Predeterminism and free will

[DrGuyPhD]

And this is precisely my point.

How can we have true free will if everything is predetermined?
Is free will Biblical?

I do not know the answers to these questions.

Oooh, this is another awesome question! Thanks for asking it!! I really have been enjoying your threads and the discussions that you have. I wanted to reply to this because I think that it is an important question and so I can work through it myself. I'll try to go after the second question because I think it is going to be a good segue to the first one. Is free will Biblical? When we look at the world in terms of morality, there are 4 possibilities in which it could be formed.

1) No world at all
2) A world where there is no such thing as good or evil
3) A world where people would only choose good
4) A world where people could choose between good and evil.

Out of all of these possibilities, only in a world with option of good and evil can love exist. In the bible we are told the story of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. There have been many questions about this. Why would God put it there? Well, by putting the tree there, and telling Adam not to eat of it, God gave humankind the choice to follow God's command, which is good, or to not follow his commands, evil. By giving man this choice, love is now possible. For where love is forced, there is no love. But where love is chosen, there is love. Now how can we have free will if everything is predetermined. I mentioned this same issue in another post i did before. I think we often confuse God's omniscience for predetermination. Just because God knows all, does not mean that we do not have free will. I often use this example to think of it. if I offered my sister a pigeon or a bacon, egg and cheese on a croissant, i know she is going to pick the sandwich. I did not force to do it, but I knew her well enough to know what she would pick before she did it. This is how God works. He knows us so intimately. He formed us in seclusion, numbered the hairs on our heads, and thinks about us endlessly. Isn't that beautiful. That God would expose to evil because it was a necessity for us to have the choice to love him and have a relationship with him!! It is to me!

 

[Blain]

You are acting like a victim and not the rebel sinner you were born. I’d figure if a guy is guilty you’d expect the judge to exonerate them, even when guilty. No one in merited grace, my friend. You are demanding God grant grace to everyone, and that undermines the very definition of grace.

Make no mistake I mentioned my past but my point was that the cruelty of this world is not one of our own choosing being born into it and so to be born into it but your destined for hell anyways certainly doesn't sound like love and grace does it?
My concern is about others who are born into this world under cruel and unfair circumstances and I am not demanding anything of God because I don't have to, he is a fair and just God his grace is offered to everyone but it is a gift we have to choose to accept.

The main issuiie I have with this doctrine is the damage you can do to people with it. Do you have any idea how many new believers come to this place? and How many already struggle with doubt and fear and worry about sin and salvation? On more than one occasion I have tried to comfort and help new believers who saw things like this on here but ran away believing they were destined for hell and one person who I was friends with in real life came to cc and he struggled severely with anxiety depression and had suicidal thoughts all the time he came to Christ hoping to be saved from all this and was doing good at first he seemed happy happier than I have ever seen him but then threads like this pop up and people insist on proving some are destined for heaven and hell and he saw one even though I warned him to not go to the bdf and killed himself the next day.

So yes I am very much against it and I absolutley cannot stand the damage I have seen from it and the pain it has caused others and my own heart

 

[Blain]

So, you were never a slave to sin and Satan? Wow! The Bible says you and I and the whole human race was prior to being saved.

That is exactly my point, according to predestination we all started out like this but some were predestined to stay slaves

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

That is exactly my point, according to predestination we all started out like this but some were predestined to stay slaves

Again, you are demanding God at least offer grace to all or He is not being fair according to your standards. That way when God 'offers' grace, and they reject it, His hands are clean and He has gotten off your hook.(off the hook is a @preacher4truth 's saying, I am borrowing it from him, not plagiarizing him ) What you are offering is not grace, but merit. For if God does not offer grace to everyone w/o exception, well, then, He just isn't being fair. You are conflating His being fair with His being just. If He was fair with all of us, everyone of us would be cast headlong into the lake of fire. That is Him being fair. You are accusing God of being unjust if He does not 'try' to save everyone.

God left every nation other than Israel in their justly condemned state. Look at these two passages...What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.[Rom. 3:1-2] Notice that it was only the nation of Israel that God entrusted with His word. No other nation could make this claim. They were left to their idols and idolatry. I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit—I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, [ut]he temple worship and the promises[/u]. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.[Romans 9:1-5] Look at all the Jews, the nation of Israel had. None of this could the other nations lay claim to. God had justly left them to themselves. No other nation did God give them a high priest to intercede before Him. No other nation did God give a covenant to serve Him. No other nation did He give a sacrificial system to to atone for their sins. They were justly left(by God) in their fallen condition.

Now, before you say these nations had rejected God, or had done some awful things, and therefore, God didn't give them the things I just mentioned, take a gander at this...For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession. The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.[Deut. 7:6-8] There was nothing special in Israel that attracted God to them. There was not something missing in the other nations God left in their justly condemned state that caused God to reject them.

For whatever reason, you are saying that there is something 'good' in man that attracts God to them. No Calvinist would ever aver that. We realize that God saves ppl in spite of who they are. You side avers there is something good in man, and that they deserve at least a chance to be saved, or God is not being fair. In essence, your side is averring that God is unjust unless He meets your self-righteous standards, and that, my friend, is horribly sad.

 

[Blain]

Again, you are demanding God at least offer grace to all or He is not being fair according to your standards. That way when God 'offers' grace, and they reject it, His hands are clean and He has gotten off your hook.(off the hook is a @preacher4truth 's saying, I am borrowing it from him, not plagiarizing him ) What you are offering is not grace, but merit. For if God does not offer grace to everyone w/o exception, well, then, He just isn't being fair. You are conflating His being fair with His being just. If He was fair with all of us, everyone of us would be cast headlong into the lake of fire. That is Him being fair. You are accusing God of being unjust if He does not 'try' to save everyone.

God left every nation other than Israel in their justly condemned state. Look at these two passages...What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.[Rom. 3:1-2] Notice that it was only the nation of Israel that God entrusted with His word. No other nation could make this claim. They were left to their idols and idolatry. I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit—I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, [ut]he temple worship and the promises[/u]. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.[Romans 9:1-5] Look at all the Jews, the nation of Israel had. None of this could the other nations lay claim to. God had justly left them to themselves. No other nation did God give them a high priest to intercede before Him. No other nation did God give a covenant to serve Him. No other nation did He give a sacrificial system to to atone for their sins. They were justly left(by God) in their fallen condition.

Now, before you say these nations had rejected God, or had done some awful things, and therefore, God didn't give them the things I just mentioned, take a gander at this...For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession. The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.[Deut. 7:6-8] There was nothing special in Israel that attracted God to them. There was not something missing in the other nations God left in their justly condemned state that caused God to reject them.

For whatever reason, you are saying that there is something 'good' in man that attracts God to them. No Calvinist would ever aver that. We realize that God saves ppl in spite of who they are. You side avers there is something good in man, and that they deserve at least a chance to be saved, or God is not being fair. In essence, your side is averring that God is unjust unless He meets your self-righteous standards, and that, my friend, is horribly sad.

And again I do not need to demand anything of him because he is a fair and just God, and yes there is good in man just as there is evil. But the good does not outweigh the bad we still need salvation from ourselves . You are under the impression that I demand God tries to save everyone and give fair judgement and chance for salvation but as I said that is already the case. Perhaps you do not understand him in the way I do, not that I am by any means better but rather what he and I have is something very tender and intimate so I know him better than that to accept such a stance. And yes you can say I am putting experience over scripture but from what I have seen all over is that scripture seems to be vastly misunderstood, again I say you have to take into account of who he is with the scriptures.

I realize I cannot convince you otherwise so I will leave it that

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

And again I do not need to demand anything of him because he is a fair and just God, and yes there is good in man just as there is evil. But the good does not outweigh the bad we still need salvation from ourselves . You are under the impression that I demand God tries to save everyone and give fair judgement and chance for salvation but as I said that is already the case. Perhaps you do not understand him in the way I do, not that I am by any means better but rather what he and I have is something very tender and intimate so I know him better than that to accept such a stance. And yes you can say I am putting experience over scripture but from what I have seen all over is that scripture seems to be vastly misunderstood, again I say you have to take into account of who he is with the scriptures.

I realize I cannot convince you otherwise so I will leave it that

First off, I want to thank you for taking the time to converse with me my friend.

Now, let us break this down to the very root of our discussion, grace. Now, we both know what grace is, "unmerited favor". In other words, grace is given to those it is given to without regard to who or what they are. God's grace is unmerited, in that there was nothing in His objects of grace that drew Him to them, neither was there anything good. You said there is good in man, but the bible says “No one is good—except God alone."[Mark 10:18b] That was what the Christ told the rich young ruler. So, no matter how good someone is, if they are not in Christ, then biblically speaking, they are not good. And as you rightly stated, the bad does outweigh the good.

So, if grace is truly unmerited favor, and it is, then that grace must also be free. As Dr. James White said(paraphrasing)"For grace to be grace, it must be free. It cannot be demanded."

You keep conflating fairness with grace. If God were fair with us, then we'd get what we deserved, the lake of fire. God being fair is not Him being gracious. I don't want Him to be fair with me, I want Him to be gracious to me.

You said this...

You are under the impression that I demand God tries to save everyone and give fair judgement and chance for salvation but as I said that is already the case.

Where has He done this? Show me where God gave the Jebusites, Egyptians, Assyrians, Syrians, Philistines, Moabites, Hittites, Hivites, et al, a high priest to intercede for them before God. Show me where God gave them a covenant to be His ppl. Show me where God gave them a sacrificial system to atone for their sins. Show me where He did any of these things for them. He justly left them in their fallen state.

And yes, you're allowing experience to trump what God has clearly revealed through the scriptures.


And the LORD said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."[Exo. 33:19]

For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.[Rom. 9:15-18]


God gives mercy to those He chooses to give mercy. God gives compassion to those He chooses to give compassion. And God hardens those He chooses to harden.

"God gives the elect grace. God gives the non-elect justice. He never gives anyone injustice." Dr. R. C. Sproul

 

[Blain]

First off, I want to thank you for taking the time to converse with me my friend.

Now, let us break this down to the very root of our discussion, grace. Now, we both know what grace is, "unmerited favor". In other words, grace is given to those it is given to without regard to who or what they are. God's grace is unmerited, in that there was nothing in His objects of grace that drew Him to them, neither was there anything good. You said there is good in man, but the bible says “No one is good—except God alone."[Mark 10:18b] That was what the Christ told the rich young ruler. So, no matter how good someone is, if they are not in Christ, then biblically speaking, they are not good. And as you rightly stated, the bad does outweigh the good.

So, if grace is truly unmerited favor, and it is, then that grace must also be free. As Dr. James White said(paraphrasing)"For grace to be grace, it must be free. It cannot be demanded."

You keep conflating fairness with grace. If God were fair with us, then we'd get what we deserved, the lake of fire. God being fair is not Him being gracious. I don't want Him to be fair with me, I want Him to be gracious to me.

You said this...



Where has He done this? Show me where God gave the Jebusites, Egyptians, Assyrians, Syrians, Philistines, Moabites, Hittites, Hivites, et al, a high priest to intercede for them before God. Show me where God gave them a covenant to be His ppl. Show me where God gave them a sacrificial system to atone for their sins. Show me where He did any of these things for them. He justly left them in their fallen state.

And yes, you're allowing experience to trump what God has clearly revealed through the scriptures.


And the LORD said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."[Exo. 33:19]

For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.[Rom. 9:15-18]


God gives mercy to those He chooses to give mercy. God gives compassion to those He chooses to give compassion. And God hardens those He chooses to harden.

"God gives the elect grace. God gives the non-elect justice. He never gives anyone injustice." Dr. R. C. Sproul

When the ot covanent was the law we were all bound by different chains and yes he did harden hearts and even in revelation he says he will send a strong delusion, he is both a lion and a lamb he can be loving and tender but also fierce and to be feared, the ot was mainly a showing of his fierce side the side to respect and fear a part of him people tend to ignore and avoid but it is him all the same, he never offered grace back then not in the way that came when Jesus finished what was always intended. The bible is in essence a love sotry written by the greatest author and in this love story he shows first the fall and flaws of mankind and his righteousness and authority he is not one to underestimated but in the new covanent the one of grace that is where things change. I only say there is good in man not because there is good in the way he is good but man is not made or born with darkness only what we do in our lives decides how much of which we we lean.
The grace offered is called a gift and I keep bringing that up because it is important to note that a gift freely given is not one some get and some don't, we choose our destiny he gives us the ability to choose and with free will

the scriptures say how he desires for all to be saved and turn from their wicked ways such as these
Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. would I not prefer he turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in anyone's death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!
Now I do want to clarify that I have seen your posting and have found you to be a respectable person in the matters of God's word but in this particular instance I do disagree with you and I also want to mention I never meant anything against you. But salvation is a free gift offered and he always warns us to keep our lanterns lit he contsantly tells us to keep our hearts set on him and this is for a good reason because it is easy to fall under our own failings and perhaps in this particular topic I am a bit more stubborn because of the damage it has caused my heart, not me personally but the damage I have seen it done to others and I can be a bit protective and so it may cloud my judgement but I still do believe he offers all the gift it is just a matter of if they want it or not.
Some people will never be saved because they love the wickedness and evil so much were they predestined for that? I cannot say because I prefer to keep the benefit of the doubt that even in the most evil and darkest hearts there is something there he saw worth fighting for and dying for.

It may be beyond my understanding but predestination is a topic that is complex in nature and many scholars will debate it endlessly. I know what the scriptures say and as I said both sides can find evidence for their view but for the purpose of whether predestination is true or false I think we need to look at things in a different light because there are some things in the bible that not just anyone can comprehend.

And as I stated in my first post I have not found enough evidence to be able to prove my view but the same is also said for the other side, if one person can be saved but another cannot then it brings to question many things and we see with different eyes we see and understand the scriptures differently than god so that is why if all else fails I look to him.

If I had a guess I think there is a balance between the two views somewhere, grace, love , mercy, judgement righteousness and even fiery anger these all are traits of him and both sides seem to lean more towards one or the other but I believe this is not a black and white topic.
You have shown your stance well and you clearly know the scriptures you show more of a scholar mind than me, I show my heart and see with it and speak what I have come to know of him we debate as if they are opposites contradicting each other but these are two halfs of the same whole and while I do enjoy debating with you at the moment I have to take a deeper look at this and ponder it more because I can't help but feel something is missing

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

When the ot covanent was the law we were all bound by different chains and yes he did harden hearts and even in revelation he says he will send a strong delusion, he is both a lion and a lamb he can be loving and tender but also fierce and to be feared, the ot was mainly a showing of his fierce side the side to respect and fear a part of him people tend to ignore and avoid but it is him all the same, he never offered grace back then not in the way that came when Jesus finished what was always intended. The bible is in essence a love sotry written by the greatest author and in this love story he shows first the fall and flaws of mankind and his righteousness and authority he is not one to underestimated but in the new covanent the one of grace that is where things change. I only say there is good in man not because there is good in the way he is good but man is not made or born with darkness only what we do in our lives decides how much of which we we lean.
The grace offered is called a gift and I keep bringing that up because it is important to note that a gift freely given is not one some get and some don't, we choose our destiny he gives us the ability to choose and with free will

the scriptures say how he desires for all to be saved and turn from their wicked ways such as these
Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. would I not prefer he turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in anyone's death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!
Now I do want to clarify that I have seen your posting and have found you to be a respectable person in the matters of God's word but in this particular instance I do disagree with you and I also want to mention I never meant anything against you. But salvation is a free gift offered and he always warns us to keep our lanterns lit he contsantly tells us to keep our hearts set on him and this is for a good reason because it is easy to fall under our own failings and perhaps in this particular topic I am a bit more stubborn because of the damage it has caused my heart, not me personally but the damage I have seen it done to others and I can be a bit protective and so it may cloud my judgement but I still do believe he offers all the gift it is just a matter of if they want it or not.
Some people will never be saved because they love the wickedness and evil so much were they predestined for that? I cannot say because I prefer to keep the benefit of the doubt that even in the most evil and darkest hearts there is something there he saw worth fighting for and dying for.

It may be beyond my understanding but predestination is a topic that is complex in nature and many scholars will debate it endlessly. I know what the scriptures say and as I said both sides can find evidence for their view but for the purpose of whether predestination is true or false I think we need to look at things in a different light because there are some things in the bible that not just anyone can comprehend.

And as I stated in my first post I have not found enough evidence to be able to prove my view but the same is also said for the other side, if one person can be saved but another cannot then it brings to question many things and we see with different eyes we see and understand the scriptures differently than god so that is why if all else fails I look to him.

If I had a guess I think there is a balance between the two views somewhere, grace, love , mercy, judgement righteousness and even fiery anger these all are traits of him and both sides seem to lean more towards one or the other but I believe this is not a black and white topic.
You have shown your stance well and you clearly know the scriptures you show more of a scholar mind than me, I show my heart and see with it and speak what I have come to know of him we debate as if they are opposites contradicting each other but these are two halfs of the same whole and while I do enjoy debating with you at the moment I have to take a deeper look at this and ponder it more because I can't help but feel something is missing

I do appreciate the grace you've extended to me. The same God in the OT is the same exact God in the NT. If you read Revelation, He is the very same God of wrath that He was in the OT.

You keep saying salvation is a gift, and I agree 100% that it is. However, where you and I part ways, is the way it is received. You teach that God extends it out, and it is up to us to reach out and take hold of it. There's only one problem there, the lost are spiritually dead and cannot reach out and take hold of it. The way you teach it, it becomes a work to receive it. Let me explain before rushing to judgment, K?

There is a line "here". To the left of that line is the lost, and to the right of it is God. The line represents their free will. As you(and those who are in your free will camp) teach it, God will not violate ppl's free will. So, God extends the gift of salvation out, but He doesn't extend it past that line, as that would violate their free will. It is up to them to reach out to that line and accept the gift of salvation. And when they reach out and take hold of it, they are saved, they are born again, they are made alive in the Christ! Again, there is one problem here. You are having the lost reaching out in a dead state to receive the gift of salvation. You are saying the dead in sins reach out and do that which only a born again person can do. What you are saying is that after the Christ saw Lazarus coming out of his tomb after He called him out, and then made him alive after he came out. You are putting the effect of salvation ahead of the cause.

Now, I hold to salvation and regeneration(not the same thing) happening at the same time. When God regenerates a lost person, they are also saved at that same exact time.

I am sorry I didn't addressed your whole post. It was rather hard to address it all en toto. If there was something I didn't address in it and you want me to, let me know what it is and I will do so.

Thanks again for your civility.

 

[Prycejosh1987]

My question in this thread concerns predeterminism and free will.

My reading of the Bible is that everybody who will receive salvation has their name written in the book of life - right or wrong?

If this is true, and if God already knows who will reconcile with him through Jesus, how does this idea tally with free will?

Is free will Biblical?

The bible also says that our names can be blotted out of the book. In other words its not saying that God deosnt know what he is doing but it is saying that choices we make can cause us to lose our salvation.