M
MacBestus
Guest
Shabbat Shalom brother Dan. I will be happy to respond tommorow evening to any repliesnas my Sabbath is beginning and I am busy.
probably the greatest weakness of Hebrew Roots
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you asked for a meaning, I gave you an example.
you can disagree with that meaning if you wish.
Do tell. It can only go on forever if one party refuses to provide verses to refute the others verses. Which lack of verses you have shown yourself good at.
Ok then. Law keeping. Show me how it is wrong.
that was my experience. You may have had different experiences.
' Ok then. Law keeping. Show me how it is wrong.'
not that it is wrong, but that discussing the practice of it often brings an end to the discussion, in my experience.
I love keeping the Sabbath!
EXODUS 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
EXODUS 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
EXODUS 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.
I go hang gliding on the Sabbath.
EXODUS 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
EXODUS 20:9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work,
EXODUS 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.
I go hang gliding on the Sabbath.
Hi Guys - this will be a 'hit and run' post, as our family is in the midst of a 1000 mile move 
.
The greatest weakness of the HRM and any other Law 'keeping' belief system is either a misunderstanding or a denial of the Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood of Christ.
The Scriptures are very clear on this matter - Christ is of the tribe of Judah, and God has made Him a Priest forever of a New Covenant by an oath, which puts an end to all disputes (Heb. 6:16).
This is not a 'renewal' of the Old Covenant, which had many priests of the tribe of Levi - a covenant which could make no one perfect, but a New Covenant, built on better promises and which has a better Priesthood \o/!
Furthermore, there can be no mixing of the two covenants:
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. (from 1 Tim. 2)
When one comes to terms with the all-encompassing reach and efficacy of Christ's Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood, there are undeniable implications regarding the following but not limited to
The Levitical priesthood is NEVER coming back - it cannot - God has made an oath that Christ is a priest FOREVER, and there can be only ONE mediator between God and mankind. That Mediator is Christ of the Tribe of Judah, Perfect, Permanent High Priest of the New Covenant, not a Levite mediating the obsolete Old Covenant.
The letter to the Hebrews, the whole thing really, but chapters 6-10, in particular, make these things very clear.
The next question is, "If the Old Covenant is obsolete, then just what is the substance of the New Covenant? What are we to DO?!"
The New Covenant, the Torah, God's Instructions after the Cross are simple:
23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 Jn. 3)
This is the Good News - the Gospel, of which we are to be ambassadors. That God, in Christ, was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their sins against them (2 Cor. 5:16-21).
If we as the Body of Christ can grasp this truth and begin to love others into the Kingdom by telling them that God has already made a way for them to be reconciled to Himself rather than judging them and telling them all the things they must do and the behavior they must change to be reconciled to and/or stay reconciled to God (works salvation), then just watch as God changes hearts and minds and the Fruit (a harvest of righteousness) that will follow \o/!
Gotta go - saw this thread and felt led to post the above. Back to the busy-ness that is my life right now! Miss you guys!
Grace and peace to you all,
-JGIG
.The greatest weakness of the HRM and any other Law 'keeping' belief system is either a misunderstanding or a denial of the Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood of Christ.
The Scriptures are very clear on this matter - Christ is of the tribe of Judah, and God has made Him a Priest forever of a New Covenant by an oath, which puts an end to all disputes (Heb. 6:16).
This is not a 'renewal' of the Old Covenant, which had many priests of the tribe of Levi - a covenant which could make no one perfect, but a New Covenant, built on better promises and which has a better Priesthood \o/!
Furthermore, there can be no mixing of the two covenants:
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. (from 1 Tim. 2)
When one comes to terms with the all-encompassing reach and efficacy of Christ's Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood, there are undeniable implications regarding the following but not limited to
- Christ's ability to save us completely through His Work at the Cross and His Resurrection
- Christ's ability to ever intercede on our behalf due to an indestructible Life resulting in his Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood
- The obsolescence of the Old Covenant and its priesthood - The Law - an all-inclusive, comprehensive unit
- The establishing of the New Covenant - Grace - built on better promises and a better Priesthood, resulting in a new heart and the renewing of the mind and the bearing of Fruit that God's Spirit produces
- Any eschatatology that includes bringing back in any form or practice of the Old Covenant including Feasts, Temple rites, or sacrifices of any kind
The Levitical priesthood is NEVER coming back - it cannot - God has made an oath that Christ is a priest FOREVER, and there can be only ONE mediator between God and mankind. That Mediator is Christ of the Tribe of Judah, Perfect, Permanent High Priest of the New Covenant, not a Levite mediating the obsolete Old Covenant.
The letter to the Hebrews, the whole thing really, but chapters 6-10, in particular, make these things very clear.
The next question is, "If the Old Covenant is obsolete, then just what is the substance of the New Covenant? What are we to DO?!"
The New Covenant, the Torah, God's Instructions after the Cross are simple:
23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 Jn. 3)
This is the Good News - the Gospel, of which we are to be ambassadors. That God, in Christ, was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their sins against them (2 Cor. 5:16-21).
If we as the Body of Christ can grasp this truth and begin to love others into the Kingdom by telling them that God has already made a way for them to be reconciled to Himself rather than judging them and telling them all the things they must do and the behavior they must change to be reconciled to and/or stay reconciled to God (works salvation), then just watch as God changes hearts and minds and the Fruit (a harvest of righteousness) that will follow \o/!
Gotta go - saw this thread and felt led to post the above
. Back to the busy-ness that is my life right now! Miss you guys!Grace and peace to you all,
-JGIG
Who said men do not have to obey it by guarding it closely?
No one is ignoring anything .The ones that are not cerimoinal in nature .
Adultery is not a cerimoinal law. The ceremonial meat requirements as shadows were also reformed at the time of reformation. The shadow became the substance.
Doubting Peter was shown three times.(three being the end of the matter) .
Do you doubt “What God hath cleansed”, that call not thou common?
And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.But the voice answered me again from heaven, “What God hath cleansed”, that call not thou common. And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven. Act 11:7
I think understanding of the difference between the things of men (shadows) as ceremonial laws like the Sabbaths, and the fulfillment of them (the things of God ) must be determined .
The reformation has come. What time period and manner of the government of God do you think it was restored to?
I offer the time of Judges when there was no outward representation to be used as a shadow and God by a work of his faith reigned from heaven as King of kings. This is when Israel had no king.
The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until "the time of reformation." Heb 9:8
good question!
a better way to put it
I like the idea of hang gliding on Saturday.
Hi Guys - this will be a 'hit and run' post, as our family is in the midst of a 1000 mile move
The greatest weakness of the HRM and any other Law 'keeping' belief system is either a misunderstanding or a denial of the Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood of Christ.
The Scriptures are very clear on this matter - Christ is of the tribe of Judah, and God has made Him a Priest forever of a New Covenant by an oath, which puts an end to all disputes (Heb. 6:16).
This is not a 'renewal' of the Old Covenant, which had many priests of the tribe of Levi - a covenant which could make no one perfect, but a New Covenant, built on better promises and which has a better Priesthood \o/!
Furthermore, there can be no mixing of the two covenants:
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. (from 1 Tim. 2)
When one comes to terms with the all-encompassing reach and efficacy of Christ's Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood, there are undeniable implications regarding the following but not limited to
- Christ's ability to save us completely through His Work at the Cross and His Resurrection
- Christ's ability to ever intercede on our behalf due to an indestructible Life resulting in his Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood
- The obsolescence of the Old Covenant and its priesthood - The Law - an all-inclusive, comprehensive unit
- The establishing of the New Covenant - Grace - built on better promises and a better Priesthood, resulting in a new heart and the renewing of the mind and the bearing of Fruit that God's Spirit produces
- Any eschatatology that includes bringing back in any form or practice of the Old Covenant including Feasts, Temple rites, or sacrifices of any kind
The Levitical priesthood is NEVER coming back - it cannot - God has made an oath that Christ is a priest FOREVER, and there can be only ONE mediator between God and mankind. That Mediator is Christ of the Tribe of Judah, Perfect, Permanent High Priest of the New Covenant, not a Levite mediating the obsolete Old Covenant.
The letter to the Hebrews, the whole thing really, but chapters 6-10, in particular, make these things very clear.
The next question is, "If the Old Covenant is obsolete, then just what is the substance of the New Covenant? What are we to DO?!"
The New Covenant, the Torah, God's Instructions after the Cross are simple:
23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 Jn. 3)
This is the Good News - the Gospel, of which we are to be ambassadors. That God, in Christ, was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their sins against them (2 Cor. 5:16-21).
If we as the Body of Christ can grasp this truth and begin to love others into the Kingdom by telling them that God has already made a way for them to be reconciled to Himself rather than judging them and telling them all the things they must do and the behavior they must change to be reconciled to and/or stay reconciled to God (works salvation), then just watch as God changes hearts and minds and the Fruit (a harvest of righteousness) that will follow \o/!
Gotta go - saw this thread and felt led to post the above
Grace and peace to you all,
-JGIG
'The New Covenant, the Torah, God's Instructions after the Cross are simple:
23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.'
I'm glad you posted that.
rather than dealing with 600 or 700 commandments, John returns us to the idea that Torah is a single unit.
and that also works well for illiterate people... much easier to remember.
M
MacBestus
Guest
Dan, you never answer the questions asked. Is it because you cannot find the answers without conceeding?
M
MacBestus
Guest
Hi Guys - this will be a 'hit and run' post, as our family is in the midst of a 1000 mile move
The greatest weakness of the HRM and any other Law 'keeping' belief system is either a misunderstanding.
...
Grace and peace to you all,
-JGIG
Hello JGIG. Thank you for your comment as these are common errors those who promote and subscribe to the doctrine that we are free to sin (sin doctrine or SD) make, and are quite easily dispelled through scripture.
You stated “The greatest weakness of the HRM and any other Law 'keeping' belief system is either a misunderstanding or a denial of the Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood of Christ..
The Scriptures are very clear on this matter - Christ is of the tribe of Judah, and God has made Him a Priest forever of a New Covenant by an oath, which puts an end to all disputes (Heb. 6:16). “
The HRM says nothing of the kind. Pure false witness on your part. Repent. What the HRM espouses is what the bible says. There are two priesthoods. The Melchizedek priesthood and the Levitical priesthood. And there always has been the Melchizedek priesthood. It came before the Levitical. According to Hebrew and Jewish understanding each of the Patriarchs starting from Adam was the Melchizedek, or “king-priest” of this order. Until Jacob. Jacob split the inheritance between Judah (king) and Levi (priest) and those offices were carried on by those two tribes until coming back together under Messiah. The confirmation verse of this in Hebrews is 6:20 btw not 6:16
The Levitical priesthood is just a maintenance and training priesthood put into place until the order of Melchizedek is ready to take over the duties and remove the training wheels. But the Levites have always been a subset of the Melchizedek. The priest king referred to as Melchizedek is believed to be Noahs son Shem by everyone except Dispensationalists. And is plainly stated in DueteroCannon referenced in the scripture, such as Yasher as well as by other Jewish writings, as well as its description in the bible.
You continue:
“This is not a 'renewal' of the Old Covenant, which had many priests of the tribe of Levi - a covenant which could make no one perfect, but a New Covenant, built on better promises and which has a better Priesthood \o/!”
I am not sure what the ending emoticon means unless it is supposed to be a representation of the straw you are grasping at
but as to your words.. It does not matter if you say new or renewed. The words New Covenant come from Jerimiah 31. Much of Hebrews 8 is a word for word cut and paste job from this passage and was probably the text the author used to teach it from as the old Testament was “the bible” at the time. So humor me and lets look at it.31 Behold, the days come, saith יהוה, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
This is how the KJV puts it. Other versions use renewed. Because the Hebrew word used for new here is châdâsh and can mean either new or renewed. Fresh or freshened. And it really does not matter to us as believers because as we continue we find the law is still involved
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith יהוה:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith יהוה, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohim, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know יהוה: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith יהוה; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith יהוה, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; יהוה of hosts is his name:
Ok so when the new covenant takes effect we wont need books traditions or pastors to teach the LAW because He will have written it into our hearts and minds. If you deny this you deny Jerimiah as a prophet and so cast Hebrews out with it because it relies HEAVILY on Jeremiah. Continuing in Jerimiah we find that the New Covenant does not take place until certain things have happened. Most obviously the full sanctification of all of Jerusalem to Our Father. Which would mean all mosques and yoga studios and other places rooted in anti biblical worship systems will have been removed from the city forever. That has obviously not happened.
Jerimiah 31: 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know יהוה: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith יהוה; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith יהוה, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; יהוה of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith יהוה, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith יהוה; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith יהוה.
38 Behold, the days come, saith יהוה, that the city shall be built to יהוה from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto יהוה; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.
Ok so rechecking the verses you suggested in Hebrews…. Its almost word for word quotes.
Here is Hebrews 8 for instance:
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith יהוה, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith יהוה.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith יהוה; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them Elohim, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know ye יהוה: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Easy peasy.
“Furthermore, there can be no mixing of the two covenants:”
I agree. Looks like you have some reading to do.
You continue:
”When one comes to terms with the all-encompassing reach and efficacy of Christ's Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood, there are undeniable implications regarding the following but not limited to
• Christ's ability to save us completely through His Work at the Cross and His Resurrection”
•
Yes. Salvation is through Grace not works. Every HRM should understand this and most do.
You go on:
• “Christ's ability to ever intercede on our behalf due to an indestructible Life resulting in his Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood..”
Right outcome, wrong logic path. Yours provide limitations that I do not see, but since the out come is the same I will leave your logic path alone.
• “The obsolescence of the Old Covenant and its priesthood - The Law - an all-inclusive, comprehensive unit”
•
I have already shown this to be at best in error and at worst blasphemous not only in this thread but in this post. Please use scripture to prove your point.”
• “The establishing of the New Covenant - Grace - built on better promises and a better Priesthood, resulting in a new heart and the renewing of the mind and the bearing of Fruit that God's Spirit produces”
•
This line alone will show your misunderstanding plainly to you or anyone else that has been reading the scriptures given in this thread. I recommend your reviewing EFB's. Gathering fruit video available for free on you tube at https://youtu.be/Ou9czqGXgyc because I think you need to see what the bible says about it, and since EFB is heavily New testament you should be right at home. I realize you are moving but it will help you find some serious errors in your reasoning. You go on:
“Any eschatatology that includes bringing back in any form or practice of the Old Covenant including Feasts, Temple rites, or sacrifices of any kind”
Okay here you are just making up stuff out of whole cloth. You are the ONLY one who teaches this heresy. How far did you get in Hebrews. Even the evangelical dispensational GotQuestions.org has this to say:”
Question: "Will there be animal sacrifices during the millennial kingdom?"
Answer: There are several passages in the Old Testament that clearly indicate animal sacrifice will be re-instituted during the millennial kingdom. Some passages mention it in passing as the topic of the millennial kingdom is discussed, passages like Isaiah 56:6-8; Zechariah 14:16; and Jeremiah 33:15-18.
The passage that is the most extensive, giving the greatest detail, is Ezekiel 43:18-46:24. It should be noted that this is part of a greater passage dealing with the millennial kingdom, a passage that begins with Ezekiel 40. In Ezekiel 40, the Lord begins to give details of the temple that will exist during the millennial kingdom, a temple that dwarfs all other temples previously built, even Herod’s temple that was quite large, which existed during the earthly ministry of Christ.
After giving details concerning the size and appearance of the temple and the altar, the Lord then begins to give detailed instruction as to the animal sacrifices that will be offered (Ezekiel 43:18-27). In chapter 44, the Lord gives instructions as to who will be offering sacrifices to the Lord. The Lord states that all of the Levites will not be offering blood and fat to the Lord due to previous sin; it will be those from the lineage of Zadok (note from MacBestus, this is the priestly half of the Melik-Zadik or Melchizedek I was referencing earlier 2nd witness) (verse 15). Chapters 45 and 46 continue to mention that animal sacrifices will be made.
The primary objection made to the idea of animal sacrifices returning during the millennial kingdom is that Christ has come and offered a perfect sacrifice for sin, and there is therefore no need to sacrifice animals for sin. However, it must be remembered that animal sacrifice never removed the sin that spiritually separated a person from the Lord.
Hebrews 10:1-4 says, “For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins" (NASB).
It is incorrect to think that animal sacrifices took away sins in the Old Testament, and it is incorrect to think they will do so in the millennial kingdom. Animal sacrifices served as object lessons for the sinner, that sin was and is a horrible offense against God, and that the result of sin is death. Romans 3:20 says, “Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.”
Most premillennial scholars agree that the purpose of animal sacrifice during the millennial kingdom is memorial in nature. As the Lord’s Supper is a reminder of the death of Christ to the Church today, animal sacrifices will be a reminder during the millennial kingdom. To those born during the millennial kingdom, animal sacrifices will again be an object lesson. During that future time, righteousness and holiness will prevail, but those with earthly bodies will still have a sin nature, and there will be a need to teach about how offensive sin is to a holy and righteous God. Animal sacrifices will serve that purpose, "but in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year" (Hebrews 10:3).
And there are ample verses about feasts in the millennium that show you are either unlearned or unstable in Peters words. Leading people against bible words is a serious thing. I will pray for you. Please repent of your desire to purge whole books of scripture to allow you to keep the sin doctrine and teach it to others. Because of that one line I rebuke you in messiahs name. I know this is not a simple error on your part because a simple web search shows you have been given these verses in other places where you deny them and teach the denial of them to those with itching ears. Repent sister, you have even left the camp of evangelical dispensational believers with THAT teaching.
You continue:
“The Levitical priesthood is NEVER coming back - it cannot - God has made an oath that Christ is a priest FOREVER, and there can be only ONE mediator between God and mankind. That Mediator is Christ of the Tribe of Judah, Perfect, Permanent High Priest of the New Covenant, not a Levite mediating the obsolete Old Covenant.”
This shows you do not know the old covenant… it was ALWAYS that way. Honestly read it before you try and teach it.
“The letter to the Hebrews, the whole thing really, but chapters 6-10, in particular, make these things very clear.”
Yes it does. You should read it again along with Isaiah and Jerimiah.
The next question is, "If the Old Covenant is obsolete, then just what is the substance of the New Covenant? What are we to DO?!"
Not my question at all not anyone else that has read the bible.
“The New Covenant, the Torah, God's Instructions after the Cross are simple:
23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 Jn. 3)”
And lets not forget. John 14: 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Or James Faith without works is lost.
Or the very last chapter of the very last book…Revelations 22: 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Lets not forget the church of Philadelphia keeps the law and the testimony of Messiah. Not one or the other.
“This is the Good News - the Gospel, of which we are to be ambassadors. That God, in Christ, was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their sins against them (2 Cor. 5:16-21).”
That is right. But he also said go forth and sin no more after we are forgiven. And Paul added should we sin that Grace may abound? Heaven forbid!
“If we as the Body of Christ can grasp this truth and begin to love others into the Kingdom by telling them that God has already made a way for them to be reconciled to Himself rather than judging them and telling them all the things they must do and the behavior they must change to be reconciled to and/or stay reconciled to God (works salvation), then just watch as God changes hearts and minds and the Fruit (a harvest of righteousness) that will follow \o/!”
Another straw. Accurate..also and again you show that you do not understand the HRM. There is no salvation by works. Salvation is by Grace. We fight sin (lawlessness) because we love him. There is however the chance to lose salvation through willful sinning. He refers go this as being blotted out of the lambs book of life.
I pray for you sister…. But more I pray for the souls you have misled through your lack of bible reading and strange desire to sin rather than follow messiah.
I know this post was uncharacteristically harsh of me but I felt a rebuke was in order that you understand your error and be rewarded for it. I pray messiah helps you leave off following and teaching the sin doctrine.
With love and prayers for an easy move.
M
MacBestus
Guest
Sorry i missed your comment before. That is a great idea...but not from a smart phone... And as i am travelling right now that is all i have.
that weakness is in all of us. Jesus Christ extended His Grace to all not just the Hebrew people. Yet, they are as God put it "a stiff necked people" which is why they have been in trouble for thousands of years. Yet for those that do not accept Jesus Christ, God will not abandon them but will bring many of them into the light of Jesus Christ as foretold in the Book of Revelations.
M
MacBestus
Guest
Hey Garee. Thanks for this chance to dispel a few more misconceptions.
I had said "To those who do not think we need to obey the Fathers Will as shown in His commands anymore I have a question...."
To which you said:
"Who said men do not have to obey it by guarding it closely?*"
Well certainly not me... But let me ask you what Guard means to you, and what verses you are referencing.
Our exchange continues with me saying:
"How do you decide which ones it is Okay to ignore or at least disobey, and which ones to keep?"
Your reply to this was:
"No one is ignoring anything .The ones that are not cerimoinal in nature ."
Please let me know where I can find the verses listing the ceremonial laws as opposed to the other laws still in effect.
I continue:
"Like the rule against adultery is still vailid but you can eat any meat you want or add pagan holidays into our faith while dropping the biblical."
Here you double down on this distinction with the reply:
"Adultery is not a cerimoinal law. The ceremonial meat requirements as shadows were also reformed at the time of reformation. The shadow became the substance."
One of the most fervent desires of the folks who live the Sin Doctrine is this meat issue. You Continue:
"Doubting Peter was shown three times.(three being the end of the matter) .
Do you doubt*“What God hath cleansed”, that call not thou common?
And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.But the voice answered me*again*from heaven,*“What God hath cleansed”, that call not thou common.*And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven. Act 11:7"
This is probably the most common verse chunk given by those who teach the Sin Doctrine as a proof text for eating unclean meats.
Before I continue let me ask you...isn't it true that whenever a dream or parable is given in scripture, the meaning is supplied? And wouldn't it be foolish if someone said we should ignore the meaning given in scripture and say the dream or parable means some sort of literal thing instead of what the bible says it means?
You would laugh at me if I tried to convince you that Joseph was wrong and Pharaohs dream really had nothing to do with famine, they were just supposed to feed the cows to each other. Or that the Parable of the Wise virgins is just instruction to the Messiahs future harem about hat he expects at the second coming. You would laugh right out loud.
Yet when it comes to Peter's vision... This us exactly what Sin Doctrine believers are taught and teach.
Even though by Peter and Paul's own testimony they never ate unclean. Lets continue a little further in Acts from where you conveniently left off before the visions meaning is given.
Acts 11:7*And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
*8**But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
*9**But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed,*that*call not thou common.
*10**And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.
*11**And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
*12**And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
*13**And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
*14**Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
*15**And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
*16**Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said,*John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
*17**Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as*he did*unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
*18**When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Well there it is plain as day. This vision is about letting the Gentiles into the church. If you are a believer that is not of Hebrew bloodlines this is the vision Messiah sent to give you access to the Church! Not to BACON. How foolish.
As if the Messiah who could not have clarified or dismissed Leviticus 11 while he walked with them, he had to send a post transfiguration vision saying go ahead and eat some shrimp.
You would cast off most believers entry to the church for THAT?
Especially when dietary prohibitions are again talked about a few chapters later in Acts 15:20 where the ceasing of eating of blood was required of new believers before they could fellowship. Or was that kind of dietary law a moral law by your rules?
You continue:" I think understanding of the difference between the things of men (shadows) as ceremonial laws like the Sabbaths, and the fulfillment of them (the things of God ) must be determined .*"
I think first we must figure out where your getting this heresy from and correct it before you unintentionally stumble someone else. Or provide scripture to show me in error.
You continue:" The reformation has come. What time period and manner of the government of God do you think it was restored to?*
I offer the time of Judges when there was no outward representation to be used as a shadow and God by a work of his faith reigned from heaven as King of kings. This is when Israel had no king.."
I guess you haven't spent much time looking into this era as they believed YHWH was their king but wanted a human one like their neighbors. For instance:
And the Lord said unto Samuel, ‘Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto you: for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me,*that I should not reign over them.’”
•*1 Samuel 8:7*(cf. 1 Samuel 10:19)
The word “reign” here is the Hebrew malak which is the verb form of the Hebrew word for king,*melek. This is the other half of the Melchizedek. The King Part. *Israel was to be His particular “kingdom of priests” (Exodus 19:6) with YHWH as their King. More to the point, after Saul was anointed as the new human king and announced to Israel, Samuel specifically said that YHWH was their King in earlier times.
“And when you saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, you said unto me, ‘Nay; but a king shall reign over us’:*when the YHWH your Elohim was your king.’”
•*1 Samuel 12:12
When the people requested a king, Our Father told Samuel to tell the elders of Israel what to expect from a human king. When Samuel made the announcement to the people of Israel he said:
“And Samuel said to all the people, ‘See you him whom YHWH has chosen, that there is none like him among all the people?’ And all the people shouted, and said, ‘YHWH save the king.’”
•*1 Samuel 10:24
SO The first king of Israel was actually YHWH Himself, YHWH. King David certainly considered Him to be King over him, over Israel and over the whole earth:
“Hearken unto the voice of my cry,*my King, and my ELOHIM: for unto you will I pray.”
•*Psalm 5:2
“You are my King, O YHWH: command deliverances for Jacob.”
•*Psalm 44:4
“Sing praises to YHWH, sing praises: sing praises*unto our King, sing praises. For*YHWH is the King of all the earth: sing you praises with understanding. YHWH reigns over the heathen: YHWH sits upon the throne of his holiness.”
•*Psalm 47:6-8
“They have seen your goings, O YHWH; even the goings of*my ELOHIM, my King, in the sanctuary.”
•*Psalm 68:24
“For*YHWH is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth.”
•*Psalm 74:12
“Yea, the sparrow has found a house, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may lay her young, even your altars,*O YHWH of hosts, my King, and my ELOHIM.”
•*Psalm 84:3
“I will extol you,*my YHWH, O king; and I will bless thy name for ever and ever.”
•*Psalm 145:1
Jeremiah also considered YHWH to be King of earth.
“But YHWH is the true Elohim,*he is the living Elohim, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.”
•*Jeremiah 10:10
You conclude with:
"The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that*could not*make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood*only*in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and*carnalordinances, imposed on them*until*"the time of reformation." Heb 9:8"
Of course... The Master himself told us the same.
Matthew 5:17**Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
*18**For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
*19**Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach*them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
And when do heaven and earth pass away? No need to guess. It is at the Reformation. The schedule is given in Revelations 21:1**And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
The reformation is at the end of the millennium. Glorified bodies for all. The law no longer written on stones or books but in our hearts as it was in Eden. The adversary and his followers removed from us. New Jerusalem arrives.
Even the definition given in the concordance for the word reformation in Hebrews 9 makes this clear.
G1357
Original:*διόρθωσις
Transliteration:*diorthōsis
Phonetic:*dee-or'-tho-sis
Thayer Definition:
in a physical sense, a making straight, restoring to its natural and normal condition something which in some way protrudes or has got out of line, as broken or misshapen limbsof acts and institutions, reformation
Origin: from a compound of*G1223*and a derivative of*G3717, meaning to straighten thoroughly
TDNT entry: 12:30,7
Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine
Strong's Definition: From a compound of*G1223*and a derivative of*G3717, meaning to*straighten thoroughly*;*rectification, that is, (specifically) the Messianic restoration: - reformation.
We are put back the way were intended to be. Perfect. praise YHWH. Praise Yahshua
right
and if a person tries to combine a rules-focused lifestyle with this weakness, problems arise in the discussing of that lifestyle. In my experience.
if on this forum I say I'm excited about law keeping, then that's just fine with the roots person... if I endorse the theory...
if I move to the practice, and talk about hang gliding on Saturday, then they want to say that's wrong... for everybody...
so that's what led me to start this thread... realizing that roots folks tend to not be able to say much when discussing particular practices... outside of their own.
M
MacBestus
Guest
Hey there Dan... I am sorry I didn't take the bait before with the first hang gliding comment
I think that there is a level of zealousness with people discovering the truth of the testimony of messiah and throwing off the noose of sin worship and counterfeit messiah sun worship as there is with anyone discovering a new thing they hold dear. These can be a bit judgemental and harsh. However it becomes tempered with learning and experience. The truths do not change but as a believer matures their understanding of teaching and sharing is refined to a more patience and understanding methodology.
We are after all a family. He is our Father we are told. In my Personal life I have a LOT of children. There is 25 years between the oldest and the youngest. The parenting style I used on my older children is different than the younger because I grown as a parent. It is not that I teach different values. I do not. It is not that children have changed and so require different teaching and guidance. They haven't. It is that I have grown as a person and a parent. So if you have encountered new HRM that were new to sharing this truth i hope you understand that their teaching or discussion style may not have matured yet. Akin to a less mature parent who whips their child at the slightest excuse or offers "because I SAID SO!" as their only reason. Because they are not confident in articulating the lesson otherwise to their child.
Not an excuse, merely an explanation. And one that goes on in both sides of this foretold rebirth of a faithful small remnant.
I do not think this will ever be the main belief system of Messiahs claimants because the book says it won't be. The Father will harden the hearts of those who love sin (law breaking) and few will find it. Luke spoke of this as well as Paul and John. Messiah talked about it a lot. Verses such as
Matthew 7:15**Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
*16**Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
*17**Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
*18**A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither*can*a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
*19**Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
*20**Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
*21**Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
*22**Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
*23**And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.
Because of his Amazing Grace he offers not only this time to get right, but also the millennial kingdom.
And right in this thread there are people on the other side doing the same harsh scolding towards the HRM.
That being said as a sort of an apology for hasty HRM. Let me finally take the bait on Sabbath.
I will start in Isaiah as this is an end times prophecy book heavily relied on by Messiah. In chapter 56 we read:
1**Thus saith*יהוה, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
*2**Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
*3**Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to*יהוה, speak, saying,*יהוה*hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
*4**For thus saith*יהוה*unto the eunuchs that keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
*5**Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
*6**Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to*יהוה, to serve him, and to love the name of*יהוה, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
*7**Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
*8**The Master*יהוה*which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
Okay so reading this it is apparent this is talking about the time after Peters vision in Acts 7 as All NATIONS have access to the faith. They have a chance at New Jerusalem through Messiahs gift. Obviously post Messianic sacrifice.
Agreed on by all Christian Scholars.
And there it heavily references Sabbath keeping. This lets us as believers in Messiah know we had better understand what that means.
Would you agree?