“THE elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;” 2 John 1 (KJV 1900)
Predeterminism and free will
- Thread starter DBurrage
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
In end it doesn't matter. Nothing changes. Evangelism is still the same for either belief. Just bring people to Jesus.
As Christ is God's elect, chosen for service, so also these in 2 John have been elect for service. Election is never for salvation. That's not bible, if so, Christ was elect to be saved. Not so my friend, not so.
1 Timothy 2:1-6 New International Version (NIV)
Instructions on Worship
2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
1 Timothy 4:10 New International Version (NIV)
10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
The veil was torn and the debt was paid for all of mankind. But not all will believe.
Instructions on Worship
2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
1 Timothy 4:10 New International Version (NIV)
10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
The veil was torn and the debt was paid for all of mankind. But not all will believe.
“Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;” Colossians 3:12 (KJV 1900)
Well I am in the same boat as you, as it stands I am not entirely sure either because there is evidence for both sides. But yeah I did consider that as well and you know something I have always wondered is if God knew everything before hand then what about Adam and eve? I mean honestly it confuses me, if he knew beforehand what they would do and how sin would be brought about but he made them anyways placed a tree with forbidden fruit on it in the garden and told them not to eat it.
I mean he said if you eat the fruit you will surely die, why use the word if? and why put that tree there to begin with when he could have not had it there at all if they were going to without a doubt eat from it. And he is a just and fair God it is not like him to do anything that is unjust he never punishes for no reason and he always give people a chance to change their ways so that is something I have noticed and why predestination doesn't quite add up to me.
But does predestination not follow from the idea that God is omniscient?
I do not know the answers to these questions.
Well it depends because while he is all knowing he gave man free will the ability to choose, Predestination sects that because he is all knowing he predestined who would be saved and that means that people are either born into this world destined for heaven or for hell.
Tbh it is not an easy answer, so I have always believed when it comes to salvation he lets free will come into play.
I do not have the scriptural evidence to disprove predestination but the God I know and have experienced has been so warm and loving to me I am like a small innocent child with an adoring affection with him and the father I have come too know is not the kind who would create people knowing they would go to hell and yet still make them.
So sadly the answer you seek is not from me I believe what I believe not because I have scriptural evidence but because of what I have come to know of him and because of what my hearts speaks of him and sometimes maybe that is the way it is supposed to be.
We can try to wrack our brains around the understanding of such complex things but our thoughts are not his thoughts and his ways are not our ways the scriptures can be misunderstood and misinterpreted but when we come to know him, when we develope that deep and intimate bond and love with him our hearts know him we hear him we see him we feel him so maybe it is a bit cliche and maybe it is not the way a debate is done but I find it better to sometimes listen to my heart instead of confusing myself trying to understand.
That which I bolded and underlined. Wow. You’re letting your experience trump everything the Bible has written about predestination? Whom He foreknew<——it’s a Greek verb, which means He was active in foreknowing them. Also, it was whom He foreknew, not foreknew their actions and acted accordingly.
No what I was saying is that sometimes we have to take into account of who he is not simply what we see the scriptures say or what we think they say. We as humans can try our best to understand the things of God but there are some things that we will not be able to comprehend , sure predestination makes sense at first glance but then the rest of his actions don't line up.
Again, God has always warned people before he did anything, with Noah, with the jews countless times he would send prophets to warn them to change thewir ways sometimes they listened sometimes they didn't, Jesus said in luke 9 23 Then Jesus said to all of them, “If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me. Now what does this have to do with predestination? notice the words he used if
come after me now why the word if instead of when? and why come after me ? to come after someone is a choice
If some were born to be in hell or heaven then why use those words in that way?
Or we can put it this way with a simple question, do you or do you not have free will? If you have the choice of doing right or wrong do you choose or were you predestined to make that choice no matter what?
If you have a choice then you have free will but if predestination is true then you never had that choice to begin with you were always going to do that
If you have a choice then you have free will but if predestination is true then you never had that choice to begin with you were always going to do that
And we don’t know anything about Him other that what He graciously chose to reveal of Himself to us via the scriptures. The Christ used those words to single His ppl out. He didn’t say this and then leave it up to them to decide. He already knew His ppl, as the Father gave them to Him to redeem from the goats. As He wonderfully stated, ”My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”[John 10:27-30]
That call was to separate the elect from the non-elect, the sheep from the goats, the vessels of mercy from the vessels of wrath. At no time were they one and then became the other. Ppl are born either/or, not a switch from one to the other.
Yes he does reveal himself in the scriptures but he reveals even more in the relationship we have with him. How do you get to know anyone? you talk with them you spend time with them you get to know them more and more as you grow closer this is the same with him.
There is a reason I am so fascinated by him and why I seek to know him so badly, every thing about him his traits his personality his way of being way of thinking way of seeing all this I found because I hungered to know him, while granted it is merely a single drop compared to the depth of who he truly is it was more than enough to make me fall in love with him over and over again.
Why do you think it is called a relationship? if all we could know about him was what we read it wouldn't be much of a relationship would it? if we read the scriptures and know him but something just doesn't add up does that mean we are putting our experience above what the scriptures say or does that mean we are looking deeper than what we think we see in the pages?
Free will is not about making any and all choices. It’s not about choosing which shirt, and/or color of it, what pants or shorts, or shoes to wear. Obviously we all make choices. Free will is in regards to coming to Him. And the Bible can’t be any clearer on this subject my friend. Look at John 6:44 and John 6:65. ”No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”[vs 44] “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”[vs 65]
Now, let’s investigate two words found in those two vss, “draw” and “granted”. Ppl will readily use John 12:32 for their proof text that He is drawing everyone indiscriminately. But that’s not what it’s saying. “Draw in John 6:44 and John 12:32 is the Greek word helko, and it means to literally drag off, to lead, compel, draw. Now, what it does NOT mean is to drag us kicking and screaming against our wills, but rather, He effectually draws us to Himself. It is used in John 18:10 when Peter drew his sword, and in John 21:11 when Peter drew the net to shore. The same Greek word helko is used. It is also used in Acts of the Apostles 16:19 when they Paul and Silas out into the marketplace. It is also used in Acts of the Apostles 21:30 when they drew Paul out of the temple and shut the door behind him. It is also used in James 2:6 as well. So, you can see, that in every instance helko is used, those who are drawn, come, whether it’s a person, sword, or net. The word means when God draws, those He draws come to Him. So, if that is what John 12:32 means, that He is literally drawing everybody, them everybody is saved, as those who are drawn, come.
Then in Philippians 1:29, suffering for Him is just as much granted by God as believing is.
So according to you then I could have been born into this world gone through all the abuse cancer and suffering in this life but easily could have been predestined for hell? I mean to be born into this cruel unfair world not even choosing to be born to begin with not even conscious of anything while being formed in the womb yet this child being born into this world not of their own accord was created only so that they could go to hell?
You are acting like a victim and not the rebel sinner you were born. I’d figure if a guy is guilty you’d expect the judge to exonerate them, even when guilty. No one is merited grace, my friend. You are demanding God grant grace to everyone, and that undermines the very definition of grace.
So, you were never a slave to sin and Satan? Wow! The Bible says you and I and the whole human race was prior to being saved.