Real Italian Pizza

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M

MoonCresta

Guest
#1
#1
Ok - I may be setting myself up for a giant disappointment, but this is worth the risk.

IN MY opinion, there is no better food I've ever had than the pizza I would eat in restaurants around northern Italy, (around Venice and Pordenone). One day, when all this mess is done and Christ tarries, I'm flying back there just to have the pizza!

I would love to have a pizza recipe from someone who has been there, knows what I'm talking about, and knows what they're doing in this regard.
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#3
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
282
83
#3
Magenta said:
:)
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Oh, they're nice indeed. Recall the potato pizza I ate in Rome once. Unforgettable - and undoable. The lady is very correct about US style, and basically most non-Italian, pizzas.
 
M

MoonCresta

Guest
#4
#4
Magenta said:
:)
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My gosh, my wife and I were in tears just seeing the expression on the girls face when she bit into the Italian pizza. To anyone reading this - it is so worth the flight! My gosh yes!!
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#5
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
282
83
#5
MoonCresta said:
My gosh, my wife and I were in tears just seeing the expression on the girls face when she bit into the Italian pizza. To anyone reading this - it is so worth the flight! My gosh yes!!
Click to expand...
Itr's all in the bread, ain't it? Ye gotta have good raw ingridients, make that perfect blend and get the right thickness and crispyness - not too crispy. Most "pizzas" out there in the shops are really only warm sandwiches (although sometimes taste nice) in comparision.
 
M

MoonCresta

Guest
#6
#6
tribesman said:
Itr's all in the bread, ain't it? Ye gotta have good raw ingridients, make that perfect blend and get the right thickness and crispyness - not too crispy. Most "pizzas" out there in the shops are really only warm sandwiches (although sometimes taste nice) in comparision.
Click to expand...
It's all in the bread - yes, and the oven. I'd love to get enough work done around my place to be able to think seriously about building a brick oven outside - I have the masonry skills, but not enough time right now! Wonder if you can order pizza dough from Italy?
 
tribesman

tribesman

Senior Member
#7
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
282
83
#7
MoonCresta said:
It's all in the bread - yes, and the oven. I'd love to get enough work done around my place to be able to think seriously about building a brick oven outside - I have the masonry skills, but not enough time right now! Wonder if you can order pizza dough from Italy?
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Prolly you can. Not heard of people doing such though and it's far off if you're in the US. DeLallo is quiet popular I'd think. Easy to use too. However not totally sugar-free as far as I know.
 
M

MoonCresta

Guest
#8
#8
tribesman said:
Prolly you can. Not heard of people doing such though and it's far off if you're in the US. DeLallo is quiet popular I'd think. Easy to use too. However not totally sugar-free as far as I know.
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Just went to the DeLallo web site - had not heard of them before - we will definitely try them! Thanks so much!
 
shittim

shittim

Senior Member
#9
Dec 16, 2016
13,808
7,785
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#9
Flour, salt, yeast, water, how can we not get that right here? I know when I put a touch of salt on an apple, the Himalayan salt has so much MORE effect without the American additives to salt, and I hear Celtic Salt is the go to salt for many. what type olive oil for the dough? Do we really get true olive oil anyway?
I have heard all of King Arthur Flour is made with hard wheat, not soft wheat, and that a large majority of our fine American Hard Red wheat goes to Italy, perhaps that is a difference.
Blessings
 
M

MoonCresta

Guest
#10
#10
Hey - thanks for responding. My wife and I are going to make a pilgrimage to Pittsburg to visit the DeLallo store over there next month - not that far from us. You know, I've got a couple of acres I'm not doing anything with - always wanted to raise some wheat - wonder how much trouble it is to grind your own wheat! That would be cool!
 
JohnDB

JohnDB

Well-known member
#11
Jan 16, 2021
6,241
2,537
113
#11
Pizza dough is best when it's made with high gluten flour (above 14% protein)
A little oil, sugar and salt...but it needs to be rather lean on the oil.

Bread flour (like King Arthur) is ok...but it just isn't chewy enough for most people.

I've heard of using egg whites (no yolks) to help increase the protein content in the dough for a harder crust. I've done it for crusty breads but not pizza. All purpose flour has the same amount of protein as semolina flour (used to make pasta) but the quality of the gluten in semolina is far better for the stretching. But high gluten breath flour can be as high as 17% or more depending upon a host of factors. I prefer bleached, enriched, and bromated for the looks and rise.
Superlative was the brand name I used most often. The owner complained about it's cost and I told him that if he could find a replacement that was equal specifications I'd try it...but if it failed he was going to have to help me make the next batch that day. I wouldn't have the time. So we never found a cheaper replacement. (50 lb bags)

That flame fired oven is what makes a pizza really good. It can be wood, coal or natural gas...but that unrelenting rock surface is definitely needed for that wonderful crust.

NY and Chicago has that great coal fired pizza...tastes like petroleum and it takes a bit of getting used to...but it isn't bad at all....I kinda miss those pies.

California got the whole wood fired oven thing going. Hardwoods do better than evergreen woods do...so I have no idea how they got going with that.

But either one is good in it's own right.

Getting the oven right is the difficult part. (If doing it yourself) I'm not a mortar person (great grandfather's were as well as grandpa...but I never learned it)

I've worked with a couple of different ones and some are definitely better than others with larger even heat spots than the other ones.
Some are bad about burning one side but leaving the other side almost raw.

(I was cooking professionally when the craze for gourmet pizza was just getting started... I stopped just after that)

Flour/wheat is a commodity these days...bought and sold by the boxcar by the purveyors of it...ConAgra is one I remember off the top of my head...there are others but their names are escaping me. Most places like Pillsbury, Gold Medal and Kellogg's use contracts for their grain needs. Just like Perdue uses contracts for their chickens. Meaning they provide the chicks and feed...the farmers just provide the farm. Same thing for wheat. They provide seed, fertilizers and pesticides and then pay for the grain when received. (Below market but market based and still profitable)

I've seen a few independent farmers growing wheat...I'm guessing that the co-op rents the farm implements needed to harvest. Never tried grinding wheat but I doubt it is difficult. A lot of work maybe but not difficult.
 
shittim

shittim

Senior Member
#12
Dec 16, 2016
13,808
7,785
113
#12
I have a Corona grain mill, it is too much work!
 
M

MoonCresta

Guest
#13
#13
JohnDB said:
Pizza dough is best when it's made with high gluten flour (above 14% protein)
A little oil, sugar and salt...but it needs to be rather lean on the oil.

Bread flour (like King Arthur) is ok...but it just isn't chewy enough for most people.

I've heard of using egg whites (no yolks) to help increase the protein content in the dough for a harder crust. I've done it for crusty breads but not pizza. All purpose flour has the same amount of protein as semolina flour (used to make pasta) but the quality of the gluten in semolina is far better for the stretching. But high gluten breath flour can be as high as 17% or more depending upon a host of factors. I prefer bleached, enriched, and bromated for the looks and rise.
Superlative was the brand name I used most often. The owner complained about it's cost and I told him that if he could find a replacement that was equal specifications I'd try it...but if it failed he was going to have to help me make the next batch that day. I wouldn't have the time. So we never found a cheaper replacement. (50 lb bags)

That flame fired oven is what makes a pizza really good. It can be wood, coal or natural gas...but that unrelenting rock surface is definitely needed for that wonderful crust.

NY and Chicago has that great coal fired pizza...tastes like petroleum and it takes a bit of getting used to...but it isn't bad at all....I kinda miss those pies.

California got the whole wood fired oven thing going. Hardwoods do better than evergreen woods do...so I have no idea how they got going with that.

But either one is good in it's own right.

Getting the oven right is the difficult part. (If doing it yourself) I'm not a mortar person (great grandfather's were as well as grandpa...but I never learned it)

I've worked with a couple of different ones and some are definitely better than others with larger even heat spots than the other ones.
Some are bad about burning one side but leaving the other side almost raw.

(I was cooking professionally when the craze for gourmet pizza was just getting started... I stopped just after that)

Flour/wheat is a commodity these days...bought and sold by the boxcar by the purveyors of it...ConAgra is one I remember off the top of my head...there are others but their names are escaping me. Most places like Pillsbury, Gold Medal and Kellogg's use contracts for their grain needs. Just like Perdue uses contracts for their chickens. Meaning they provide the chicks and feed...the farmers just provide the farm. Same thing for wheat. They provide seed, fertilizers and pesticides and then pay for the grain when received. (Below market but market based and still profitable)

I've seen a few independent farmers growing wheat...I'm guessing that the co-op rents the farm implements needed to harvest. Never tried grinding wheat but I doubt it is difficult. A lot of work maybe but not difficult.
Click to expand...
Hey John - really appreciate your input! I just remembered the search word I've been trying to think of for the last few days. Years ago the magazine Smithsonian ran an article on "Heritage Wheat". Just did a google search on it and have found one good place, I think, to order seeds from - growseed.org. As that website says, "The Heritage Grain Conservancy is a farmer-owned cooperative to collect, conserve and restore delicious world heritage grains on the verge of extinction." It is expensive to order, but I think I'd like to try that. Actually, I'm seeing a whole bunch of heritage wheat sites, now. Hmm. Very interesting.

Anyway, you have a great day!
 
shittim

shittim

Senior Member
#15
Dec 16, 2016
13,808
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#15
I see King Arthur Flour is putting the % of gluten on the front of the package although I don't see any that high, perhaps add gluten to it? I thought it was about resting the dough, thank you friend.
 
JohnDB

JohnDB

Well-known member
#16
Jan 16, 2021
6,241
2,537
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#16
shittim said:
I see King Arthur Flour is putting the % of gluten on the front of the package although I don't see any that high, perhaps add gluten to it? I thought it was about resting the dough, thank you friend.
Click to expand...
High gluten bread flour isn't available in the local grocery stores. For that stuff you will need a restaurant supply store or something along those lines.

Sam's club or Costco might have a bag...just don't expect it to be a small one. 50 lb bags of flour are pretty standard. The grocery stores usually carry 5 lb bags. But...it's great if you make a lot of bread. I have a recipe that uses 3lbs at a batch. It makes 3 loaves at a time. And when you have a few munchers running around it still doesn't last long. (Something about the smell of fresh baked bread draws them like flies)

And when I do pizza crusts I use a recipe that uses about half that amount of the flour...but then I proof, form and pre-bake the crusts and freeze them.
Then pull them out later as I wish. (Makes like 8-10 pizza shells)
 
Mak33

Mak33

Well-known member
#18
Nov 12, 2019
381
374
63
#18
MoonCresta said:
Ok - I may be setting myself up for a giant disappointment, but this is worth the risk.

IN MY opinion, there is no better food I've ever had than the pizza I would eat in restaurants around northern Italy, (around Venice and Pordenone). One day, when all this mess is done and Christ tarries, I'm flying back there just to have the pizza!

I would love to have a pizza recipe from someone who has been there, knows what I'm talking about, and knows what they're doing in this regard.
Click to expand...
It's the best! Nothing compares to their fresh Italian ingredients, Pizza, Pasta, Bruschetta! ❤️❤️❤️
 
B

BreatheFocusBet

Active member
#19
Oct 6, 2022
261
151
43
#19
JohnDB said:
But high gluten breath flour can be as high as 17% or more depending upon a host of factors. I prefer bleached, enriched, and bromated for the looks and rise.
Click to expand...
I remember seeing this article from King Arthur Baking about potassium bromate and wanted to share.

Bromate has been banned in numerous countries, including the United Kingdom in 1990 and Canada in 1994. In addition, in 1991, California declared bromate a carcinogen under the state's Proposition 65. As such, baked goods sold in California have to bear a store-level cancer warning if they contain more than a certain level of bromate. As a result, most California bakers have switched to bromate-free processes.

... We have always felt that baking is much better when you use quality ingredients, and given all of the health risks involved with the use of bromates in bread production, the most important of those ingredients is an unbromated flour.
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More info here

https://cfpub.epa.gov/ncea/iris/iris_documents/documents/toxreviews/1002tr.pdf

Use discernment with the links
 
JohnDB

JohnDB

Well-known member
#20
Jan 16, 2021
6,241
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#20
BreatheFocusBet said:
I remember seeing this article from King Arthur Baking about potassium bromate and wanted to share.



More info here

https://cfpub.epa.gov/ncea/iris/iris_documents/documents/toxreviews/1002tr.pdf

Use discernment with the links
Click to expand...
Yeah....but there's such a small amount in the flour that I use it's negligible....well inside the safety limits.

The butter, salt, and other things I put in bread should be of a much higher concern if you are worried about cancer.

Most bakers today are adding ascorbic acid these days in some form. (Vitamin C) as it does the same thing as Bromide. Except ascorbic acid assists with the formation and strength of the gluten...better trapping the gas from the yeast and allowing for rougher treatment of the dough by unskilled hands.

Some people have dough hands and some don't. I've been making scratch bread since I was a wee lad....now as a grumpy old man I just knock it out and don't worry about it too much.
 
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