Pre-Trib Rapture and Premillennialism are False Doctrines

[Nehemiah6]

I am not sure if you read all of my last post to you. I explained my opinion on what I think the Mark of the beast is. It doesn't have to do with real money.

I don't believe the Mark is physical. It is spiritual. No computer chips and silly things like that.

It is a good thing that these are just opinions (with no basis in fact). Opinions are a dime a dozen. We are to take Scripture in ITS PLAIN LITERAL SENSE unless there is good reason not to.

It is obvious that the term "Beast" is a metaphor for the Antichrist. But everything else is factual, and so it has been accepted by Christians for a very long time. The money is actual money, the mark is an actual mark, and the beheadings are actual beheadings.

 

[delirious]

Yes I read it and it pretty much is the same as I was taught from birth till about 18 years old.

Revelation 13 is highly symbolic imagery. Let me give you my opinion on what Rev 13 is saying so take it with a grain of salt:

Rev 13: 1-2, "Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority."

Notice the description of the beast. Lion, leopard, bear, 10 horns. Same description in Daniel 7: 1-7 for Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.

The beast is representative of all world kingdoms/governments that oppose God and set up man's authority. Satan owns all these kingdoms and gives his "power and authority" to them. Remember when Satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in the wilderness temptation for 40 days? What did he say to Jesus? They all belong to Him and He would give them to Jesus if He would bow down and worship him.

The rest of the chapter is describing how Christians have been martyred for 2,000 years because they don't worship the beast. They follow Jesus. The people who do worship the beast are unbelievers and love the world and what it has to offer.

In Revelation 13:15 those who dont worship the image are killed. Now if they are killed it is phyisical because if they do take it then they will be killed(Revelation 19:20-21) and if they don't the beast will kill them.

I don't know why the "killing" in Rev 13: 15 has to be physical in a highly symbolic chapter. The rest of the chapter uses non-literal, highly symbolic images to convey spiritual truths.

And all of this before the millennial because the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire prior to the milleniel (notice they are already there in Revelation 20:10)...I say this because you see us IN the millennial but you also see the beast and false prophet here instead of in the lake of fire prior to the mill.

You are assuming that Revelation 20 follows Revelation 19 chronologically. In my opinion, it does not. The sixth seal, seventh trumpet, and seventh bowl are all the same event.

We have examples all through Revelation of the book going forward in time from Christ's first coming to His second coming. When you get through the "seals", it goes back to the beginning and covers them in the "trumpets" and then again in the "bowls. All the same events.

You also have the end of Rev 11 which is the return of Christ and then the very next verse in Rev 12 it goes back to His birth. So multiple times the book of Revelation moves from first coming to second coming over and over again.

So why not Rev 19 which is also the return of Christ and then Rev 20 goes back to the first coming. I believe this is exactly what happens.

When John says in Rev 20: 10 "the beast and false prophet are" The word "are" is not in the Greek. The dragon, the beast and the false prophet are all thrown in at the same time along with all unbelievers. Rev 20 is moving from first coming to second coming like we have seen several times before already in Revelation.

This is just the amillennial view. I know premills think otherwise. Fair enough.

 

[iamsoandso]

Revelation 13 is highly symbolic imagery. Let me give you my opinion on what Rev 13 is saying so take it with a grain of salt:

Rev 13: 1-2, "Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority."

Notice the description of the beast. Lion, leopard, bear, 10 horns. Same description in Daniel 7: 1-7 for Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.

The beast is representative of all world kingdoms/governments that oppose God and set up man's authority. Satan owns all these kingdoms and gives his "power and authority" to them. Remember when Satan showed Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in the wilderness temptation for 40 days? What did he say to Jesus? They all belong to Him and He would give them to Jesus if He would bow down and worship him.

The rest of the chapter is describing how Christians have been martyred for 2,000 years because they don't worship the beast. They follow Jesus. The people who do worship the beast are unbelievers and love the world and what it has to offer.



I don't know why the "killing" in Rev 13: 15 has to be physical in a highly symbolic chapter. The rest of the chapter uses non-literal, highly symbolic images to convey spiritual truths.



You are assuming that Revelation 20 follows Revelation 19 chronologically. In my opinion, it does not. The sixth seal, seventh trumpet, and seventh bowl are all the same event.

We have examples all through Revelation of the book going forward in time from Christ's first coming to His second coming. When you get through the "seals", it goes back to the beginning and covers them in the "trumpets" and then again in the "bowls. All the same events.

You also have the end of Rev 11 which is the return of Christ and then the very next verse in Rev 12 it goes back to His birth. So multiple times the book of Revelation moves from first coming to second coming over and over again.

So why not Rev 19 which is also the return of Christ and then Rev 20 goes back to the first coming. I believe this is exactly what happens.

When John says in Rev 20: 10 "the beast and false prophet are" The word "are" is not in the Greek. The dragon, the beast and the false prophet are all thrown in at the same time along with all unbelievers. Rev 20 is moving from first coming to second coming like we have seen several times before already in Revelation.

This is just the amillennial view. I know premills think otherwise. Fair enough.

lol, that's the thing about it delirious the beast your naming(Daniel) are included in the 70 weeks you carried on about so why aren't they fulfilled?

 

[delirious]

We are to take Scripture in ITS PLAIN LITERAL SENSE unless there is good reason not to.

That is a dispensational teaching and you did not get that from the Bible. It sounds good on the surface but when you apply it to prophetic passages it is erroneous. They are not to always be taken literally. Sometimes they are, sometimes they are not. Depends on the context.

If you are reading 1 and 2 Kings that literary genre is historical narrative. It is obvious we take it mostly literally. It is describing what happened in Israel in a point in time.

You don't do this with apocalyptic/prophetic narrative. It is a mistake the dispensationalist makes. When you read your newspaper you read it in a "normal" way. Do you do the same when you read poem? No. It is symbolic imagery and you don't take it too literally. You are looking for the meaning in the poem. Prophetic books are the same way in the Bible. Much of them are poetry like the Psalms.

It is obvious that the term "Beast" is a metaphor for the Antichrist.

I just put forth what I believe is a good argument in post #502 that the "beast" is not the antichrist but world governments throughout history.

The money is actual money, the mark is an actual mark, and the beheadings are actual beheadings.

For the sake of argument, let's use your "plain literal sense" dispensational hermeneutic and apply it to the "beheadings" you mentioned.

You are referencing Revelation 20: 4 where it says those "who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

So if you are to remain consistent with your hermeneutic then you have very few apostles being raised to reign during the 1,000 year millennium. The apostle John, Peter and many other apostles were not "beheaded". You also believe the "mark" is a future thing and they didn't take that either. Verse 5 says the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were over. So if you don't fit in the category of Rev 20: 4 you don't get resurrected. That means the apostle John and Peter and many others miss out.

The dispensational hermeneutic proves itself false.

 

[TabinRivCA]

I have thought about that too. Thats probably the best argument for taking the mark symbolically. Because the antichrist could just go around chipping people and BAM everyone is damned.

But I believe it can still be a literal mark, but that it would be like a credit card today. Nobody is FORCING you physically to get a credit card, or an ATM Card, but good luck buying stuff without it!
It says CAUSETH all, not FORCETH all!

Btw have you noticed the KJV says "IN" the right hand or forehead. The new versions say "ON"?

Someone suggested the 'mark/implant' is actually a chip with which the anti-Christ will promise an upgrade to our DNA. Like living for 200 yrs, no illness, 'smarter etc which many will find alluring. Just a thought since the orig Hebrew describes him as being altered in some way.

 

[delirious]

lol, that's the thing about it delirious the beast your naming(Daniel) are included in the 70 weeks you carried on about so why aren't they fulfilled?

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are trying to say. Daniel 9: 24 talks about 6 things that are fulfilled during the 70 weeks. Christ fulfilled those 6 things at the cross which happened during the 70th week. The beast and all of that comes after during the first and second comings of Christ. The 70 weeks were for the Jewish people and then the kingdom was taken from them and we are not in the "time of the Gentiles" until Christ's return.

The beast is representative of all ungodly governments/kingdoms that have been going on for 2,000 years and counting. It doesn't just apply to those four kingdoms. Maybe you see it differently. Fair enough.

 

[Locutus]

Lot's of crickets but only locust in here

 

[Hevosmies]

The rest of the chapter is describing how Christians have been martyred for 2,000 years because they don't worship the beast. They follow Jesus. The people who do worship the beast are unbelievers and love the world and what it has to offer.



I don't know why the "killing" in Rev 13: 15 has to be physical in a highly symbolic chapter. The rest of the chapter uses non-literal, highly symbolic images to convey spiritual truths.

Everyone seems to have this problem when making this chapter speak of two millennium instead of a future time period:

They say the mark just means worshiping false gods, beast system, unbelievers who love the world, people whose conscience is seared etc. But the problem is that once you have the mark its GAME OVER. You are lost forever.

So if you're interpretation is true, nobody can be saved. In fact, I am unsavable due to my past.

NEXT

 

[delirious]

Everyone seems to have this problem when making this chapter speak of two millennium instead of a future time period:

They say the mark just means worshiping false gods, beast system, unbelievers who love the world, people whose conscience is seared etc. But the problem is that once you have the mark its GAME OVER. You are lost forever.

So if you're interpretation is true, nobody can be saved. In fact, I am unsavable due to my past.

The chapter, along with the rest of the book, is highly symbolic. The first verse of Revelation tells you don't read it literally. That doesn't mean there are no literal verses but it should be understood largely symbolically.

Is the mark permanent? You are assuming it is. When is the mark "received"? End of life? During life?

In my opinion, you are thinking way too literally. We disagree. Fair enough.

 

[Hevosmies]

The chapter, along with the rest of the book, is highly symbolic. The first verse of Revelation tells you don't read it literally. That doesn't mean there are no literal verses but it should be understood largely symbolically.

Is the mark permanent? You are assuming it is. When is the mark "received"? End of life? During life?

In my opinion, you are thinking way too literally. We disagree. Fair enough.

Mark is permanent the text says that.
The mark is received DURING life, the text also says that. The first verse of revelation does NOT tell me to read it in its plain meaning, signified doesnt mean that. Many of the symbols are interpreted within the first chapter of the book, it explains what the stars are, what the candlestads are etc. No mystery.

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

That proves its permanent, no getting out of it. If ANY MAN. and then what follows is what are the consequences.

Its received during this life and not at end of life which you for some ODD reason suggested, dont know where you came up with that when the text clearly says its during ones' life? Whats up?
Here is the evidence:

Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

In your opinion I am thinking too literally, but let me explain to you why I believe my view is superior:

With the way you read revelation, ANYONE can make it say ANYTHING they want it to say. Let me just make up one example of a spiritual interpretation that im inventign RIGHT NOW in my head: "mark of the beast is given to the forehead which represents your thoughts. or the right-hand which represents willful sin. In the OT if you sin with a "high hand" it means you sin wilfully. Therefore everyone who has a wicked mind and sins willfully has the mark of the beast."

Now, there I just invented what the mark is, and it is just as viable as what you suggested. Because we used the same spiritual method of interpreting the text. Now some literalist will come to me and say, but how does sinning wilfully prevent you from buying and selling? I will reply "Well buddy, its not talking about real buying orselling, its about being able to be among the true born again saints. In proverbs it says BUY THE TRUTH; sell it not. Thats what its talking about".

See I just spiritualized another part of it. Now I will go one more: The two beasts arent actually world kingdoms, but rather Catholicism and protestantism. Both speaking the language of the dragon.


See???? When you start going off on this method of interpretation you are suggesting, we can make the text say pretty much what we want

 

[Hevosmies]

CONTINUED:

How did I (and i can guarantee 90% of other futurists out there) come to my view?

Its simple. And its OBJECTIVE TRUTH. We take a look at the eschatological chapters and verses, and the book of Revelation. We take a look at history, see what has happened and what hasnt happened. If it has not occured yet, we say its FUTURE, yet to be fulfilled, because ALL SCRIPTURE must be fulfilled!

Has there ever been a mark of the beast in the world, preventing people from buying and selling? NO! Therefore it is future.
Has third of waters been turned to blood yet? NO! Therefore its future.

It really is that simple. Its a view that you can come to by just reading the Bible on your own, no interpretors needed. Im just saying this because of the whole "Jesuits created futurism" deal. I never read any jesuit writings

The reason why I believe my view is superior to yours is because as I demonstrated above ^ you cant use my view to come up with all kinds of weird interpretations.
It HAS TO LINE UP. But if you DONT take it literally (unless its clearly symbolic, obviously) you can make it say anything you want. ANd nobody really knows what it means. This is why many reformers were COMPLETELY lost on eschatology. (That and replacement theology)

 

[Absolutely]

Those spiritualizing are doing so as protection.
Their doctrine bogs down without those special interpretations.
Several items in history destroy preterism...and they know it.

 

[iamsoandso]

Those spiritualizing are doing so as protection.
Their doctrine bogs down without those special interpretations.
Several items in history destroy preterism...and they know it.

delirious is (Amil.) not preterit so Methodist,Lutheran, Churches of Christ ect.,,,

 

[Locutus]

delirious is (Amil.) not preterit so Methodist,Lutheran, Churches of Christ ect.,,,

Full P is the logical conclusion - amill posits most of the prophecies already fulfilled Bro.

I'll bet most FP's were amills rather than say dispenstationalists.

 

[delirious]

The first verse of revelation does NOT tell me to read it in its plain meaning, signified doesnt mean that.

The word is G4591 "Semaino". It means to "make known through signs". Many of the "signs" are not explained in Revelation but some of them are. You have to know your Old Testament to understand the book. That is not a straight forward literal reading as you suggest. You are wrong. It is a symbolic book.

That proves its permanent, no getting out of it. If ANY MAN. and then what follows is what are the consequences.

The "mark" is spiritual. That is why it is contrasted with the "seal" of God's servants on their forehead in the same chapter in Rev 14: 1. Are all God's people during your so called 7-year tribulation walking around with a seal on their forehead then? That's what you got to say if you are consistent with your bad hermeneutic. God knows when the person receives the "mark" as an unbeliever.

Its received during this life and not at end of life which you for some ODD reason suggested, dont know where you came up with that when the text clearly says its during ones' life? Whats up?

That's why they were in question form. Not because I believe those things. The hope was maybe you could attempt to think outside the box which is important for understanding prophecy. I have noticed with dispensationalists they think very rigidly and literally. This is why they enjoy sensationalistic, newspaper, tabloid prophecy. Too bad you guys are looking for the wrong things.

With the way you read revelation, ANYONE can make it say ANYTHING they want it to say.

This is a lie that dispensationalists love to use because on the surface it sounds good. It will fool someone who is not a good critical thinker. I have given you good reasons for why the amillennialist believes what he believes from Scripture. We don't make it say whatever we want. Just to remind you of a couple examples:

The "beast" of Revelation 13 is not the antichrist as dispensationalists falsely claim. Compare Daniel 7: 1-7 and Rev 13: 1-2 and you will see strong evidence for it being any world government/kingdom that sets itself in opposition to God. The text fits way better than some antichrist.

Same thing with the "mark". I contrasted it with the "seal" for believers in the same chapter Rev 14. The "seal" is for believers and the "mark" is for unbelievers. This is why all who take the "mark" perish since they are unbelievers. So amillennialists are not making it say anything we want. Another lie and false claim by dispensationalists because it sounds good.

Has there ever been a mark of the beast in the world, preventing people from buying and selling? NO! Therefore it is future.
Has third of waters been turned to blood yet? NO! Therefore its future.

Like I said before, you read too literally assuming there has been no "mark" before. Those things are all symbolic in a book that tells you its symbolic.

You never answered the question about the Apostle John, Peter and many others who weren't beheaded. I guess they are out of luck and don't get to reign during the millennium. Scripture refutes your literal hermeneutic for Revelation.

I've also already shown in previous posts that there is no seven year treaty with antichrist and Israel. Daniel 9: 24 refutes it using Scripture and shows that it is not possible. Scripture refutes dispensationalism everywhere.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I've also already shown in previous posts that there is no seven year treaty with antichrist and Israel. Daniel 9: 24 refutes it using Scripture and shows that it is not possible. Scripture refutes dispensationalism everywhere.

delirious, my apologies for taking so long to get back to this thread.

Have you considered (and would it even make a difference in your viewpoint) that "atonement" occurred (OT) more times than (OTHER THAN) just on "the day of Atonement" (the once-a-yr, IN the temple thing)?? Consider the following:

Arno C Gaebelein on Leviticus 14, the cleansing of a leper ["make atonement for"]

[quoting]

The second part of the ceremony [Leviticus 14:9-20] on the eighth day restored the leper completely to his privileges. All is done again “before the Lord,” a phrase missing in the first part of the ceremony but repeatedly mentioned in the second part. The trespass offering occupies the prominent place. [note Daniel's prayer and the wording in 9:7b - "and unto all Israel, near, and far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee."] And the blood of the lamb was put upon the right ear, the thumb of the right hand and upon the great toe of the right foot. The symbolical meaning is clear; the ear [interesting to note how, in Rev, ONE "ear" is mentioned, as opposed to "[plural] ears" during Jesus' earthly ministry/the gospels ] is cleansed and restored to hear the Word; the hand to serve and the foot to walk. The blood of atonement in its cleansing power is therefore blessedly foreshadowed in this ceremony. It has the same meaning as it had in the consecration of the priests. The leper was like one who came out of the realms of death and corruption to become again a member of the priestly nation. The oil was put then upon the blood. Where the blood was, the oil was also applied. The work of the Holy Spirit in the sanctification of the redeemed sinner is typified by this anointing. The oil was then poured upon him, the type of the unction of the Holy One, which is upon all who are redeemed by blood.

But there is still another lesson connected with all this. The delay in the full acceptance of the healed and cleansed leper and his full reinstitution and presentation before the Lord on the eighth day is of deeper meaning. The eighth day in the Word of God represents the resurrection and the new creation. We are now as His redeemed people healed and cleansed but not yet in the immediate presence of the Lord. The seven days the cleansed leper had to wait for his full restoration and to enter in, typify our life here on earth, waiting for the eighth day, the blessed morning, when the Lord comes and we shall possess complete redemption and appear in the presence of Himself and behold His glory. The eighth day came and it was impossible for the leper, upon whom the blood of the sacrificial bird had been sprinkled, to be kept out from appearing in His presence and receive the blessings of full redemption. Even so there comes for us, His redeemed people, the eighth day. May we also remember that the leper, waiting for the eighth day, had to cleanse himself by the washing of water (verse 9). “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God” (2Corinthians 7:1). “And every man that hath this hope in Him purifies himself, even as He is pure” (1John 3:3).

Nor must we forget Israel typified in this entire ceremony. Israel blinded is morally like a leper. They are outside and separated from Jehovah on account of their condition. In the future the remnant of Israel will be cleansed and then wait for that full restoration which God in His gracious purposes has promised unto them.

--Arno C Gaebelein, Commentary on Leviticus 14 [source: Bible Hub], the cleansing of a leper ["make atonement for"]

[end quoting; bold and underline mine, bracketed comments mine]

https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/leviticus/14.htm

______________________________________

I may have mentioned before, that I believe that Ezek38-39 (Gog-Magog War) correlates with the 2nd SEAL Wars [fairly early in the future 7-yr trib], where there seems to be a parallel between what is stated in Ezek39:7 ("so will I make my holy name known in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL" (note Rom9:26/Hos1:10 re: Israel, in contrast to Rom9:25/Hos2:23b re: the Gentiles)] with that of what was said of Joseph in the 2nd year of his SEVEN YEAR famine, in Genesis 45:1 ("And there STOOD no man with him, while Joseph made himself known unto his brethren." [Rev4-5 (future events, when Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" Isa3:13 at the START of the 7-yrs/70th-Wk--no lightbulbs have been left on the earth, and Paul's conversion [being a TYPE of the future 144,000] involves the "and SUDDENLY there shined round about him A LIGHT FROM HEAVEN"...and then the "and Saul arose from the earth [like Hosea 5:15-6:3 & Ezek37:12-14,20-23 re: Israel]; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man [kinda like what was portrayed on "the Mount of Transfiguration" (a picture of the future MK glory)]: but they led him by the hand [the hand cleansed??], and brought him to Damascus. And he was there three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink"); just some additional (somewhat-related) thoughts... ])

 

[Absolutely]

That is a dispensational teaching and you did not get that from the Bible. It sounds good on the surface but when you apply it to prophetic passages it is erroneous. They are not to always be taken literally. Sometimes they are, sometimes they are not. Depends on the context.

If you are reading 1 and 2 Kings that literary genre is historical narrative. It is obvious we take it mostly literally. It is describing what happened in Israel in a point in time.

You don't do this with apocalyptic/prophetic narrative. It is a mistake the dispensationalist makes. When you read your newspaper you read it in a "normal" way. Do you do the same when you read poem? No. It is symbolic imagery and you don't take it too literally. You are looking for the meaning in the poem. Prophetic books are the same way in the Bible. Much of them are poetry like the Psalms.



I just put forth what I believe is a good argument in post #502 that the "beast" is not the antichrist but world governments throughout history.



For the sake of argument, let's use your "plain literal sense" dispensational hermeneutic and apply it to the "beheadings" you mentioned.

You are referencing Revelation 20: 4 where it says those "who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

So if you are to remain consistent with your hermeneutic then you have very few apostles being raised to reign during the 1,000 year millennium. The apostle John, Peter and many other apostles were not "beheaded". You also believe the "mark" is a future thing and they didn't take that either. Verse 5 says the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were over. So if you don't fit in the category of Rev 20: 4 you don't get resurrected. That means the apostle John and Peter and many others miss out.

The dispensational hermeneutic proves itself false.

No,it means you are skipping 1 thes 4,and that amil doctrine refuses to take Israel becoming a nation into account.
That amil doctrine was birthed in the light of Israel being sacked and taken out of the picture.
They had partial understanding. Amil seemed feasable

 

[delirious]

delirious, my apologies for taking so long to get back to this thread.

Have you considered (and would it even make a difference in your viewpoint) that "atonement" occurred (OT) more times than (OTHER THAN) just on "the day of Atonement" (the once-a-yr, IN the temple thing)?? Consider the following:

Arno C Gaebelein on Leviticus 14, the cleansing of a leper ["make atonement for"]

It sounds to me, from your post about Leviticus 14, that you believe that those 6 things that Gabriel mentions in Daniel 9: 24 can be accomplished apart from Christ and the cross. Is that what you are saying? Please forgive me if I misunderstand you.

So the Jewish people by suffering in exile can "atone for iniquity" and "bring in everlasting righteousness" apart from Christ? Then what did Christ die for?

I'm sorry Watermark, and I mean this with all due respect, but the idea is heresy. It is a desperate attempt to try and keep the dispensational interpretation of Daniel's 70 weeks alive.

Daniel 9: 24 makes it clear that those 6 things are accomplished WITHIN the 70 weeks time frame. Dispensationalists have the 70th week removed into the far future. That makes Jesus crucified OUTSIDE the 70 weeks time frame.

Jesus was crucified during the 70th week. That's exactly what Daniel 9:26a and Daniel 9:27a both say. He accomplished those 6 things just like Gabriel said he would WITHIN the 70 weeks.

The only way to keep the dispensational interpretation of Daniel's 70 weeks alive is if you say Christ had nothing to do with accomplishing those 6 things.

Is that what you are saying?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ No, that's not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that Jesus has three roles: Prophet [primarily in His earthly ministry, 1st Advent], Priest [primarily in His present ministry, seated at the right hand]; King [primarily at His Second Coming to the earth and throughout the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom]. He would not accomplish the future ones apart from His "death and resurrection" having taken place/been accomplished.

So in the OT priestly duties, some [re: "atonement"] were accomplished IN THE TEMPLE (i.e. on the day of Atonement), whereas others [re: atonement] were accomplished by the priest going OUTSIDE of and far from the temple, to where the "lepers" were, and were in need of "cleansing" ('make atonement for'), and not on that one particular date alone. And I see where, like in passages such as Ezekiel 39:12,16, that "cleanse the land" is part of what will occur, and also in passages where some had come into contact with a dead body were required to undergo "cleansing" (Haggai 2:6-23 [esp vv.13-14] refers to "unclean" by reason of a "dead body," but there's another passage I think I'm thinking of... It'll come to me... … maybe 2 Chronicles or something... )

 

[KJV1611]

Dan 9:24 (KJV) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

What do you guys think “finish the transgression” means? What transgression?