Pre-Trib Objections

[greenonions]

The confusions about the differences between the trumpets blown by the seven angels and the "last trump" signifying the difference between the raising of the dead in Christ and the living, the only way those who latch onto their confusions over that will be when they dare read it all in context and study the differences between a trump and the trumpets of the seven angels. The jagged edges of those two entirely different phenomenon simply do not fit together as the same event and element descriptors.

MM

I don't think Jesus will come back at the same moment that the seventh trumpet is blown, but in the "days" of the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 10:7), God's mystery would be finished.

 

[greenonions]

The wheat does not represent Israel at all? How anyone can say that about the very people Jesus said He was sent to, the only people, that he was sent to, that is a remarkable thing to see some posit as an abject contradiction to the texts...

Replacement theology garbage continues to manifest itself all throughout these threads, and at minimum, shards of it are put to use to try and force Gentiles into the place of Israel in subtle and not so subtle means and nuances.

MM

The wheat represents all believers, including Jews and Gentiles. So yes, it includes the remnant of Israel who believe in Jesus.

 

[greenonions]

-------------------------------------
The Sheep are not saved by faith, they are saved by works!

I don't think that's possible. No one can be justified by the works of the law (Galatians 2:16). Maybe not works of the law but saved by other works? Ephesians 2:8-9 NKJV says "not of works, lest anyone should boast". It is all grace. Though I agree that true faith will result in works. There is only one way to salvation, which is through faith in Jesus Christ (John 3:16; 14:6; Acts 4:12).

 

[greenonions]

Those dudes aren’t populating ANYTHING but Hell.
Matthew 25

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand,‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

My understanding is that there are survivors from the nations in Zechariah 14:16 who do not participate in the sheep and goats judgment. I think the nations that are gathered together for the sheep and goats judgment are the nations that gathered for the battle of Armaggeddon. That "gathering" is mentioned several times in the Bible (Joel 3:11; Zechariah 14:2; Revelation 14:19; 16:16; 19:19). The beast that is captured is the army that will be judged and cast alive into the lake of fire (19:20). The sheep may include the people on white horses (Rev. 19:14).

 

[greenonions]

Post-tribbers don't seem to have picked up in the fact that if the acquisition of all the faithful receiving their glorified bodies immediately before the Millennial Kingdom, both dead and alive, there would no nobody left to have babies in the Millennium, and to grow the nations in population, for we are told that we will be as the angels of Heaven, neither marrying nor given in marriage, and without marriage, there won't be children with Christ on the throne of David.

It's also utterly irrational and anti-biblical to claim that the Lord will put His own body through the torture of His own wrath. His body has already gone through the torture of having taken upon Himself the penalty for our sins, and then to go through that again after He said, "It is FINISHED!"

What part do those people not understand about what He said? The wrath begins at the opening of the very first seal. For those few to claim that the four horsemen are not His wrath, when a fourth of the world's population will be wiped out at their release...it's not business as usual when an entire fourth of the world's population is wiped out under the hooves of just those four horsemen. Good grief, how dense does a thought process have to be to not see such an obvious reality?

8 Billion X 0.25 = 2 Billion (meaning that 2 Billion have perished)

6 Billion X 0.333333 = 2 Billion

See that? Just as many will die in the second half, the GREAT tribulation as will die in the first half, and the first half isn't a measure of His wrath? I would have to crawl up out from under a very large, dark rock to not see the obvious in all that.

4 Billion is one-half of 8 Billion...right?

Hope this math lesson opens some eyes and peels away the scales of falsehoods in the eschatology some of you have been taught by your false teaching pastors and teachers and favorite authors.

This also applies to the mid and pre-wrath gangs. The math opposes your falsehoods.

MM

Rev. 6:8 says Death had the power over a fourth of the earth to kill. I think Death is representing a person, and is not literally death. Today, death has power over 100% of the earth, not just 25%. This person will have authority over a fourth of the earth and will kill many people. This does not mean he will kill everyone under his authority.

 

[Omegatime]

I don't think that's possible. No one can be justified by the works of the law (Galatians 2:16). Maybe not works of the law but saved by other works? Ephesians 2:8-9 NKJV says "not of works, lest anyone should boast". It is all grace. Though I agree that true faith will result in works. There is only one way to salvation, which is through faith in Jesus Christ (John 3:16; 14:6; Acts 4:12).

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Have you considered the Millenium started before the end of the Tribulation like at Rev 14:4, so that anyone who enter the vial/bowl judgments are unrighteous.

 

[greenonions]

---------------------------------------
Have you considered the Millenium started before the end of the Tribulation like at Rev 14:4, so that anyone who enter the vial/bowl judgments are unrighteous.

The millennium is in Revelation 20:4, after the bowls. I don't think Revelation 14:4 is the beginning of the millennium, though I haven't really considered it.

 

[GaryA]

Revelation 14:

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

This verse represents - is a picture of - is an illustration of - Jesus "appearing" at the Second Coming of Christ - right before the resurrection-and-rapture occurs - and following that, the 'Wrath of God' is "poured out" upon the earth.

And - "technically" - it is the beginning of the millennium. (the moment Jesus appears)

 

[bluejean_bible]

I think you need to spend a lot more time on the subject ----just saying ------I have also studied this fior years and your scam idea is nonsense ------

https://bereanbiblesociety.org/evidence-for-the-pre-tribulation-rapture/
Evidence for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture
by Pastor Ken Lawson

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The appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ for His own Church is one of the most attested to revelations in all of Paul’s writings. Paul intended for this to be a purifying expectation and a comfort to those who are suffering. However, in recent years this blessed hope has been attacked from all sides as either a misunderstanding emanating from the dispensationalists or as a misguided illusion that has gained an audience among those who refuse to consider church history and tradition.
It has been well said that the pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church to heaven was the last truth recovered from the Bible by teachers who championed dispensational truth, and now, after a period of popularity, it is becoming the first recovered truth that is losing support among believers. Whether it is currently popular or supported by church history is immaterial in the end. The issue is this: Is it correct according to the Scriptures rightly divided? In Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church this short article we will review in a concise form some of the most convincing Scriptural reasons why we believe that the Rapture of the Church will happen before the coming Tribulation.

The Rapture of the Church is a Distinctive Pauline Truth
We do not read of the Rapture of the Church outside of Paul’s epistles. Paul taught by revelation that the Church, the Body of Christ, is a mystery (or secret) unknown to men of previous ages (Eph. 3:1-6; Col. 1:25-27). The Rapture is the blessed hope of this Church and the final act of God for our dispensation. Therefore, it cannot be a part of Israel’s program of prophecy outlined by the Old Testament prophets. Since those prophets foretold of the Tribulation (Dan. 12:1; Matt. 24:21), the Body of Christ cannot be there without violating its distinctive character as a new creation separate and distinct from Israel (Eph. 2:14-17). Anyone who puts the Church through any part of the Tribulation must deal with the incongruity of a secret church participating in a prophesied era. Some pre-tribulationists have unwittingly weakened their position by claiming the Rapture was revealed by Christ in the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24-25), which is most assuredly an integral part of Israel’s prophetic program. MidActs dispensationalism greatly strengthens the pre-Tribulation position. Where you begin the Church determines where you end it! It began with God’s revelation to Paul after Israel’s fall in unbelief and will end before God resumes His dealings with them as a nation.
Paul tells us that the Church has been delivered from the wrath to come (1 Thes. 1:10; 5:9; Rom. 5:9). The wrath of God covers the beginning, middle, and end of the Tribulation, as well as the Second Coming of Christ (Rev. 1:10; 6:16-17; 19:11-21; 2 Thes. 1:7-10; Isa. 63:1-6).
The dispensation of grace ends before the Tribulation begins. It is impossible to execute a program of grace and a program of judgment at the same time. They are mutually exclusive.

• There are different gospels proclaimed. Grace (Acts 20:24; Rom. 3:24) and Kingdom (Matt. 24:14). If the Church were in the Tribulation, we could not obey Paul’s command to fight against evil principalities and powers in heavenly places since they will have been cast down to earth (Rev. 12:7-9; Eph.6:12).
• There are different programs involved. Under grace, God is working a program of reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:18-21). He is withholding judgment to administer His grace (Rom. 5:20-21). Compare Psalm 2 with Acts 7.

Daniel’s Seventieth Week Pertains to Israel, Not the Body of Christ

“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.​

“Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.​

“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.​

“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate” (Dan. 9:24-27).​

“Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it” (Jer. 30:7).​

This should be a weighty argument for dispensationalists who make a stark distinction between Israel and the Church. The great object of Satanic attack during the last half of the Tribulation is the remnant of Israel, not the Body of Christ (Rev. 12:9-12). The two witnesses and the 144,000 will be the chief actors for God during this time. These are all Jewish (Rev. 7:1-8; 11:3-12).
Finally, it is the remnant of Israel who will be waiting for Christ’s return after the Tribulation, not the Church (Mal. 3:16-18; Ezek. 20:33-38; 37:11-28; Zech. 13:8-9; 12:10-14). The Gentiles who are saved during the Tribulation come to a knowledge of Christ through Israel’s testimony, not the Body of Christ.

​

I agree.

"Behold, the Day of the LORD is coming—cruel, with fury and burning anger—to make the earth a desolation and to destroy the sinners within it." Isaiah 13:9

After the deluge as reported in Genesis God promised he would never punish the world again with water. Next time he would send fire.

Making earth desolate and destroying sinners on the day of God's wrath. While in Revelation we are told during that time people can be saved.
However, I think God is destroying sinners per the Isaiah prophecy because his saints are already ascended,raptured.

The Saints,those called by God to his salvation, would not deserve to face the day of wrath given why it occurs,according to God's word.

 

[Psalm1]

I disagree with you onthe basis of a number of reasons and this being one:

The angel told the disciples watching Jesus disappear that He would return in like manner for us. While ascending, He was not on a white horse while brandishing a sword and destroying Israel's enemies as He will do at His Second coming. The striking differences are just too overwhelming to try and jam them together into the second coming. Nowhere did the Lord indicate that He would come to get us, then do an about-face in the clouds to return to earth's surface a second time immediately thereafter.

MM

Yes "like manner " destroys all but a pretrib scenario.

It is comical watching postribs explain away " like manner", "before the flood ",and mat 25 as well as Rev 14.

Those verses are not going away

 

[Musicmaster]

Rev. 6:8 says Death had the power over a fourth of the earth to kill. I think Death is representing a person, and is not literally death. Today, death has power over 100% of the earth, not just 25%. This person will have authority over a fourth of the earth and will kill many people. This does not mean he will kill everyone under his authority.

The context shows to us that 1 fourth was killed, with another third wiped out in chapter 9, which overall is one half of the entire earth's population just in the first half of the seven years tribulation.

Now, considering that, we can then surmise that fewer people will die in the great tribulation of the second half of the seven years than what will have died in the first half, and there are those out there who love to parrot their claim that the first half isn't the wrath of God being poured out. They really need to go back and rethink their claim.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Revelation 14:

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

This verse represents - is a picture of - is an illustration of - Jesus "appearing" at the Second Coming of Christ - right before the resurrection-and-rapture occurs - and following that, the 'Wrath of God' is "poured out" upon the earth.

And - "technically" - it is the beginning of the millennium. (the moment Jesus appears)

The first resurrection is not the rapture of the body of Christ. We are already gone seven years before that.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Yet - these very words unmistakably show that you have confused the 'physical' with the 'spiritual'.

So, what are you saying, if I may ask? What precisely is your position in relation to understanding what the tribulation actually entails? The body of Christ is not going to be left on this earth, and the tribulation will be a physical torture upon those left on this earth and it will be a spiritual torture in the manner of speaking you seem to be saying. Yes. With that I will agree.

The Lord was also laughed at, insulted, ridiculed, humiliated, beaten, and spat upon.

Has anyone who is a member of the body of Christ today experienced any of these things?

Not to the extent of the wrath the Lord is going to bring upon this earth and all its inhabitants in the tribulational seven years. No. There's a vast difference between persecution and the wrath of the Lord. There will be a period in that tribulation when men will not even be able to die when they wanted death. Perhaps that helps to explain why fewer people will die in the horrors of the second half than what will die in the first half.

That's right folks. Half the world's population will be dead after the four horsemen and after the trumpets in chapter nine of Revelation, which is before the start of the second half when the man of sin sits in the holy place as god and requires the taking of his mark. The deaths in the second half, during the worst of God's wrath upon this earth, the number if FAR fewer than the first half. Kind of hard to believe, isn't it? The seeming counter-intuitiveness of that will drive many a follower of the false teachings about the tribulation into a frenzy in trying to explain it all away into the oblivions of their falsehoods they embrace with such tenacity.

Many Christians are beheaded or tortured and killed in various ways today because of their faith.

Not to the extent of what's coming. So, what's your point?

Did the Lord allow the physical torture of many of His body for hundreds of years during the Dark Ages?

Not to the extent of what's coming in the tribulation. So, what's your point, because the Lord Himself said that this earth has never seen what will come upon this earth in the tribulation. That alone renders moot your questions about persecutions and deaths not at all driven by the wrath of God poured out upon this earth. Why are you so confused about the differences? The word of God is very clear on this. What version of the Bible are you reading? What can possibly mislead you like this? Is it your pastor? Is she fairly liberal?

I'm just trying to nail down the basis behind your doubts about what scripture actually states to us.

Was it the wrath of God? Or, can you bring yourself to believe that the devil could possibly also have wrath?

Is that something you really can't see the discontinuities? What part of this eludes you:

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

That means that even the flood itself will not be an equal to what is coming in the tribulation. So, what part of all this are you not getting? Are simply not wanting to believe there is such a time coming upon this earth? I mean, what is it?

You need to stop focusing so highly on the bark of one tree and back up so that you can see the whole forest.

Dispensing with the cliché festival, let's keep our feet grounded in the scriptures...

Just exactly where do you draw the line for a "special" group of Christians who you imagine should/will not experience 'tribulation'?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Now, granted, the more ignorant out there will say, "The word 'rapture' isn't in that verse."

The sheer ignorance of some is indeed astounding. The Greek word harpadzo has a precise meaning that even the Latin Vulgate translator picked up on for him to use the Latin word Rapturos. So, yes rapture is indeed right there, only stated with a synonym.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

"Trump" and "trumpet" are not the same thing because they are not from the same Greek word, contrary to the beliefs of some. A trump is the sound that a trumpet makes in the ancient vernaculars. What Paul described is not at all the same event as that which is blown by the seven angels who blow their trumpets only once each. The one blown at the rapture is blown twice, with no mention of the angel whatsoever.

I do not know of anyone who "wants" to "remain" for a 'tribulation' period.

Some harbor such a strong belief along the line of being here that one is left wondering if they indeed WANT to remain here as the means for testing their metal. That they want to drag all others down with them to be here during that time, that sickness of spirit does indeed justify the questioning of their spiritual well-being.

You should be careful to not make false-accusations against others simply because they see something differently.

Well, you can rest assured that all failure to read scripture for what it says speaks loud volumes to a deeper problem, because when they are led point blank to the very contexts that address directly these issues, and they prefer the irrational claims of other nay-sayers in the place of what scripture declares, we're left with little else than to call a spade a spade.

If the 'pre-trib' view were true - and, [even if] someone were to actually "want to remain" for a coming tribulation period - they would still be raptured with the rest...

That's something only the Lord can sort out.

MM

Anyone who thinks otherwise does not understand God, His ways, or/and His Word. Instead, they are thinking with the 'wisdom' of men.[/QUOTE]

 

[GaryA]

What precisely is your position in relation to understanding what the tribulation actually entails?

To be clear...

I very confidently believe and put forth the following statements - based on much Bible study over years-and-decades:

There is no "first half" or "second/last half" of a 7-year tribulation period.

There is not [even] a 7-year 'prophetic' End Times ['tribulation'] period [at all].

There is a 3-1/2 year 'prophetic' End Times period - we identify it as the Two Witnesses.

The occurrences associated with the 'Seals' have been coming into existence during the past ~2000 years.

The 'Trumpet' events are yet future and will occur over an approximate 3-1/2 year span of time.

The Two Witnesses cause the 'Trumpet' events by/with their prophecy/testimony.

The 'Wrath of God' is clearly defined/described in the Bible to be the 'Vials' - no more and no less - but, exactly-and-precisely that.

In the context of Bible prophecy, neither the 'Seals' nor the 'Trumpets' are considered in any way to be part of the 'Wrath of God'.

The 'Seals' and the 'Trumpets' occur before the Second Coming of Christ (when Christ "appears"); the 'Wrath of God' occurs after it.

There is only one Second Coming of Christ; there is not a 'Third Coming of Christ'. And, "appearing in the air" constitutes a 'coming'.

The 'great tribulation' - as defined/described/identified in Matthew 24:21 - is about persecution of Saints and not the 'Wrath of God'.

The Bible does in fact show/tell us exactly when it begins (relative to other events) and exactly when it ends (relative to other events).

It began in 70 A.D. and will end at some point in time in our future. We are in it now. The worst is yet to come.

A 'pre-trib' rapture (or anything else) is impossible. Why? Because - the 'great tribulation' has already started.

Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy is 100% fulfilled and has nothing whatsoever to do with the End Times Scenario.

Some study 'details':

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Second_Coming.html
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Time_Line.html
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

I'm just trying to nail down the basis behind your doubts about what scripture actually states to us.

I have no doubts whatsoever concerning any of the statements in the list above. They truly reflect what I believe the Bible really actually says.

The word of God is very clear on this.

Yes, it is; however, it is very sad and unfortunate that most people misinterpret it severely.

What version of the Bible are you reading?

KJV

There's a vast difference between persecution and the wrath of the Lord.

Yep - and, persecution is directed at/toward Saints while the wrath of the Lord is directed at/toward the evil in/of the world.

Also - the wrath of the Lord only occurs when the Lord is physically present - after His appearing at the Second Coming of Christ.

Not to the extent of what's coming.

Waaaaay too many people are so hung up on the idea that "what is coming" will be so much more terrible than anything that has happened so far in history that they "miss" the painfully obvious...

Yes - the future holds much worse things than in the past - the worst is yet to come; however, that does not mean that they are not all part of the same thing.

The horrific persecution of Saints during the Dark Ages is part of the very same 'great tribulation' (Matthew 24:21) that includes the future beheading of Saints for not worshipping the beast.

The souls "under the altar" (Revelation 6:9) and those "that should be killed as they were" (Revelation 6:11) are all 'tribulation Saints' - during the very same 'great tribulation' defined/described in Matthew 24:21.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

"Trump" and "trumpet" are not the same thing because they are not from the same Greek word, contrary to the beliefs of some. A trump is the sound that a trumpet makes in the ancient vernaculars. What Paul described is not at all the same event as that which is blown by the seven angels who blow their trumpets only once each. The one blown at the rapture is blown twice, with no mention of the angel whatsoever.

Where do you get the "blown twice" idea from? There is only one in the verse you quoted.

Some harbor such a strong belief along the line of being here that one is left wondering if they indeed WANT to remain here as the means for testing their metal. That they want to drag all others down with them to be here during that time, that sickness of spirit does indeed justify the questioning of their spiritual well-being.

Oooooorrr - what you say here is 'baloney' - and, they are simply honest enough to want to tell the truth about what scripture really actually says...

The "spiritual well-being" of those who face the truth of scripture concerning the End Times Scenario with honesty is far above those who cannot bear to deal with it mentally, emotionally, and spiritually.

Well, you can rest assured that all failure to read scripture for what it says speaks loud volumes to a deeper problem, because when they are led point blank to the very contexts that address directly these issues, and they prefer the irrational claims of other nay-sayers in the place of what scripture declares, we're left with little else than to call a spade a spade.

Yep - and, the 'pre-trib' view most certainly demonstrates a very deep problem indeed! It is very irrational to believe such a thing when the Bible does not support it any at all whatsoever...

That's something only the Lord can sort out.

Nope - a proper interpretation of scripture along with a proper understanding of such things as the character of God can/will do that.

 

[greenonions]

Revelation 14:

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

This verse represents - is a picture of - is an illustration of - Jesus "appearing" at the Second Coming of Christ - right before the resurrection-and-rapture occurs - and following that, the 'Wrath of God' is "poured out" upon the earth.

And - "technically" - it is the beginning of the millennium. (the moment Jesus appears)

Well, yes, I understand Rev 14:14 as the Second Coming of Christ. Omegatime and I were talking about Rev. 14:4, which is the 144,000. I suspect the singing of the 144,000 is a different time than the Second Coming of Christ, hence not certain that is the beginning of the millennium.

You think the bowls of wrath in Rev. 16 are all after Rev. 14:14. I disagree. The second coming happens after the 6th bowl when Jesus says He is coming like a thief (Rev. 16:15). Similarly, the gathering of the grapes of wrath in Rev. 14:17-20 actually happens at the 6th bowl when the armies are gathered to Armaggedon (Rev. 16:16). So Chapter 14 is not all chronologically before Chapter 16. I understand that you think the wrath of God is the bowls. The bowls are "thumos" wrath, while there is also the "orge" wrath of God in Revelation 14:10-11, which is torment in fire and brimstone forever and ever.

 

[GaryA]

Well, yes, I understand Rev 14:14 as the Second Coming of Christ. Omegatime and I were talking about Rev. 14:4, which is the 144,000. I suspect the singing of the 144,000 is a different time than the Second Coming of Christ, hence not certain that is the beginning of the millennium.

You think the bowls of wrath in Rev. 16 are all after Rev. 14:14. I disagree. The second coming happens after the 6th bowl when Jesus says He is coming like a thief (Rev. 16:15). Similarly, the gathering of the grapes of wrath in Rev. 14:17-20 actually happens at the 6th bowl when the armies are gathered to Armaggedon (Rev. 16:16). So Chapter 14 is not all chronologically before Chapter 16. I understand that you think the wrath of God is the bowls. The bowls are "thumos" wrath, while there is also the "orge" wrath of God in Revelation 14:10-11, which is torment in fire and brimstone forever and ever.

Revelation 14:

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. { Second Coming of Christ (His "appearing") } 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. { RAPTURE } 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. { 'Wrath of God' } 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

FIRST - Jesus "appears" (1st)
THEN - RAPTURE (2nd)
THEN - 'Wrath of God' (3rd)

Revelation 14:17-20 occurs after Revelation 14:15-16 - which occurs after Revelation 14:14.

No part of the 'Wrath of God' can occur before the rapture. The rapture cannot occur before Jesus appears.

Please see: http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html

Notice what verses are aligned with the chapter 14 verses.

Notice how this verse is aligned:

Revelation 19:

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

This verse tells us that it is Jesus Himself who "dishes out" the 'Wrath of God' upon the world. See how it aligns with verses in other chapters.

I can agree that everything in chapter 14 is not all chronologically before chapter 16.

I suggest that Revelation 14:10-11 is talking about both 'Wrath of God' (10a) and 'Lake of Fire' (10b,11).