Question about women in the church.

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Snackersmom

Senior Member
May 10, 2011
1,653
267
83
#61
The following explanation focuses on 1Timothy _2:11 &12 . .... It will also include 1Corinthians_ 14:34&35. ... Even though ...there are several reasons showing that 1Co 14:34 & 35... was a scribal interpolation... However, we must consider there is a slim chance that it was God breathed .... and as such.... the primary point of both ....will be covered in the explanation of 1Timothy.

I understand the emphatic stand that people take regarding this subject. But it is important to keep 1Timothy within the context of which was written. .... Culture was different... but the principle of the statement still remains.
.

I Timothy is a pastoral epistle written to the leadership in the church (“church” meaning called of God “the body of Christ” ….not a physical structure.) Therefore, when reading this book... keep in mind “who” it is addressing, and “why”. We cannot take a few verses out of their context and make them a general application to all women within the body of Christ....that’s absurd!.... Context and to whom scriptures are addressed are primary discernments in biblical study.
.
In 1 Timothy_2:9-15 ... the Word is dealing with the “wives” of the men of God
The word “woman” should read “wives” as we read through this section (as noted in 1Ti 3:1&2).
Realizing that..... should be enough to shut the door this subject ...as it is plainly stated also in 1Cor 14 .................so you could stop right here.

Or you can read my inner-verse dribble as I go on....

1Ti 2:11 Let the woman (wives) learn in silence with all subjection.

learn” = to be informed .... to understand, to learn by study and observation.

silence” (Greek) = hesuchia... meaning – inner awareness, a quietness, tranquility. It’s just the opposite of vociferous.

There is a time for a person to keep quiet and a time to speak. The context here is talking about “wives of the men of God”. With that inner awareness...they will know when that time and palace is.

with all subjection = submission by loving obedience.


When the woman decided to marry the man, she made the decision that the man would be the head of her......like God is the head of the man. The wife has to become aware of the inner awareness of her man ....just as the man is with God.
This is not a subservient roll of control .... but rather it’s by loving obedience, by proper arrangement, and deliberate decision. It means there is 100% input from both parties, but the man (as the head of the household) would make the final decisions on any matters.


1Ti 2:12 But I suffer = (direct or instruct) not a “woman” (wife) to teach, nor to usurp authority over the “man” husband, but to be in silence.

teach is the Greek word didaske = to debate.
(didaske) ....We get our word “teacher” from this Greek word. It’s used in the academic realm of a didactic course [a teaching course] But here is the beauty of this scripture.

In our teaching methods (typically) there is no debate..... But in the old Hebrew or the synagogue operation, anytime a teacher teaches.... anybody who wants to get up and question him can do so. God says - I instruct the wife not to debate in public with her man (who represents the word of God.) .... You can obviously see where this would belittle the man, showing great disrespect to the man of God, and the Word of God. Which ultimately ....it always comes down to respect of the Word of God... decently and in order]

to “usurp authority over = to exercise power over, domineer.

but to be in “silencesame word as in verse 11 (hesuchia) “the inner awareness”.



Both the roll of the Man and the Woman should be kept in the perspective of the Word. (marriage relationship, and leadership relationship) ...This is dealing with “wives” in the eastern culture.... and the setting (at that time) that took place.

The setting is where men would sit on one side and women on the other of the room after the teaching. The men would discuss/debate what was taught. [remember that word “didaske”... to debate]

Interruptions were obviously taking place in fellowships during that time (from the wives) to necessitate God... having this written.

Remember... this is not a large church structure.... keep in mind the times. The “churches” (structures) were the group settings and were primarily in home fellowships ....as dictated in the book of Acts. ..... All that God was saying was .....hold your opinion/discussion until you get home or after others have left.

Neither of these accounts In 1Timothy and 1Corinthians applies to “all” women, but as you can see it did apply to these specific settings and still applies to similar settings for obvious reasons.

Can woman teach the Word …absolutely! Can married woman teach the Word….. absolutely …→ within the confines of the written Word.....
If it’s a married woman... it is done with the “proper arrangement” between a husband and wife.

As for Women teaching the Church (body of believers) ....there is nothing in the Word that disallows an unmarried woman from that...... In fact, just the contrary. ....As there are several areas in the Word (both OT & NT) that show women teaching. Which contradict these verses in 1Timbo ....and 1 Cor..... > if it were to apply to all women.<

There is no restriction (biblically) on an unmarried woman who desires to teach the Word. And the restrictions on a married woman are by proper arrangement between a husband and a wife.

This was a lengthy post and many probably skipped over it, but I appreciate you breaking it down and I believe you are correct that the passage was referring to wives teaching/debating or rebuking their husbands and other men in a church setting.

I do not believe that God requires me to submit to the authority of every Christian man simply because he is Christian and male; it is clear that not all Christian males agree, so how could I submit to all of them? :rolleyes:

If I marry I will submit to my husband. Until then, Christ is my spiritual head.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,733
8,603
113
#62
I meant, where in the NT is your doctrine taught?
The utter silence of any NT reference to female Pastors leading a congregation is deafening.

Some goes for the last 1800 years in the Church.

Same goes from Moses to John the Baptist in the old economy.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,890
1,084
113
Oregon
#63
.
The Christian version of gender hierarchy is based primarily upon origin and
primogeniture irrespective of marriage and/or family.

For example: the man was created in the image of God, whereas the woman
was created in the image of the man, viz: the man was a discrete specimen
created with material taken from the Earth's soil, whereas the woman was
constructed with material taken from the man's body, thus she was the flip
side of the same coin instead of made a whole other coin of her own, viz: he
was the senior of the two on the one coin and she the junior, viz: the man
and the woman weren't siblings: their relationship was more along the lines
of a father and daughter than brother and sister.

* Women will never be truly equal with men except artificially by means of
man-made statutes because the divine scheme of things is a fixed frozen
sea, i.e. I doubt God has any plans to go back and do it over so as to
appease progressive women's complaints about their station in life.

FAQ: Don't Christians believe in the separation of Church and State?

REPLY: Whereas the Bill Of Rights prevents the US Government from
establishing a nationwide religion to which all US citizens must conform; the
Bill does not prohibit US citizens from incorporating a religion's spiritual
values in their personal political philosophies.
_
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,227
2,205
113
#64
I meant, where in the NT is your doctrine taught?
That's just it. Damnable heresies, a.k.a false doctrines have deep roots (2Peter2:1) that are difficult to just 'pull up' like freshly sprouted weeds (although there are plenty of those too). Have you ever tried to pull up the larger patches of dandelions? It just isn't going be successful without a shovel, and if there is any root left at along, it'll only spring back up again in short time (let alone one that's been left to flourish as big as a sycamore).
Even the HELPS Word-studies has a *doctrinally manipulative tendency to it.

For example:
4245 presbýteros – properly, a mature man having seasoned judgment (experience); an elder.

The NT specifies elders are men. (The feminine singular, presbytera, never occurs in the Bible.)

[The feminine plural, presbyteras, occurs in 1 Tim 5:2. *It refers to aged women, i.e. not women with an official church office or title.]

*The HELPS app, is derived from the work of the Moody Bible Institute (It was founded by evangelist and businessman Dwight Lyman Moody in 1886. Historically, MBI has maintained positions that have identified it as non-charismatic, dispensational, and generally Calvinistic.[4] wikipedia: MBI) that operates out of Chicago, ILL (est.), Spokane, Washington, and Plymouth, Michigan....but...well, everyone has seen the fruit that's come out of Chicago :unsure: 8[
And so, although it is a useful tool in word studies (it is "a" helper but it is not, in any way, THE Holy Spirit) I am careful to proceed on the side of caution in considering the tool as 'infallible.'
 

2ndTimeIsTheCharm

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2023
1,936
1,132
113
#65
I meant, where in the NT is your doctrine taught?

You've read Paul's epistles, all of which are in the NT and is friends with Aquila and Priscilla (note he addresses Aquila first in his letters unlike the accounts that others wrote in the NT). Paul spells out the duties of leaders in the church, all of which are assigned to MEN. So where is your false doctrine in the NT where it says women can have authority over and teach men in matters of church leadership?

Remember, Satan rebelled because he wanted God's authority and position for himself. Now he's trying to reverse the order between men and women to get them to disobey God's rules about that, by saying the Bible didn't really mean what it said.

Choose God and His rules over Satan and the culture of this day and age. Godly Christian men, under the Lord's guidance and encouragement are good, wise leaders who don't abuse those under their care. At the same time, don't let Satan make you a weak, pansy soft man who abandon their responsibilities as leaders to defer to women's leadership.


🍄
 

Aussie52

Active member
Aug 31, 2022
159
150
43
#66
All I read is misogyny dressed in religious garb!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#67
Why are people just letting this happen?
Because the pastor will refuse to change his apostasy. So they will simply have to leave that church, and if they go to another church they will find the same departure from the Bible. So where will they go. At the same time by staying put they are encouraging the apostasy. And you are absolutely correct. Women have no business preaching to and/or teaching the whole church. God has forbidden them doing so for His own good reasons.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#68
All I read is misogyny dressed in religious garb!
Really Aussie52? Misogyny in the Word of God? So you don't really believe that the Bible is God's written and divinely revealed Word. You must be just another Feminist, since they love to use that term whenever things don't suit them. "Misogyny", "patriarchy" etc. Of course, Feminist females want to be MORE EQUAL than males.
 
Apr 24, 2021
87
53
18
Scotland
#69
I was demonstrating being quiet and holding my peace, even while speaking in a congregation of believers.

There are as many silly women as there are foolish men that shouldn't be preaching the word of God if they don't rightly understand it.

Are you asking this question because you are, indeed, genuinely, considering that you might not actually seeing the truth? or are you asking only for reinforcement of your position about it, so you feel better in continuing to discredit actual women given bonafide authority from Him which hold all authority, and He has every right dole that out as He sees fit, to handle the word of God?
I'm trying to get to the truth.

After reading the scripture it seemed pretty clear, but a lot of people say Paul was speaking to a certain church congregation and most churches I've been to have women preaching and teaching.

Wouldn't the scripture been a little clearer if it was only intended for a certain group?
 

Aussie52

Active member
Aug 31, 2022
159
150
43
#70
Really Aussie52? Misogyny in the Word of God? So you don't really believe that the Bible is God's written and divinely revealed Word. You must be just another Feminist, since they love to use that term whenever things don't suit them. "Misogyny", "patriarchy" etc. Of course, Feminist females want to be MORE EQUAL than males.
"Sticks and stones..........."
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,412
3,672
113
#71
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables." 2 Timothy 4:4
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,733
8,603
113
#72
.
The Christian version of gender hierarchy is based primarily upon origin and
primogeniture irrespective of marriage and/or family.


For example: the man was created in the image of God, whereas the woman
was created in the image of the man, viz: the man was a discrete specimen
created with material taken from the Earth's soil, whereas the woman was
constructed with material taken from the man's body, thus she was the flip
side of the same coin instead of made a whole other coin of her own, viz: he
was the senior of the two on the one coin and she the junior, viz: the man
and the woman weren't siblings: their relationship was more along the lines
of a father and daughter than brother and sister.


* Women will never be truly equal with men except artificially by means of
man-made statutes because the divine scheme of things is a fixed frozen
sea, i.e. I doubt God has any plans to go back and do it over so as to
appease progressive women's complaints about their station in life.


FAQ: Don't Christians believe in the separation of Church and State?

REPLY: Whereas the Bill Of Rights prevents the US Government from
establishing a nationwide religion to which all US citizens must conform; the
Bill does not prohibit US citizens from incorporating a religion's spiritual
values in their personal political philosophies.
_
Yup. God takes much more than mere umbrage at this predicament.
A view more like disastrous.

Isa 3:12
As for My people, children are their oppressors,
And women rule over them.
O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err,
And destroy the way of your paths.”
 

Derobo

Active member
Sep 28, 2024
109
100
28
#73
All I read is misogyny dressed in religious garb!
You are talking to Jesus who didn't choose 1 woman out of the 12 disciples he choose.
you are talking to the first 1800 years of church history that didn't ordain a single woman in all those years.
you are calling it misogony.
By saying such you have a problem with Jesus and the church.
we already know the roles of man and woman and none can change this.
God bless you
 

Derobo

Active member
Sep 28, 2024
109
100
28
#74
Really Aussie52? Misogyny in the Word of God? So you don't really believe that the Bible is God's written and divinely revealed Word. You must be just another Feminist, since they love to use that term whenever things don't suit them. "Misogyny", "patriarchy" etc. Of course, Feminist females want to be MORE EQUAL than males.
im seriously wondering the same.
this same spirit is all over the world now...
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,733
8,603
113
#75
Really Aussie52? Misogyny in the Word of God? So you don't really believe that the Bible is God's written and divinely revealed Word. You must be just another Feminist, since they love to use that term whenever things don't suit them. "Misogyny", "patriarchy" etc. Of course, Feminist females want to be MORE EQUAL than males.
Sign of the times man. Same goes for the women pastors thing.
 

Derobo

Active member
Sep 28, 2024
109
100
28
#76
Yup. God takes much more than mere umbrage at this predicament.
A view more like disastrous.

Isa 3:12
As for My people, children are their oppressors,
And women rule over them.
O My people! Those who lead you cause you to err,
And destroy the way of your paths.”
amazing bible verse thank you!!!
 

Derobo

Active member
Sep 28, 2024
109
100
28
#77
Let us all love the truth brothers and sisters, let us put away our own experiences with the world, and put away our own feelings, let us do what God has commanded and what he deems as good.
let us not twist the truth, let us have fear of God.

Pro 1:29 Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD

Pro 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the holy isunderstanding.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,227
2,205
113
#78
I'm trying to get to the truth.

After reading the scripture it seemed pretty clear, but a lot of people say Paul was speaking to a certain church congregation and most churches I've been to have women preaching and teaching.

Wouldn't the scripture been a little clearer if it was only intended for a certain group?
How clear can you get if sometimes (an original) word means woman and other times it means wife? or sometimes it means deacon and other times it means servant? and at times supposedly only depending on if it is referring to a male or female? and especially if it is left to who happens to have acquired to authority (i.e. translation authorized by king james as opposed to being authorized by queen mary).
Is it clear that "ruling over" and is exactly the same as "having authority"? Scripture tells us that the people noticed that Jesus spoke as one having authority. Does that translate that He was authorized to change the meaning of scripture according to His personal preferences? Those that hold to the position that women cannot have authority have their own preferences toward that interpretation and just as much read it as you like and claim scriptural backup but more, accurately it is only a translational backup.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,227
2,205
113
#79
You are talking to Jesus who didn't choose 1 woman out of the 12 disciples he choose.
Considering the time of the Holy Spirit had not yet arrive and Jesus, as man could/would not 'enter into' a woman to teach her all things until the time of Pentecost had come, then this decision become more clear and glaringly prudent for that particular time.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,227
2,205
113
#80
I would like to example the translational differences between the common English words, equality and equity, also, which are too easily obfuscated. Some equate these two words, but although they are related, there is a definite nuance to differentiate them. One means the same in nature and the other the same in value.