question about submission

[presidente]

@ Presidente.

I am not insulting any country. I am just stating facts.

Generally, calling a country 'backward' is considered insulting. Calling a country poverty-stricken when one's own country ranks lower on development ratings is ironic.

Indonesia has the world's largest Muslim population, with 88.2% of the population identifying themselves as Muslim (12.7 % of the world's Muslim population)

I've read similar statistics about Indonesians Muslim population. What is your source that says that this is self-reported. Many Christians in Indonesia don't think the stats are accurate. One of them said he knew people in the government who shared with him that they weren't. During this conversation, they said when they'd filled out their forms for their national ID, which tells their religion, they filled out Christian but got a card back that said Muslim. They thought the number (about 8 years ago) was 70 something percent.

India would have been the country with the Lord's largest Muslim population if it hadn't lost Pakistan.

Likewise, India is the world's fourth largest economy and among the fastest growing in the world - but it still ranks lower on human indices because of its treatment meted out to women.

So do you think India ranks lower because it treats women worse than predominantly Muslim Indonesia?

Do you know the details of how the indices are measured, and do you know for sure that it has to do with the treatment of women? Why would the non-equality adjusted index I cited have a lower rank for India than Indonesia based on an equality issue?

HOWEVER, which part of Indonesia your wife comes from, what she believes in etc is not my concern and frankly it should not even come up in discussion.

Out of all the countries in the world, you chose to insult the country my wife cam efrom.

Does your wife know how you talk of her on the internet? Maybe you should allow her to have her own cc account.

I mean, I am sure you can restrict her timings so she won't come in your way of your time on the internet... but at least let her have her own password, eh?

How I talk about her on the Internet? I say plenty of good things about my wife on the Internet. When the Lord did a work in her that related to submission and other issues, I asked her if she minded if I shared the testimony with others, and she was fine with it.

I don't forbid her from having an account on an Internet forum. I don't sit over her shoulder and monitor her Internet time either. She'll spend a bit of time one Facebook, but doesn't care for the idea of participating in forums like this herself.

Did your daddy give you permission to play on the Internet?

 

[Rachel20]

@ Presidente.

I am sorry you seem so insulted by the truth.

My sources for stating some of these facts are from the Pew Research reports and Wikipedia.

I’ll post the links :-

World’s Muslim population more widespread than you might think | Pew Research Center

Islam in Indonesia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Also, the fact that Indonesia is poverty stricken is something that is acknowledged by both the government and the World Bank.

Here are the links to poverty in Indonesia. Despite reducing it’s poverty in 2012-2013, it counts the number of people just about to fall into poverty as 65 million.

Here is a link to a World Bank Report.

Reducing extreme poverty in Indonesia


Here’s a link to the poor-rich gap, despite Indonesia’s growth.


Poverty in Indonesia: Muted music | The Economist


and here is a short Wikipedia article that is a stub but still holds some statistics.

Poverty in Indonesia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These things are just facts, just as much as India has one of the highest populations of poverty in the world.

I am not living in denial of it.


It is fairly logical that if almost 50% of the population is deprived the same economic privileges that the other half enjoys, a country will not be achieving the progress it could.

Perhaps your wife and you must be from some really privileged upper class, crème de la crème of Indonesian society that you might be blind to what is happening to most people there.

I suppose being able to speak English over there must be a huge asset.

 

[Rachel20]

Did your daddy give you permission to play on the Internet?

Play on the internet?

No, I don’t do that… but are you a gamer yourself?

I'm not a poet. Why don't you write us a poem about all the advantages of being unique female?

Wow. You are quite spiteful, aren’t you?

This was in response to PoetMary, but you don’t have to take a jibe at her chatname…

Let me try this...


Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
There is no male nor female in Christ
Now stop being rude.




PS – I am not a great poet, but I would call myself utilitarian in approach

 

[blue_ladybug]

@ Presidente.

I am sorry you seem so insulted by the truth.

My sources for stating some of these facts are from the Pew Research reports and Wikipedia.

I’ll post the links :-

World’s Muslim population more widespread than you might think | Pew Research Center

Islam in Indonesia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Also, the fact that Indonesia is poverty stricken is something that is acknowledged by both the government and the World Bank.

Here are the links to poverty in Indonesia. Despite reducing it’s poverty in 2012-2013, it counts the number of people just about to fall into poverty as 65 million.

Here is a link to a World Bank Report.

Reducing extreme poverty in Indonesia


Here’s a link to poor-rich gap, despite Indonesia’s growth.


Poverty in Indonesia: Muted music | The Economist


and here is a short Wikipedia article that is a stub but still holds some statistics.

Poverty in Indonesia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These things are just facts, just as much as India has one of the highest populations of poverty in the world.

I am not living in denial of it.


It is fairly logical that if almost 50% of the population is deprived the same economic privileges that the other half enjoys, a country will not be achieving the progress it could.

Perhaps your wife and you must be from some really privileged upper class, crème de la crème of Indonesian society that you might be blind to what is happening to most people there.

I suppose being able to speak English over there must be a huge asset.

Rachel, since Wikipedia can be edited by ANYONE, it is NOT a real credible source of information. I could edit it to make it look like Elvis was a little green alien..lol..

 

[Rachel20]

Rachel, since Wikipedia can be edited by ANYONE, it is NOT a real credible source of information. I could edit it to make it look like Elvis was a little green alien..lol..

Blue lady bug, I would consider wikipedia as one of the greatest means of open information on the planet.

You can check the sources they cite for most of their information.

Click on the subscript and you can follow the links. Frankly, wikipedia is a great place to begin any research. If you look at the article posted, it sources it to Pew Research as well.

So just because it is open information, does not mean it has to be discredited.

I did post all available citable sources too ^_^

[ as much as I could ! ]

 

[jsr1221]

Nice to see the Family Forum turning into the Bible forum where people are slinging mud at each other. I guess that's what a Christian family does now?

 

[keepitsimple]

How I talk about her on the Internet? I say plenty of good things about my wife on the Internet. When the Lord did a work in her that related to submission and other issues, I asked her if she minded if I shared the testimony with others, and she was fine with it.

I don't forbid her from having an account on an Internet forum. I don't sit over her shoulder and monitor her Internet time either. She'll spend a bit of time one Facebook, but doesn't care for the idea of participating in forums like this herself.

Did your daddy give you permission to play on the Internet?

This is the terminology that raises the ire of some ... because it implies that in your understanding of submission, this is well within your rights to do so (if you so chose) in the biblical sense. God never asks anything of us that He Himself didn't first do in the person of Jesus Christ. Is it ours to do any less ? If we're not applying this same principle in marriage and on all matters biblical, we have failed to understand God's intent IMO. My wife's thoughts and opinions are greatly valued by me. Many times she has shed light on a matter from a perspective that I had failed to take into account. Does this mean that I, as the husband, reserve the right to overrule her commonsense approach on a given matter ... unless I remain stubborn and become a fool for follies sake ? If our Heavenly Father deemed us in such a loving manner as to say : "Come, let us reason together" for our eternal sake, how much more is it ours to extend the same to our wives whose lives we are to value more than our own ? God commands our love ... but He does not force it. And I'm not suggesting anything to the contrary in your life and your marriage because in this regard, who am I to judge ? I simply point out that our words (and perhaps our intent) can sometimes be misconstrued ... particularly on topics of this nature. For the sake of this discussion, I hope this to be the case.

 

[PoetMary]

This is the terminology that raises the ire of some ... because it implies that in your understanding of submission, this is well within your rights to do so (if you so chose) in the biblical sense. God never asks anything of us that He Himself didn't first do in the person of Jesus Christ. Is it ours to do any less ? If we're not applying this same principle in marriage and on all matters biblical, we have failed to understand God's intent IMO. My wife's thoughts and opinions are greatly valued by me. Many times she has shed light on a matter from a perspective that I had failed to take into account. Does this mean that I, as the husband, reserve the right to overrule her commonsense approach on a given matter ... unless I remain stubborn and become a fool for follies sake ? If our Heavenly Father deemed us in such a loving manner as to say : "Come, let us reason together" for our eternal sake, how much more is it ours to extend the same to our wives whose lives we are to value more than our own ? God commands our love ... but He does not force it. And I'm not suggesting anything to the contrary in your life and your marriage because in this regard, who am I to judge ? I simply point out that our words (and perhaps our intent) can sometimes be misconstrued ... particularly on topics of this nature. For the sake of this discussion, I hope this to be the case.

Honestly, I don't care about the individually negotiated relations between a specific husband and wife within the bounds of their marriage. People have a right to get the kind of relationships they want. Some people probably like to have people tell them what to do because it's removes a layer of responsibility (I was just following orders), and removes a layer of challenge when it comes to making difficult decisions. If a man wants to marry a woman who follows his will entirely without question, have at it. If a woman agrees to that sort of marriage, I might wonder about her underlying philosophy, but it's her personal life and, frankly, none of my business.

What I *do* find interesting, however, is when people speak of womanhood or manhood as a whole. Most of the time what they say is not based on any kind of research or study, but on very limited personal experience. For example, people often say, "women are more emotional." Yeah, well, if you do a little research, the issue is a bit more nuanced than this. However, people have a tendency to globalize their life experiences and make them true for all people everywhere.

Even, for example, the experience of a singular female within a marriage regarding the issue of submission. That is HER experience. Why does it need to be made into some global truth for all married women everywhere? It is possible for two women to struggle with the issue of submission for two completely different reasons...and for those struggles to be resolved in two completely different ways.

As an aside: Why is it that there's never a discussion thread about how men struggle with submission? I have yet to meet a person (barring Jesus) who simply submits to God in all circumstances at all times without question. The issue of a submission is an issue for all Christians.

 

[tourist]

Nice to see the Family Forum turning into the Bible forum where people are slinging mud at each other. I guess that's what a Christian family does now?

Yeah, seems to be a lot of road rage going on these days.

 

[keepitsimple]

Honestly, I don't care about the individually negotiated relations between a specific husband and wife within the bounds of their marriage. People have a right to get the kind of relationships they want. Some people probably like to have people tell them what to do because it's removes a layer of responsibility (I was just following orders), and removes a layer of challenge when it comes to making difficult decisions. If a man wants to marry a woman who follows his will entirely without question, have at it. If a woman agrees to that sort of marriage, I might wonder about her underlying philosophy, but it's her personal life and, frankly, none of my business.

What I *do* find interesting, however, is when people speak of womanhood or manhood as a whole. Most of the time what they say is not based on any kind of research or study, but on very limited personal experience. For example, people often say, "women are more emotional." Yeah, well, if you do a little research, the issue is a bit more nuanced than this. However, people have a tendency to globalize their life experiences and make them true for all people everywhere.

Even, for example, the experience of a singular female within a marriage regarding the issue of submission. That is HER experience. Why does it need to be made into some global truth for all married women everywhere? It is possible for two women to struggle with the issue of submission for two completely different reasons...and for those struggles to be resolved in two completely different ways.

As an aside: Why is it that there's never a discussion thread about how men struggle with submission? I have yet to meet a person (barring Jesus) who simply submits to God in all circumstances at all times without question. The issue of a submission is an issue for all Christians.

Understood Mary. I would hope that most appreciate that this topic does not pertain as to where one ranks on the proverbial biblical food chain. "But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves." This biblical principle applies to all ... and in all situations, including marriage IMO.

 

[presidente]

@ Presidente.

I am sorry you seem so insulted by the truth.

It's really irritating trying to discuss anything with you. Why don't you humble yourself enough to apologize when you say something offensive, instead of sticking to your guns? I feel like I'm talking to an arrogant teenager. This was your MO in a thread last year. It's irritating not only to me, but to other posters.

I said it's generally insulting to call another country 'backward.'

dictionary.reverso.net has an entry for a backward country or society that says,
"A backward country or society does not have modern industries and machines."

That is not true of India or Indonesia. Both countries have modern industry, and a wide gap between rich and poor.

And for your information, I already knew that Indonesia had the largest Islamic population before you posted on this thread. I haven't disagreed with that or the fact that there is poverty in Indonesia and a great disparity between rich and poor in a lot of cases.

Perhaps your wife and you must be from some really privileged upper class, crème de la crème of Indonesian society that you might be blind to what is happening to most people there.

When I mentioned some personal details about my wife, you didn't think they belonged in the thread. She's my wife, my family. If I want to talk about her that's one thing. Smart alec childish comments from others about my wife don't belong in the thread. You need to mature and develop some social skills and a bit of restraint in what you write if you want people to take you seriously as an adult on these threads. Since you brought it up, my wife is not from a rich family. She grew up watching a kiosk after school. I have known some folks raised in rich families in Indonesia. I remember one girl in a Bible study who had a prayer request. Her family's maid was away for the holidays and they had to do their own laundry. I think I said we could pray for her maid, too.

Btw, do you come from a family in the top percentiles of wealth in India?

I suppose being able to speak English over there must be a huge asset.

They teach English in schools and even ojek (hired motorcycle) drivers will speak a few phrases. The ones who apply themselves can really learn it.

 

[presidente]

What I *do* find interesting, however, is when people speak of womanhood or manhood as a whole. Most of the time what they say is not based on any kind of research or study, but on very limited personal experience. For example, people often say, "women are more emotional." Yeah, well, if you do a little research, the issue is a bit more nuanced than this. However, people have a tendency to globalize their life experiences and make them true for all people everywhere.

Your reference to research reminds me of another potential advantage to being a woman. Research shows that women tend to remember in detail whereas men are big picture. I read an academic paper with a good lit review on this (which I can't remember the name or author's of, unfortunately) that cited research about this topic. One example was that women could remember clothing that people wore on a certain occasion whereas men usually couldn't. I found that interesting, because my wife would tell me about someone she met at church, "You know, the lady in the purple dress." I didn't remember what color I wore or what my wife wore. Men do remember details for directions and things like that, and also can recall things if given a prompt. But we generally categorize in a 'big picture' sort of way.

As an aside: Why is it that there's never a discussion thread about how men struggle with submission? I have yet to meet a person (barring Jesus) who simply submits to God in all circumstances at all times without question. The issue of a submission is an issue for all Christians.

One of the reasons submission for wives is such a hot topic is that if you get into a discussion of it on line there, will be posters trying to argue that women don't have to submit to their husbands, or just trying to say it indirectly or downplay the idea. I don't see Christian men arguing that they don't have to love their wives and that they don't submit to Christ. Do men perfectly submit to Christ all the time? No, but Christian men will readily admit that this is wrong in a discussion, unlike the discussion of wives submitting to husbands, at least among modern western folks.

 

[maxwel]

Blue lady bug, I would consider wikipedia as one of the greatest means of open information on the planet.

You can check the sources they cite for most of their information.

Click on the subscript and you can follow the links. Frankly, wikipedia is a great place to begin any research. If you look at the article posted, it sources it to Pew Research as well.

So just because it is open information, does not mean it has to be discredited.

I did post all available citable sources too ^_^

[ as much as I could ! ]

Ummmm....
: )

Wikipedia can still be edited by way too many people - people who don't have to be real experts or have proper credentials, and who can have all kinds of agendas. If you don't think these things are often bogus and PR driven... ummmm... you need to talk to some PR firms.

I agree that Wikipedia is often a great "starting point" for real research.. but I wouldn't regard it any higher than that.
There is a valid reason that colleges don't allow students to cite Wikipedia.

Rachel,
I'm sure you're a very nice person, and I'm not posting this to be contrarian or critical of you personally.
I'm just suggesting that we be cautious.
: )

 

[presidente]

This is the terminology that raises the ire of some ... because it implies that in your understanding of submission, this is well within your rights to do so (if you so chose) in the biblical sense.

I think you are reading something unreasonable into my post. I said I don't forbid my wife to use the Internet. I was responding to Rachel20's post suggesting I give my wife permission to do so. I was responding to her idea, not mine.

Could I forbid my wife from getting an account online? I suppose I could. I believe if I did, she should submit to that. But if I'm overbearing and domineering, I'd have to answer to God for that. I don't think that is how I should treat my wife, even if I believe that if I did, she should still be in submit as the Bible teaches.

If a husband micromanages his wife, won't give her money, gives her a list of things to do, demands that she scrub the cracks between the tiles on the floor in the kitchen every night on her hands and knees before going to bed... all that kind of domineering stuff, I believe he'll answer to God for it. God may not answer his prayers. Wives are to be loved. They aren't there for some guy to dominate while he beats his chest like Tarzan.

Believing that a wife should submit to her husband is not the same thing is believing that a husband should domineer over his wife.

I don't monitor my wife's spending. We have joint checking. I don't manage her schedule. If a man is married to a woman who is a shopaholic who runs up credit card bills or goes out and gets drunk at night, and he monitors what his wife does, I'm not going to judge him for that, but my wife has a lot of wisdom.

I also agree that husbands should listen to their wives, too.

 

[Rachel20]

It's really irritating trying to discuss anything with you. Why don't you humble yourself enough to apologize when you say something offensive, instead of sticking to your guns? I feel like I'm talking to an arrogant teenager. This was your MO in a thread last year. It's irritating not only to me, but to other posters.

Oh, I am really surprised at that

All I was doing was merely stating facts that you seemed to deny and get so mad over. You don't have to be so splenetic!

Maybe you would consider a verse from the Bible about getting irritated ?

Proverbs 12:16
When a stubborn fool is irritated, he shows it immediately, but a sensible person hides the insult.

And for your information, I already knew that Indonesia had the largest Islamic population before you posted on this thread. I haven't disagreed with that or the fact that there is poverty in Indonesia and a great disparity between rich and poor in a lot of cases.

Oh then that’s cool. Chill out.

When I mentioned some personal details about my wife, you didn't think they belonged in the thread. She's my wife, my family… blah blah...not needed..

Btw, do you come from a family in the top percentiles of wealth in India?

I still don’t think it was necessary for you to talk of your wife.

You really didn’t need to leak all your personal information again. My observation that you could probably be from the upper echelons of society was due to the fact that you seemed quite astonished/irritated by my pointing out Indonesia’s conditions.


Also being with that principle, I really don’t think I need to give out my personal details on an Internet message board either.

So sorry, ain’t gonna answer your personal questions.


PS – Also, for anyone else, even if you ask in PM – Nope.

 

[Rachel20]

I was responding to Rachel20's post suggesting I give my wife permission to do so. I was responding to her idea, not mine.

Well, maybe I may have misinterpreted.

I suppose when I came across such a post as the one below, it may have led to such an inchoate thought.

If a wife is as submissive as a slave, I don't see that as a problem.

Of course, like Poet Mary rightly pointed out, every marriage is an individualistic relationship and if two people are fine with something like that, then it's none of our business.


Clearly, I would think a woman who wanted to be as submissive as a slave had deep issues that needed counseling and had a problem that had to be addressed - however that is just me maybe.


Different strokes for different folks!


I shall be taking leave of this discussion.


God bless you all and peace.

^_^

 

[JFSurvivor]

I was talking to someone about this topic today and the word "submit" doesn't mean "submit" at all! It means to be "tenderly devoted to!" It's something with the Hebrew...

 

[psychomom]

Clearly, I would think a woman who wanted to be as submissive as a slave had deep issues that needed counseling and had a problem that had to be addressed - however that is just me maybe.

i finally got this far without too much trouble and had to say:

NO---it ain't just you.

 

[presidente]

Oh, I am really surprised at that

All I was doing was merely stating facts that you seemed to deny and get so mad over.

I'm not angry. I do find your posts a bit annoying, as do many other posters based on their comments.

If you'd actually read my posts carefully, I haven't disagreed with you that Indonesia has poverty and the largest Islamic population. I said it's insulting to describe another country as 'insulting', and I noted that out of all the countries in the world, you singled out my wife's country. And your own country ranks lower on development indexes than Indonesia.

Maybe you would consider a verse from the Bible about getting irritated ?

Proverbs 12:16
When a stubborn fool is irritated, he shows it immediately, but a sensible person hides the insult.

I didn't show my irritation immediately. I waited many months to a year. I interacted with you on a thread some time back.

I notice that you receive several rebukes for the way you interact with others. You should consider this scripture:
Proverbs 29:1
Whoever remains stiff-necked after many rebukes
will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy.
(NIV)

Leviticus 19 also says,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]“‘Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in their guilt.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]“‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.
(NIV)

What is a normal mature response if someone is offended because you call another country 'backward'. How about a simple apology, "I'm sorry if I offended you." No one is arguing with you that there is no poverty in Indonesia or that Indonesia is predominantly Muslim. I lived there for many years, so I know these things better than you do. Your choice of language was offensive. I was very clear about that. Saying I am denying the facts, don't want to hear the truth, etc. is foolish. You were arguing with a straw man and being demeaning about it at the same time.

If you'll notice, the people on the forum usually get along fairly well without quarrelling, even when we disagree.... when you aren't posting. Several people have called you out for your behavior. I've refrained from doing so. Please heed our rebukes. People don't like it when you insult them or twist what they say.

I still don’t think it was necessary for you to talk of your wife.

But do you think it is necessary for you to do so, to call her country 'backward' out of the blue when yours is less developed according to the UN? Is it necessary for you to speculate about her economic background?

You really didn’t need to leak all your personal information again. My observation that you could probably be from the upper echelons of society was due to the fact that you seemed quite astonished/irritated by my pointing out Indonesia’s conditions.

No, I told you your language to describe Indonesia was insulting. I did not disagree with you about Indonesia having poverty, disparity between rich and poor, or an Islamic population. I've spent many years living and working there. I've traveled to a few different islands. I've slept on the floor in a mountain village and I've been to shacks in the city.

Also being with that principle, I really don’t think I need to give out my personal details on an Internet message board either.

It's up to you. But I can imagine that you were born with a proverbial silver spoon in your mouth. I'm using a username, so I'm fairly anonymous.

So sorry, ain’t gonna answer your personal questions.

We wouldn't want to tip off any of the international spy agencies of your identity. If you don't want people to talk about your personal details, then you may not want to offer conjecture about the personal details of them their loved ones. I don't mind talking about these things, but I don't like people who take an antagonistic stance in the discussion doing so in a demeaning way.

 

[thisgirl]

@ Presidente.

I am not insulting any country. I am just stating facts. Indonesia has the world's largest Muslim population, with 88.2% of the population identifying themselves as Muslim (12.7 % of the world's Muslim population)

If you like the culture and stuff, good for you.

Likewise, India is the world's fourth largest economy and among the fastest growing in the world - but it still ranks lower on human indices because of its treatment meted out to women.

It just reiterates my point that no country which mistreats it's women or doesn't endorse equality for it's women truly progresses.

Facts are facts. I have no issues with talking about the truth, whether it is my own country or some other.

HOWEVER, which part of Indonesia your wife comes from, what she believes in etc is not my concern and frankly it should not even come up in discussion.

Does your wife know how you talk of her on the internet? Maybe you should allow her to have her own cc account.

I mean, I am sure you can restrict her timings so she won't come in your way of your time on the internet... but at least let her have her own password, eh?

Wow maybe reread this and re word what you've just said thinking about the whole speaking the truth in love thing we are called to do as believers.