Predestination is misunderstood...

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,674
113
You cant Judge others people standards by a righteous persons standards. Believing in full is not an instantaneous thing
right ... faith is strengthened over the lifetime of the believer. Scripture talks about Abraham being strong in faith ... Scripture doesn't say Abraham had a lot of faith ... Scripture tells us Abraham's faith was strong. Jesus talks about faith like a mustard seed which, from what I understand, is a very small seed ... but the mustard plant can grow quite large.




Thunderrr-mental said:
People have to be transformed by drawing nearer to God.
yes. Romans 12:1-2.




Thunderrr-mental said:
Faith is grown through and individual experience unique to a person and God.
God brings the increase (strengthens) ... the believer just has to get out of the way (quit suppressing) when God reveals truth to him or her. Let God work within to strengthen the faith as we mature from newborn babe to full adult.



1 Corinthians 3:6-7 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
3,380
528
113
. You don't have to download the pdf either you can read it online

John Calvin taught repentance was absolutely necessary for forgiveness of sins.

https://ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes/institutes.v.v.html

Here is one point that he made....

For instance, that to repent is to deplore past sins and not commit what is to be deplored.
Again that it is to bewail past evils and not to sin to do what is to be bewailed. Again, that
it is a kind of grieving revenge, punishing in itself what it grieves to have committed."

That phase of which is manifested in having repentance is what could normally take place in a new believer.....
For its the foundational stage of learning the new life in Christ, and attending the funeral of one's old self.

Since new believers will often have fresh in their minds their depravity they once lived in. And, are just coming out of it?
Repentance in that case can easily be manifested strong feelings of grief and painful regret.
But that is not what repentance means in the Greek.

What Calvin described is a typical phase one "baby Christian" repentance.

Because, the word "repentance" simply means to change one's mind.
The word in the Greek is ' metanoia. '

Metanoia -repentance - does not have to accompany any emotion.
It simply means deciding for a change in ones thinking in regards to something.
Often, when repentance involves a life changing event... the "change in thinking" can become quite emotional in effect.

For example....

Someone just learned that why they were so miserable and sick all the time is because they have developed Diabetes type 2.
They had long been lovers of junk food, and now deeply regret how much they used to crave what they now realize is bad for them.

So? As they face the bad effects of their condition they wish to heal from?
They can easily kick themselves and emote with great sorrow in deep regret for having been so foolish.
Next, they may become rigid and militant against all junk food.... Some may even wish to blow up a food processing plant.

But as time goes on? And, that mature?
They stabilize, and learn to accept what is proven good nutrition.
And, in greater maturity simply learn what to avoid and what to eat.

All those phases involves having a changes in mind. ("repentance")
Repentance does not have to involve sorrow and pain any longer as they learn
and keep on changing their mind about what to eat, and what to avoid.

The mistake legalists tend to make is to say that repentance means you must feel sorrow and pain when changing one's mind.
While metanoia /'repentance' - simply means to change ones thinking.

We need to know this because some legalists will claim one's repentance was not genuine unless the person grieves
and hurts.

On the other hand.. Some repentance can end up being joyful.
Like when someone had been oppressed in some church that teaches you can lose your salvation.
When he is shown the Scriptures that shows it would be impossible that change in thinking can cause jubilation and relief.
That joyful one after being shown the evidence had 'changed his thinking' on the matter. The unrepentant will deny the truth.

That is why true growth in Christ comes from a life of repentance.. being taught sound doctrine on many areas of life
that cause the one learning to go from repentance to repentance...

grace and peace .................
 
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
:
right ... faith is strengthened over the lifetime of the believer. Scripture talks about Abraham being strong in faith ... Scripture doesn't say Abraham had a lot of faith ... Scripture tells us Abraham's faith was strong. Jesus talks about faith like a mustard seed which, from what I understand, is a very small seed ... but the mustard plant can grow quite large.





yes. Romans 12:1-2.





God brings the increase (strengthens) ... the believer just has to get out of the way (quit suppressing) when God reveals truth to him or her. Let God work within to strengthen the faith as we mature from newborn babe to full adult.


1 Corinthians 3:6-7 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
.
all of his life is given a new seed. As all of life has his life already in them before the seed is given.

The seed is planted in his life that already exists in all mankind,

Everyone is given seed.
 
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
Here is one point that he made....

For instance, that to repent is to deplore past sins and not commit what is to be deplored.
Again that it is to bewail past evils and not to sin to do what is to be bewailed. Again, that
it is a kind of grieving revenge, punishing in itself what it grieves to have committed."

That phase of which is manifested in having repentance is what could normally take place in a new believer.....
For its the foundational stage of learning the new life in Christ, and attending the funeral of one's old self.

Since new believers will often have fresh in their minds their depravity they once lived in. And, are just coming out of it?
Repentance in that case can easily be manifested strong feelings of grief and painful regret.
But that is not what repentance means in the Greek.

What Calvin described is a typical phase one "baby Christian" repentance.

Because, the word "repentance" simply means to change one's mind.
The word in the Greek is ' metanoia. '

Metanoia -repentance - does not have to accompany any emotion.
It simply means deciding for a change in ones thinking in regards to something.
Often, when repentance involves a life changing event... the "change in thinking" can become quite emotional in effect.

For example....

Someone just learned that why they were so miserable and sick all the time is because they have developed Diabetes type 2.
They had long been lovers of junk food, and now deeply regret how much they used to crave what they now realize is bad for them.

So? As they face the bad effects of their condition they wish to heal from?
They can easily kick themselves and emote with great sorrow in deep regret for having been so foolish.
Next, they may become rigid and militant against all junk food.... Some may even wish to blow up a food processing plant.

But as time goes on? And, that mature?
They stabilize, and learn to accept what is proven good nutrition.
And, in greater maturity simply learn what to avoid and what to eat.

All those phases involves having a changes in mind. ("repentance")
Repentance does not have to involve sorrow and pain any longer as they learn
and keep on changing their mind about what to eat, and what to avoid.

The mistake legalists tend to make is to say that repentance means you must feel sorrow and pain when changing one's mind.
While metanoia /'repentance' - simply means to change ones thinking.

We need to know this because some legalists will claim one's repentance was not genuine unless the person grieves
and hurts.

On the other hand.. Some repentance can end up being joyful.
Like when someone had been oppressed in some church that teaches you can lose your salvation.
When he is shown the Scriptures that shows it would be impossible that change in thinking can cause jubilation and relief.
That joyful one after being shown the evidence had 'changed his thinking' on the matter. The unrepentant will deny the truth.

That is why true growth in Christ comes from a life of repentance.. being taught sound doctrine on many areas of life
that cause the one learning to go from repentance to repentance...

grace and peace .................
Im not concerned how the Greeks put repentance into a box with there understanding.

With this change your mind nonsense,


Repentance has to be genuine from the heart not this in your mind rubbish.
 
Mar 7, 2024
837
63
28
if one isn't saved by God's choice, whose choice is it? :unsure:
It's God's choice. He's the boos, you don't get to choose anything apart from your choice to sin. Everyone is born with a sin nature, and they can never change that no matter how hard they try. The sin nature rules everyone, unless God saves them from themselves.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
Scripture PROOF God intended for ALL men to find Him.
This is why God created ALL humans from ONE man: to find God:

26 God made one man. From that one man he has made all the nations of men to live on the whole earth. He has given to each nation a certain time and a certain place to live.

27 He did this so they would look for him. He wanted them to reach out and find him. But he is not far from each one of us.


The Reformed Doctrine tries to hide this verse because it proves man can find God if they try..
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
3,380
528
113
Scripture PROOF God intended for ALL men to find Him.
This is why God created ALL humans from ONE man: to find God:

26 God made one man. From that one man he has made all the nations of men to live on the whole earth. He has given to each nation a certain time and a certain place to live.

27 He did this so they would look for him. He wanted them to reach out and find him. But he is not far from each one of us.


The Reformed Doctrine tries to hide this verse because it proves man can find God if they try..

The body of Christ should always be growing and expanding in knowledge and gaining understanding.


Sometimes.....

Reformed = Deformed.

They just did not understand certain truths well enough back then.

grace and peace .........
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
4,321
714
113
The body of Christ should always be growing and expanding in knowledge and gaining understanding.


Sometimes.....

Reformed = Deformed.

They just did not understand certain truths well enough back then.

grace and peace .........
Amen Brother, Amen!
 
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
The body of Christ should always be growing and expanding in knowledge and gaining understanding.


Sometimes.....

Reformed = Deformed.

They just did not understand certain truths well enough back then.

grace and peace .........
no haved to reformed to be transformed.

This is not addressing true Calvin correctly

quote-we-cannot-rely-on-god-s-promises-without-obeying-his-commandments-john-calvin-139-76-54.jpg
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,927
1,273
113
i think i asked you a very simple question.

you said, no one is saying we're saved by our own choice. i asked, if it isn't God 's choice, whose is it?

will you please just answer my question directly? if you need clarification, i'll certainly try to give it.
 

sawdust

Active member
Feb 12, 2024
980
198
43
68
Australia
i think i asked you a very simple question.

you said, no one is saying we're saved by our own choice. i asked, if it isn't God 's choice, whose is it?

will you please just answer my question directly? if you need clarification, i'll certainly try to give it.
It's God's choice to save and He's chosen to save believers.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,927
1,273
113
Men are saved by God's determination.
determination:

1. firmness of purpose; resolve

2. a fixed intention or resolution.

3. The ascertaining or fixing of the quantity, quality, position, or character of something.

yes, i agree with that.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,927
1,273
113
Scripture PROOF God intended for ALL men to find Him.
This is why God created ALL humans from ONE man: to find God:

26 God made one man. From that one man he has made all the nations of men to live on the whole earth. He has given to each nation a certain time and a certain place to live.

27 He did this so they would look for him. He wanted them to reach out and find him. But he is not far from each one of us.


The Reformed Doctrine tries to hide this verse because it proves man can find God if they try..
what a very unusual translation. did you write it yourself? it's notably missing the Greek words for IF and PERHAPS.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,927
1,273
113
It's God's choice. He's the boos, you don't get to choose anything apart from your choice to sin. Everyone is born with a sin nature, and they can never change that no matter how hard they try. The sin nature rules everyone, unless God saves them from themselves.
indeed. Jer 13:23
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,927
1,273
113
It's God's choice to save and He's chosen to save believers.
sigh. whose choice was it for you to become a believer? that's the question i'm asking. if you can show your answer from scripture, that would be great.
 
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,674
113
i think i asked you a very simple question.

you said, no one is saying we're saved by our own choice. i asked, if it isn't God 's choice, whose is it?

will you please just answer my question directly? if you need clarification, i'll certainly try to give it.
I think I answered ...


your question is a straw man

will you please just accept my answer.
.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,707
545
113



"For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world
to be holy and blameless in His presence."


Ephesians 1:4​

It does not say that we were simply chosen by Him.
But, specifically, that we were "chosen in Him."

What does "chosen in Him" mean?

Understanding that phrase is the key to understanding predestination.

grace and peace ..............
God predestined in Son Jesus to save us


Genesis 3:15

Authorized (King James) Version

15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


Matthew 5:18

Authorized (King James) Version

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


John 19:30

Authorized (King James) Version

30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Hebrews 9:14-17

Authorized (King James) Version

14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that wereunder the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The above is the pre-destination I see is what is now revealed by the done work of Son for us the people in need of new life for us in God's Spirit and Truth for us


John 4:23-24

Authorized (King James) Version

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

We all by God through Son I see are called to believe God or not, that simple to me now, was not at the beginning of turning to believe God, it has been long walk here on earth, off a short pier drowning over and over and obver again and again under Law given me to do be people or else attitudes
God took that away for us alll to see as whenever God decides to reveal to whoever God chooses for God's reasons, not anyone else's