pug32 my friend, I have dealt with Rom 14 on many occasions, just follow the link in post #434.
QUESTION! (about Christmas and Easter)
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pug32 my friend, I have dealt with Rom 14 on many occasions, just follow the link in post #434.
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kennethcadwell
Guest
Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
The good news is that all those written ordinances of the mosaic law was blotted out, it is only the moral laws of God that still apply to us. The issue comes that people have a hard time seeing this, and want to pick and chose what parts of the mosaic covenant laws they want to follow. Problem with that is the bible says that if you want to follow one of them, you are subject to follow them all.
And then in Galatians it says that if you go by these laws then you are still subject to the curses of the law ( Galatians 3:10 ).
For your edification...
"What Was "Nailed to the Cross"?
Since all scripture is given by the inspiration of God so that Christians should be complete (2 Timothy 3:16-17), it is wise to look at more than one verse to determine what, for example, was nailed to the stake (for details, see What is the Origin of the Cross as a 'Christian' Symbol?), which many believe was a cross.
There is only one only scripture that uses the "nailed it to the cross" expression (AV/NKJ), it is Colossians 2:13-14, in which Paul states,
"And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross".
We will look at what it does and does not say.
First though, let's look at what the last chapter of the last book of the Bible teaches:
"Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city" (Revelation 22:14, NKJV throughout unless otherwise noted).
Since it is only "those who do His commandments...{who} have the right to enter...the city" (Revelation 22:14), the ten commandments could not be "contrary to us." Actually, it is only those who will not keep the ten commandments that are denied access. Revelation specifically shows that those who break one of at least four of the ten commandments will be outside God's city (Revelation 22:15).
So then, if the ten commandments were not "nailed to the cross," what was?
Look again at what the Bible actually says (two translations):
14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross (Colossians 2:14, NKJV)
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.. (Colossians 2:14, NASB)
The handwriting of requirements (often also called the hand-writing of ordinances) or certificate of debt was wiped away and nailed to the stake, which some call a cross (see also What is the Origin of the Cross as a 'Christian' Symbol?).
Which requirements were wiped out?
Please understand that the expression "the handwriting of requirements" (cheirógrafon toís dógmasin) is a Greek legal expression that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--it does not signify the laws that are to be obeyed--only the penalty. It is only through the acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements"). But only the penalty, not the law!
Even some Protestant commentators realize this is so. Notice what Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible states about Colossians 2:14:
Whatever was in force against us is taken out of the way. He has obtained for us a legal discharge from the hand-writing of ordinances, which was against us (v. 14), which may be understood,
1. Of that obligation to punishment in which consists the guilt of sin. The curse of the law is the hand-writing against us, like the hand-writing on Belshazzar's wall. Cursed is every one who continues not in every thing. This was a hand-writing which was against us, and contrary to us; for it threatened our eternal ruin. This was removed when he redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us, Gal 3:13. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.).
In addition, let us look at the Greek term exaleipho translated as "wiped out" in Colossians 2:14:
NT:1813
exaleipho (ex-al-i'-fo); from NT:1537 and NT:218; to smear out, i.e. obliterate (erase tears, figuratively, pardon sin) (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
In other words, exaleipho has to do with wiping out sin. This is also confirmed in Acts 3:19 where Peter also uses the term exaleipho, which is translated as "blotted out" below:
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.
Hence, it is sin and the related penalties that are to be blotted or wiped out. And the penalties could vary from "being unclean to the evening" (Leviticus 11:24-28) to making an offering (Leviticus 5:5-6) to being "cut off from his people" (Leviticus 7:27) to the death penalty (Exodus 31:14).
This is also confirmed elsewhere in the New Testament:
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (Galatians 3:13).
The curse of the law is related to the penalty. And Jesus paid it.
But what about the law of God? Was the law of God to be wiped out? No:
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill (Matthew 5:17)
While some erroneously think that Jesus, for example, did away with the Ten Commandments by how He led His life, that most certainly was not the view of the early Christians who continued to keep them (see also The Ten Commandments and the Early Church).
Furthermore, remember that the Bible clearly teaches that sin is lawlessness:
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. (I John 3:4-5).
Notice that Paul wrote:
Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? (Romans 6:1-2).
Thus the New Testament makes clear that the law of God continues, thus it was not nailed to the cross or somehow wiped out.
The Bible, however, also shows that the requirements of the Levitical priesthood (Hebrews 9:1,6-10) sometimes called the law, which were part of the penalty of sin, were blotted out.
And why?
"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins...By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus once for all" (Hebrews 10:4,10).
Jesus' one sacrifice was and is sufficient--we do not have to sacrifice animals any more!
Another requirement (which is related) would be the death penalty of sin, as "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23) or other specific ceremonial penalties associated with the Old Testament statutes (such as making a sin offering, being put outside the camp, or washing).
For those who wish to look them up, perhaps most of the statutes in the Old Testament are listed in the following chapters: Exodus 20-24; Leviticus 16-27; Numbers 18-19, 27-30, 35-36; and Deuteronomy 12-18." - Dr. Robert Thiel
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kennethcadwell
Guest
The moral laws of God that come from the 10 commandments is what still applies in our life.
The law was our tutor to show us right from wrong, and instruct us on what sin was, so that we could be brought to Christ.
Now that Christ has come, we no longer need that tutor for we should already recognize what sins we have in our life and how much in need of a Savior we need in our life to be forgiven of our contrary ways to God.
We are now under grace and are to walk in the spirit, and by walking in the spirit you are not under the law. For if you go by the works of the law then it is not faith through grace, and you are subject to the whole law including the curses that were in it.
Lord Jesus said that if you would have actually knew the truth behind the law, you would know I required mercy not sacrifice. Then He says there are those who will continue even to today that will still avoid the mercy that He requires, and stick to the sacrificing of other people's lives. Making life and death judgment calls on people, instead of showing mercy.
The law was our tutor to show us right from wrong, and instruct us on what sin was, so that we could be brought to Christ.
Now that Christ has come, we no longer need that tutor for we should already recognize what sins we have in our life and how much in need of a Savior we need in our life to be forgiven of our contrary ways to God.
We are now under grace and are to walk in the spirit, and by walking in the spirit you are not under the law. For if you go by the works of the law then it is not faith through grace, and you are subject to the whole law including the curses that were in it.
Lord Jesus said that if you would have actually knew the truth behind the law, you would know I required mercy not sacrifice. Then He says there are those who will continue even to today that will still avoid the mercy that He requires, and stick to the sacrificing of other people's lives. Making life and death judgment calls on people, instead of showing mercy.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
it is prety simple if people would just open their minds and hearts.
The law was given to be a schoolmaster. Why? Because no one has been able to do what the law requires.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
The law did not say, if you do these 90 % of your lifetime, if you obey 90 % of them, it says you must confirm and obey ALL OF THE WORDS OF THE LAW.
this would include the moral law as well as the rest, everything given to moses.
failure to do so brought a curse. That curse being death, That is the handwriting of ordinances which was against us. Contrary to us, and at odds with us, because no one (but Christ) has fulfilled the just requirement of the law (perfection)
As James said, if you break even the least of the law. your found guilty of the whole law. And thus under that curse.
Jesus removed that curse from us, for He who knew no sin, became sin for us (a lawbreaker) so the righteousness of GOD, (not our own righteousness) may be given to us.
We can not be justified (declared innocent) of breaking Gods law. unless we are redeemed, but the blood of Christ.
I think paul sums it up quite well. The penalty of sin (breaking the law) is death, the GIFT OF GOD is eternal life through Jesus.
. . . all our fathers were under the cloud and all passed through the sea . . . but with many of them God was not well pleased: for thy were overthrown in the wilderness Now these things were our examples to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication as some of them committed and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. - Num. 25:1,2 And Israel abode in Shittim and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods. . . . . and they paid the consequences of worshipping other gods - again, I don't believe anyone is worshipping THE tree nor THE bunny.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
They were given to prove we needed Christ. lets not water down the law to make ourselves appear as special and righteous and worthy.
As paul said, the law came, sin appeared and it caused death.
the wage of sin is death (breaking the law) the GIFT OF GOD is eternal life.
"No you are not worshipping them as gods but the point is God says DON'T apply these methods that pagans used to worship their gods to Him - don't worship me in this way" . . . .
I believe that pagans ACTUALLY worshipped THE THINGS AS THEIR "GOD/GODS". . . . Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods which ye have not known.
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kennethcadwell
Guest
Besides that many of well known biblical scholars have come out and said when debating issues on what Christians are to follow, you should not go by the OT covenants given in the bible. Especially the mosaic covenant that was given to the Jews and not to Christians. We are only to go by the new covenant of our Lord, and what Jesus said to do or not to do now. Acts 15 and Colossians 2 are two chapters that are clear on what still applies and doesn't apply to us now.
“Let no man therefore (judge you) in meat, or in drink,
or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
The word judge here means “to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong”
Which are a shadow (of things to come); but the body (is) of Christ.”
the word (is) was added, this verse should reads
let no one tell you right or wrong about things, but only the body of christ (Jesus church not cathlocs)
but only do what the body of Christ tells us
27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat:
this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying,
This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened.
For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8Therefore let us (keep the feast), not with old leaven,
neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness;
but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
The word judge here means “to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong”
Which are a shadow (of things to come); but the body (is) of Christ.”
the word (is) was added, this verse should reads
let no one tell you right or wrong about things, but only the body of christ (Jesus church not cathlocs)
but only do what the body of Christ tells us
27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat:
this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying,
This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened.
For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8Therefore let us (keep the feast), not with old leaven,
neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness;
but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
It's not a day dedicated to Christ... That's how it's different. Now back to the tree, I recant my statement about turning the tree into a cross.. because I'm " not going to worship Jesus, as pagans worship " but did God not make this tree ? The aroma is not evil, the tree itself is not good or bad, pagans like flowers, am I not to like plants and flowers ?
The subject is "vegetarianism"? The subject is eating meats or eating herbs - as in "clean" and "unclean". One sees meat as "clean" or "unclean" and so just eats herbs to be on the safe side being weak in the faith - so to speak.
i.e. there is nothing unclean of itself . . . Romans 14:14
So one who choses to eat do not despise - treat with contempt - him that chooses not to eat and the one who chooses not to eat should not judge - have an opinion of right or wrong - for one who chooses to eat . . . still talking about what to eat as in "clean" and "unclean"
Who are you to have an opinion of who is right or wrong (judgest) - God has received him and to God he stands or falls (3,4)
The subject is not eating and fasting - One man esteems [same Greek word as "judge"] one day above another, i.e. one man has an opinion regarding a day - some have days they regard has being above another and another man just regards all days the same but however you regard the day - be fully persuaded in your own mind - fully assured in your own mind. However you choose to regard the day - give God thanks - and if you choose to eat meat or whether you choose to eat herbs - give God thanks
I don't see any relation between Romans and Luke.
Why are you judging your brother for what he eats or doesn't eat - for how he judges one day to be above another or every day alike? - goes back to v. 3,4 - God has received him and to God he stands or falls - we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Paul shifts his attention to meat offered to idols - didn't he by revelation just say - I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself? But there are some weak in the faith that still see some things [meats] as being unclean and we are not to destroy that one by convincing him to eat while he believes that it is wrong because to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean to him it is unclean. We are not to cause our brother to stumble nor set anything that in front of them that could cause them to stumble.
Yes it is meat - as in "clean" or "unclean" - . . . there is nothing unclean of itself .. . . v14 The kingdom of God is not in what you eat or drink . . . Matt. 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, his defileth a man.
v18 - For he that in these things serveth Christ - what are "these things" v17 - righteousness, peace, and joyG4213 πόσις posis pos'-is From the alternate of G4095; a drinking (the act), that is, (concretely) a draught: - drink.
Drinking, can be alcoholic or non-alcoholic beverages. Paul was dealing with ascetism and the belief that doing without was somehow a show of character. He dealt with this issue at Colossae also…
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the usingafter the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
The word for meat here is broma, from Thayer’s… G1033 ρῶμα brōma Thayer Definition: 1) that which is eaten, food
Part of Speech: noun neuter A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the base of G977 Citing in TDNT: 1:642, 111
Again, we are dealing with food.
Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
So, it is not dealing with clean and unclean, but with flesh (meat) and wine (drink) that makes a weak brother stumble.
Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
There is no passage in Rom 14 that deals with the Sabbath or clean and unclean meats. The subjects are vegetarianism, fasting and food and drink offered to idols.
Follow after the things which make for peace - righteousness, peace, and joy and things wherewith one may edify another - for disputing over what is "clean" or "unclean" (3) - one day being the same as any other day or one day being above other days (5) - All things indeed are pure but for one weak in the flesh who believes it is not pure - it is evil if he eats [partakes]- we should not eat or drink anything that could cause a brother to stumble or become offended or is made weak - because whatsoever is not of faith is sin . . . .
So if you have a problem with Easter and Christmas - then don't participate - because if you do and it's not done in faith then it will be sin . . . BUT Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
I glorify God everyday... No day is any different to me, God is always first in my life.. Period
I glorify God everyday... No day is any different to me, God is always first in my life.. Period
-It's proven that all pagans worship while either sitting on their tuchus or standing on two feet. So it follows that when we worship, we should be either "standing" on all fours, standing on our heads, or lying down. After all, we don't want to be like them or utilize any of their practices.
-Pagans also tend to do their rituals in groups, so to avoid any confusion, we should avoid doing our worship practices in groups.
-Many pagan rituals incorporate singing, chanting, and/or dancing, so we ought to avoid those things in our worship.
I imagine we could think of some other absurdities as well. It seems rather obvious to me that the intent of the worshiper and the object being worshiped are key. Nobody around these parts of the US of A that I live in would confuse a Christmas service for Saturnalia, sun worship, goat sacrifices, or naked pagan shin digs. Maybe there are some places in the US where people would look in a window at a Christmas service in a church and think to themselves, "I wonder if those are Christians or ancient Greco-Roman-Syrian pagans? It is Dec 25th, so I can't really tell." I just don't know of such a place though.
(not to mention my other points still stand)
-Pagans also tend to do their rituals in groups, so to avoid any confusion, we should avoid doing our worship practices in groups.
-Many pagan rituals incorporate singing, chanting, and/or dancing, so we ought to avoid those things in our worship.
I imagine we could think of some other absurdities as well. It seems rather obvious to me that the intent of the worshiper and the object being worshiped are key. Nobody around these parts of the US of A that I live in would confuse a Christmas service for Saturnalia, sun worship, goat sacrifices, or naked pagan shin digs. Maybe there are some places in the US where people would look in a window at a Christmas service in a church and think to themselves, "I wonder if those are Christians or ancient Greco-Roman-Syrian pagans? It is Dec 25th, so I can't really tell." I just don't know of such a place though.
(not to mention my other points still stand)
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
amen, people do not get pagan was a type of the truth, Man took Gods word, and made their own Gods, thus they resemble Gods truths,
if we are not to worship as they do, we would not be able to worship, because everything we do is like they do, the only difference is WHO WE worship. not HOW we worship.
2 Kings 17:33-34, "They were taught how they might worship Yahweh, but instead they worshiped their own gods according to the customs of the nations from which they had been brought. To this day, they continue to practice their former pagan customs. They do not reverence Yahweh, nor do they follow the statutes, ordinances, Laws, and commandments which Yahweh had commanded the children of Yaaqob, whom He named Israyl."
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kennethcadwell
Guest
You still keep posting stuff from the Abrahamic, palestinian, mosaic, and davidic covenants that were not given to us.
Plus the point we are making is that we are not worshiping these things.
We are under the new covenant of our Lord, and the traditions, customs, and written ordinances of the old covenants do not apply to us.
The Bible speaks of seven different covenants, four of which (Abrahamic, Palestinian, Mosaic, Davidic) God made with the nation of Israel. Of those four, three are unconditional in nature; that is, regardless of Israel's obedience or disobedience, God still will fulfill these covenants with Israel. One of the covenants, the Mosaic Covenant, is conditional in nature. That is, this covenant will bring either blessing or cursing depending on Israel's obedience or disobedience. Three of the covenants (Adamic, Noahic, New) are made between God and mankind in general, and are not limited to the nation of Israel.
Just so I can be clear, what Christian is doing what Israel was doing?
17:16 They abandoned all the commandments of the Lord their God; they made two metal calves and an Asherah pole, bowed down to all the stars in the sky, and worshipedBaal. 17:17 They passed their sons and daughters through the fire,and practiced divination and omen reading. They committed themselves to doing evil in the sight of the Lord and made him angry.
I've missed the services where Ba'al, bulls/calves worship, star-god worship, Asherah tree worship, child sacrifice, divination, and omen reading are practiced. Maybe I've been attending the wrong Christmas services though.
I have lit a candle at a Christmas service, but I have yet to see anyone take the candle and light a child on fire.
Even if you discard most of the Scriptures as worthless, there is learning to be done from them.
Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though Yahweh's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are Yahweh's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."
Psalm 105:6-9, "O seed of Abraham His servant, You children of Yaaqob, His chosen ones! He is Yahweh our Father! His judgments are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, the Law He commanded for a thousand generations; Which He made; ratified, established, with Abraham, and vowed by His oath to Isaac. He confirmed it; let it stand, to Yaaqob for a Law, and to Israyl for an everlasting covenant."
Galations 3:28,29, "Is there not the Yahdai as well as the Greek; Gentile? Is there not the slave as well as the freeman? Is there not the male and the female? For all of you must be in unity in Yahshua Messiah. And if you are in Messiah, then you are a seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise."
Psalm 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O Yahweh! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change the Law that has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."