus become King?
because according to some dispensationalism He isn't King right now.
and if you have Him just coming part way somewhere and taking away Christians, is it in heaven during that feast that He is crowned King?
where does it say that Ricky?
whoever is shut out of the rapture (the change in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye) STILL has a chance for a certain period of time to be saved on earth?
which scripture says that?
what is it,
when is it,
how long does it last,
who is in it,
who isn't,
does anyone survive it?
do you mean to say here that Christians are not on earth during the tribulation?
and Jesus isn't here either?
at what point in that process did Jesus become King?
because according to some dispensationalism He isn't King right now.
and if you have Him just coming part way somewhere and taking away Christians, is it in heaven during that feast that He is crowned King?
where does it say that Ricky?
whoever is shut out of the rapture (the change in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye) STILL has a chance for a certain period of time to be saved on earth?
which scripture says that?
are "these" the same ones who were raptured away earlier?
if not, when the raptured ones return with Jesus after the feast, to rule on this old earth, who is it that gets seated on thrones to rule with Christ for the 1,000 if it isn't the ones He took away before the tribulation?
where are THOSE saints (the previously raptured ones)?
why and in what way are they different from the "tribulation saints" who sit on thrones with Jesus on earth?
if not, when the raptured ones return with Jesus after the feast, to rule on this old earth, who is it that gets seated on thrones to rule with Christ for the 1,000 if it isn't the ones He took away before the tribulation?
where are THOSE saints (the previously raptured ones)?
why and in what way are they different from the "tribulation saints" who sit on thrones with Jesus on earth?
pretribulation rapture is an anomaly even within other forms of Dispensationalism/PreMillennialism, and i just won't even really deal it in this thread.
it's ridiculous and appears nowhere in scripture at all.
it's an incredible over-ride of the Jewish myth of a Future Thousand Year Messianic Age!
a preemption, if you will!
........
recommended pretrib rapture debunker and lay historian, whatever else your eschatological and theological views are:
Dave MacPherson:
Many are still unaware that the pretrib rapture idea was first publicly aired in the fall of 1830 in "The Morning Watch" (hereafter: TMW), a little-known quarterly journal published by the Irvingites (followers of famed London preacher Edward Irving) from 1829 to 1832 in Britain. Not only was this innovative publication years ahead of John Darby and his Plymouth Brethren colleagues, rapturally speaking, but in it we find shocking militancy that can be observed today in Christian Zionist preachers like John Hagee and Jerry Falwell. As early as the September 1830 issue of TMW (pp. 510-514) a writer declared that only worthy Christians (which he labeled "Philadelphia") would be raptured before "the great tribulation" and less worthy ones (labeled "Laodicea") would be left on earth. The September 1832 issue of the same journal (pp. 6-7) saw "Jews" as well as the less worthy Christians left behind. But the March 1833 issue (p. 147) said that only "the Jews" would be excluded from the rapture.
So within a short period of time the Irvingites, while following the same Scriptures, revealed their innate anti-Jewishness by switching from a “church/church" dichotomy to a "church/Israel" dichotomy after convincing themselves that only "the Jews" would deserve a future tribulation! After their adoption of an escapist view that no organized church had ever taught before 1830, the same early pretrib rapturists, feeling superior, began exhibiting some vices that often come to powerless persons who suddenly obtain power - vices like pride, hatred and persecution of others, playing God, and so on.
Sounding like Hagee and other warlike warmongers, TMW expressed even more delusional, rapture-inspired fantasies:
The September 1830 issue (p. 514), looking ahead to the hoped for "great escape," declared that the raptured believers would then collectively become "the victorious ministerer of the great tribulation" upon those left behind!
In March of 1832 the same Irvingite journal (p. 3) taught that the "vials" of wrath in the book of Revelation "shall be poured out by the risen [raptured] saints"!
And TMW in September 1832 (p. 27) went even further and announced that the collective group of raptured ones will "wield the thunders of its power against the dragon [Satan] and his angels, and cast them down from heaven"!
Note that these fanatics were more than willing to be the "chosen ones" to pour out tribulation and wrath on those not worthy to be "chosen": the Jews.
etc etc etc
.................
so forgetting pretrib rapture which just doesn't work in any way shape or form, back to a future 1,000 year kingdom on this old earth with somebody ruling over somebody.
for a limited amount of time.
it's ridiculous and appears nowhere in scripture at all.
it's an incredible over-ride of the Jewish myth of a Future Thousand Year Messianic Age!
a preemption, if you will!
........
recommended pretrib rapture debunker and lay historian, whatever else your eschatological and theological views are:
Dave MacPherson:
Many are still unaware that the pretrib rapture idea was first publicly aired in the fall of 1830 in "The Morning Watch" (hereafter: TMW), a little-known quarterly journal published by the Irvingites (followers of famed London preacher Edward Irving) from 1829 to 1832 in Britain. Not only was this innovative publication years ahead of John Darby and his Plymouth Brethren colleagues, rapturally speaking, but in it we find shocking militancy that can be observed today in Christian Zionist preachers like John Hagee and Jerry Falwell. As early as the September 1830 issue of TMW (pp. 510-514) a writer declared that only worthy Christians (which he labeled "Philadelphia") would be raptured before "the great tribulation" and less worthy ones (labeled "Laodicea") would be left on earth. The September 1832 issue of the same journal (pp. 6-7) saw "Jews" as well as the less worthy Christians left behind. But the March 1833 issue (p. 147) said that only "the Jews" would be excluded from the rapture.
So within a short period of time the Irvingites, while following the same Scriptures, revealed their innate anti-Jewishness by switching from a “church/church" dichotomy to a "church/Israel" dichotomy after convincing themselves that only "the Jews" would deserve a future tribulation! After their adoption of an escapist view that no organized church had ever taught before 1830, the same early pretrib rapturists, feeling superior, began exhibiting some vices that often come to powerless persons who suddenly obtain power - vices like pride, hatred and persecution of others, playing God, and so on.
Sounding like Hagee and other warlike warmongers, TMW expressed even more delusional, rapture-inspired fantasies:
The September 1830 issue (p. 514), looking ahead to the hoped for "great escape," declared that the raptured believers would then collectively become "the victorious ministerer of the great tribulation" upon those left behind!
In March of 1832 the same Irvingite journal (p. 3) taught that the "vials" of wrath in the book of Revelation "shall be poured out by the risen [raptured] saints"!
And TMW in September 1832 (p. 27) went even further and announced that the collective group of raptured ones will "wield the thunders of its power against the dragon [Satan] and his angels, and cast them down from heaven"!
Note that these fanatics were more than willing to be the "chosen ones" to pour out tribulation and wrath on those not worthy to be "chosen": the Jews.
etc etc etc
.................
so forgetting pretrib rapture which just doesn't work in any way shape or form, back to a future 1,000 year kingdom on this old earth with somebody ruling over somebody.
for a limited amount of time.
final thought on the idea that The Church is raptured away and ppl run around and do things on earth for some unknown period of time GETTING SAVED!
1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
Paul, a Jew and Apostle (priest) said to Pastor Timothy:
you will know how people ought to conduct themselves
in God's household,
which is the church of the living God,
the pillar and foundation of the truth.
okay?
so until Jesus Returns and brings in the eternal state (New Jerusalem, no Temple, no crying, no death), the church of the living God is God's household and on earth is the pillar and foundation of the truth.
so how anyone could ever get saved or know any truth at all without the Church is beyond me.
notice the word pillar.
and foundation.
k....
1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
Paul, a Jew and Apostle (priest) said to Pastor Timothy:
you will know how people ought to conduct themselves
in God's household,
which is the church of the living God,
the pillar and foundation of the truth.
okay?
so until Jesus Returns and brings in the eternal state (New Jerusalem, no Temple, no crying, no death), the church of the living God is God's household and on earth is the pillar and foundation of the truth.
so how anyone could ever get saved or know any truth at all without the Church is beyond me.
notice the word pillar.
and foundation.
k....
L
where will the Body of Christ be while the Jews are in a Kingdom on earth?
do i misunderstand you?
and what will the Jews be doing?
will they be there alone?
no King?
who are they reigning over?
please explain it because so far no one, not one person has ever, not one time, at any time from any source in scripture, ever ever been able to document a parallel existence.
how does it work? where can i find it?
Zone,
I'm not an expert on the Bible, but I will try to explain what I believe the answers to your questions are from what I've gleaned from scripture.
1. Where will the Body of Christ be while the Jews are in a Kingdom on earth?
The body of Christ is made up of every single person who believes the Gospel without works since the work of the cross was complete. I think the body started about mid-Acts with Paul. The body of Christ will be raptured before the tribulation according to I Thess 4 and be caught up with the Lord in the air where we will forever be with the Lord. When the Lord made a covenant with Abraham, do you remember Him saying his dependants would be in number as the dust of the earth (earthly) (Gen. 13:16)? I believe this refers to the Earthly Kingdom. Then in Gen 15:5 the Lord tells Abraham his seed would be in number to the stars (heavenly). I believe this refers to the Heavenly Kingdom.
The Jews that had faith prior to the cross will be raised at the end of the tribulation and make up part of the earthly kingdom. There will also be 144,000 Jews saved during the Tribulation that will spread the gospel of faith plus works to the world. Everyone who believes during this period will make up the earthly kingdom.
2. And what will the Jews be doing? will they be there alone? no King?
The Jews will be under the Authority of Jesus Christ their King along with all others of faith that make up the Earthly Kingdom. Jesus Christ will physically be on the Throne of David. This doesn't mean that the Grace Age believers are without Christ in the Heavenly Kingdom as God is everywhere at all times. What the Jews will be doing specifically? I'm not sure, but I don't know specifically what I will be doing in heaven either. But I sure can't wait to find out!
3. Who are they reigning over?
I assume you mean the Jews here. There will be those people that protected Jews during the time of the tribulation that are not believers in Jesus Christ. I think this is where the sheep and the goats passages are explained. The goats are the ones that did harm to the Jews and are doomed to hell, where the sheep are allowed to be in the earthly kingdom under the reign of earthly kingdom.
As I stated, so much is so new to me. I'm not a theologian, but I love God's Word and read and study as much as I possibly can.
Did I understand you correctly when you stated that Dispensationalists do not care for the Jewish people? I guess I'm confused by that remark. I don't know what would cause a person to dislike Jews if they are dispensational???
I've told you a little about what I believe. How about you? Is it covenant theology you embrace or something different?
Sisters in the Lord, regardless
where will the Body of Christ be while the Jews are in a Kingdom on earth?
do i misunderstand you?
and what will the Jews be doing?
will they be there alone?
no King?
who are they reigning over?
please explain it because so far no one, not one person has ever, not one time, at any time from any source in scripture, ever ever been able to document a parallel existence.
how does it work? where can i find it?
do i misunderstand you?
and what will the Jews be doing?
will they be there alone?
no King?
who are they reigning over?
please explain it because so far no one, not one person has ever, not one time, at any time from any source in scripture, ever ever been able to document a parallel existence.
how does it work? where can i find it?
Zone,
I'm not an expert on the Bible, but I will try to explain what I believe the answers to your questions are from what I've gleaned from scripture.
1. Where will the Body of Christ be while the Jews are in a Kingdom on earth?
The body of Christ is made up of every single person who believes the Gospel without works since the work of the cross was complete. I think the body started about mid-Acts with Paul. The body of Christ will be raptured before the tribulation according to I Thess 4 and be caught up with the Lord in the air where we will forever be with the Lord. When the Lord made a covenant with Abraham, do you remember Him saying his dependants would be in number as the dust of the earth (earthly) (Gen. 13:16)? I believe this refers to the Earthly Kingdom. Then in Gen 15:5 the Lord tells Abraham his seed would be in number to the stars (heavenly). I believe this refers to the Heavenly Kingdom.
The Jews that had faith prior to the cross will be raised at the end of the tribulation and make up part of the earthly kingdom. There will also be 144,000 Jews saved during the Tribulation that will spread the gospel of faith plus works to the world. Everyone who believes during this period will make up the earthly kingdom.
2. And what will the Jews be doing? will they be there alone? no King?
The Jews will be under the Authority of Jesus Christ their King along with all others of faith that make up the Earthly Kingdom. Jesus Christ will physically be on the Throne of David. This doesn't mean that the Grace Age believers are without Christ in the Heavenly Kingdom as God is everywhere at all times. What the Jews will be doing specifically? I'm not sure, but I don't know specifically what I will be doing in heaven either. But I sure can't wait to find out!
3. Who are they reigning over?
I assume you mean the Jews here. There will be those people that protected Jews during the time of the tribulation that are not believers in Jesus Christ. I think this is where the sheep and the goats passages are explained. The goats are the ones that did harm to the Jews and are doomed to hell, where the sheep are allowed to be in the earthly kingdom under the reign of earthly kingdom.
As I stated, so much is so new to me. I'm not a theologian, but I love God's Word and read and study as much as I possibly can.
Did I understand you correctly when you stated that Dispensationalists do not care for the Jewish people? I guess I'm confused by that remark. I don't know what would cause a person to dislike Jews if they are dispensational???
I've told you a little about what I believe. How about you? Is it covenant theology you embrace or something different?
Sisters in the Lord, regardless
I'm not an expert on the Bible, but I will try to explain what I believe the answers to your questions are from what I've gleaned from scripture.
1. Where will the Body of Christ be while the Jews are in a Kingdom on earth?
The body of Christ is made up of every single person who believes the Gospel without works since the work of the cross was complete. I think the body started about mid-Acts with Paul. The body of Christ will be raptured before the tribulation according to I Thess 4 and be caught up with the Lord in the air where we will forever be with the Lord. When the Lord made a covenant with Abraham, do you remember Him saying his dependants would be in number as the dust of the earth (earthly) (Gen. 13:16)? I believe this refers to the Earthly Kingdom. Then in Gen 15:5 the Lord tells Abraham his seed would be in number to the stars (heavenly). I believe this refers to the Heavenly Kingdom.
The Jews that had faith prior to the cross will be raised at the end of the tribulation and make up part of the earthly kingdom. There will also be 144,000 Jews saved during the Tribulation that will spread the gospel of faith plus works to the world. Everyone who believes during this period will make up the earthly kingdom.
2. And what will the Jews be doing? will they be there alone? no King?
The Jews will be under the Authority of Jesus Christ their King along with all others of faith that make up the Earthly Kingdom. Jesus Christ will physically be on the Throne of David. This doesn't mean that the Grace Age believers are without Christ in the Heavenly Kingdom as God is everywhere at all times. What the Jews will be doing specifically? I'm not sure, but I don't know specifically what I will be doing in heaven either. But I sure can't wait to find out!
3. Who are they reigning over?
I assume you mean the Jews here. There will be those people that protected Jews during the time of the tribulation that are not believers in Jesus Christ. I think this is where the sheep and the goats passages are explained. The goats are the ones that did harm to the Jews and are doomed to hell, where the sheep are allowed to be in the earthly kingdom under the reign of earthly kingdom.
As I stated, so much is so new to me. I'm not a theologian, but I love God's Word and read and study as much as I possibly can.
Did I understand you correctly when you stated that Dispensationalists do not care for the Jewish people? I guess I'm confused by that remark. I don't know what would cause a person to dislike Jews if they are dispensational???
I've told you a little about what I believe. How about you? Is it covenant theology you embrace or something different?
Sisters in the Lord, regardless
i'll come back to this in a few hours if the Lord is willing.
many of the points have already been addressed (by me) in this thread recently.
it would be great if you could read through them as it will save me reposting to explain what i believe
.most easily described as Amillennialism.
so far not too bad...only about 80 posts...at least skim them if you would.
thanks again
zone.
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L
Zone,
I've skimmed through this and will obviously need more time. You have a lot to say!
Two years ago I could not have told anyone much of anything about what I believed. I might have said something like "if you ask Jesus in your heart" or "surrender to God". So, I have to say in scanning these posts I am very encouraged and can see my faith has grown in leaps and bounds
I didn't understand much of what you are saying...either over my head or just too many references to books, people, preachers, and teachers that I know nothing about.
You said I was ultra-dispensational...not sure the definition of this, but I can tell you I'm ultra-excited in who I am in Christ!
I'll keep following here and try to understand the different positions that seem to make us all different.
I've skimmed through this and will obviously need more time. You have a lot to say!
Two years ago I could not have told anyone much of anything about what I believed. I might have said something like "if you ask Jesus in your heart" or "surrender to God". So, I have to say in scanning these posts I am very encouraged and can see my faith has grown in leaps and bounds
I didn't understand much of what you are saying...either over my head or just too many references to books, people, preachers, and teachers that I know nothing about.
You said I was ultra-dispensational...not sure the definition of this, but I can tell you I'm ultra-excited in who I am in Christ!
I'll keep following here and try to understand the different positions that seem to make us all different.
A
The new premil version
of kjv in para
NPV
1 cor 15:[SUP]20 [/SUP]But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.[SUP]21 [/SUP]For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christs at His Coming. [SUP]2[/SUP],Then comes the end (not really,theres two ends) when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father (not really, we are gona go to earth first), when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and powe(not really ALL. Paul is such a exagerater, gog and magog and alot of enemies and unbelievers will still not be under His feet before Christ comes) . [SUP]25 [/SUP]For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.(nope Paul is wrong again, he didnt read the paperbacks, much death will go on in the future kingdom)[SUP]27 [/SUP]For “He has put all things under His feet.”[SUP][a][/SUP] But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.(so if the calvinists can play with the word all then why cant the premillers?)
of kjv in para
NPV
1 cor 15:[SUP]20 [/SUP]But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.[SUP]21 [/SUP]For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christs at His Coming. [SUP]2[/SUP],Then comes the end (not really,theres two ends) when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father (not really, we are gona go to earth first), when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and powe(not really ALL. Paul is such a exagerater, gog and magog and alot of enemies and unbelievers will still not be under His feet before Christ comes) . [SUP]25 [/SUP]For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.(nope Paul is wrong again, he didnt read the paperbacks, much death will go on in the future kingdom)[SUP]27 [/SUP]For “He has put all things under His feet.”[SUP][a][/SUP] But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
(so if the calvinists can play with the word all then why cant the premillers?)
A
If 1 cor 15 is true. Jesus comes back after all enemies including death is all over.
Then He takes us up to God the Father. No pit stops can possibly happen. That include
enemies or death or sin.
[SUP]50 [/SUP]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. [SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—[SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [SUP]53 [/SUP]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. [SUP]54 [/SUP]So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[SUP][g][/SUP]
[SUP]55 [/SUP]“O Death, where is your sting?[SUP][h][/SUP]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[SUP][i][/SUP]
[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. [SUP]57 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]58 [/SUP]Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
So unless i see a revision of the story a 1000 yr kingdom cant quite fit.
Ya i know this is a rerun of what zone just said. but worth pointing out lots of times
Then He takes us up to God the Father. No pit stops can possibly happen. That include
enemies or death or sin.
[SUP]50 [/SUP]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. [SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—[SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [SUP]53 [/SUP]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. [SUP]54 [/SUP]So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[SUP][g][/SUP]
[SUP]55 [/SUP]“O Death, where is your sting?[SUP][h][/SUP]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[SUP][i][/SUP]
[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. [SUP]57 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]58 [/SUP]Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
So unless i see a revision of the story a 1000 yr kingdom cant quite fit.
Ya i know this is a rerun of what zone just said. but worth pointing out lots of times
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