Reconciled to God while enemies !

[Roger316]

You sound foolish

When we discuss ideas here, I find it really helpful when we stay focused on the arguments themselves rather than on the people making them. It keeps the conversation clear and makes it easier for all of us to learn from one another.

I’m always glad to be corrected or challenged—just on the content, not on my character. That way we can sharpen each other without things getting personal.

 

[Roger316]

The gospel is foolishness to many

Christ reconciles us to God in fact Rom 5:10 for 1000th time

I agree with you that what Christ accomplished in His death is real, objective reconciliation — that’s the part God completed once‑for‑all.

The only distinction I’m making is that the *personal* side of reconciliation — the moment someone actually enters that restored relationship — doesn’t happen at the cross itself. That happens when a person is born again and responds to what Christ already accomplished.

So I’m not denying the reality of what Christ did; I’m just keeping the objective act and the subjective reception in their proper places.

 

[brightfame52]

Four Key Verses Showing Peter’s Focus Is *Suffering*, Not *Salvation*

You wasting your time with that, its both

 

[brightfame52]

If he caused you to repent, did you actually repent?

Yeah, He caused it duh Thats what happens when He gives you repentance, it causes YOU to repent. I showed you a scripture which you probably ignored Jer 31:19

Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

Who is the Prophet giving credit to for his repentance ?

 

[brightfame52]

What do you mean he caused it?

Look up the words God caused it on AI. Ask it, this isnt a 3rd grade class is it

 

[Roger316]

I didnt say that, false misrepresentation

I was responding to what you said here.

Thats false, God via Paul is commanding and causing the subjective reconciliation by the word. by believing what is already true.

I agree that God uses His word to bring people to faith. But that’s exactly why Paul distinguishes between what God has already done in Christ and what still needs to happen in the person.

If subjective reconciliation were already true at the cross, Paul wouldn’t need to exhort anyone to “be reconciled to God.” He would simply tell them to *believe* they already are. But he doesn’t say that — he gives an imperative, not an announcement.

That’s why I’m keeping the categories clear: the objective reconciliation happened at the cross; the subjective reconciliation happens when a person actually turns to God. Believing doesn’t make it true — believing is how someone enters into what Christ has already made possible.

 

[brightfame52]

@Roger316

When we discuss ideas here, I find it really helpful when we stay focused on the arguments themselves rather than on the people making them. It keeps the conversation clear and makes it easier for all of us to learn from one another.

I’m always glad to be corrected or challenged—just on the content, not on my character. That way we can sharpen each other without things getting personal.

Dont take it personal

 

[brightfame52]

I agree with you that what Christ accomplished in His death is real, objective reconciliation

Okay.. That entails non imputation of sin 2 Cor 5:19 so the elect are legally saved from sin and justified by His death, for real. Now what is the promise to the reconciled in Rom 5:10 ? Thats Gods sre word of promise.

 

[brightfame52]

The only distinction I’m making is that the *personal* side of reconciliation — the moment someone actually enters that restored relationship — doesn’t happen at the cross itself. That happens when a person is born again and responds to what Christ already accomplished.

Thats subjective reconciliation which Christ is also responsible for, that's my point. Christ is responsible for the reconciled being born again and experiencing that which has been already accomplished. All of it is the fruit of His work. You think that's the responsibility of the one legally reconciled, its not, its Christ responsibility solely because He is the Saviour !

 

[brightfame52]

So I’m not denying the reality of what Christ did; I’m just keeping the objective act and the subjective reception in their proper places.

The problem we having is that you are not giving Christ the Glory for both the objective act and the subjective reception. Christ is the applier of the subjective reception, He does that by regeneration from which comes repentance and Faith/conversion

 

[Roger316]

Look up the words God caused it on AI. Ask it, this isnt a 3rd grade class is it

I agree that God is the ultimate source of every good thing, including my turning to Him. But divine causation isn’t the same as creaturely causation. When God summons us to reconcile with Him, our response is still a real, personal act — that’s why Paul calls it “being reconciled,” not simply recognizing a pre‑existing fact.

I asked you about causation because I wanted to know if you understood the difference between divine causation and creaturely causation. I don’t disagree that God is the ultimate source of my turning to Him. But divine causation isn’t identical to creaturely causation. When Paul says “be reconciled to God,” he’s describing a real human response to God’s summons — not something that already happened at the cross.

 

[Roger316]

Okay.. That entails non imputation of sin 2 Cor 5:19 so the elect are legally saved from sin and justified by His death, for real. Now what is the promise to the reconciled in Rom 5:10 ? Thats Gods sre word of promise.

You have blended three distinct theological claims together. In order to understand them, we need to take them one at a time by separating the three different categories: 1) non-imputation, 2) justification, 3) reconciliation.

I agree that God was in Christ reconciling the world and not counting their sins against them — that’s the objective side of reconciliation. But Paul doesn’t equate non‑imputation with justification, and he doesn’t equate either one with the subjective reconciliation that happens when a person actually turns to God.

In Romans 5:10, the promise is given to those who have already responded — “having been reconciled, we shall be saved.” That only makes sense if the subjective reconciliation happens in the person, not at the cross.

So I’m not denying what Christ accomplished; I’m just keeping Paul’s categories in the same order Paul uses them.

Non‑imputation is God’s objective act; justification is God’s verdict on the believer; and subjective reconciliation is the person’s response to God’s summons. Paul keeps these distinct, so I’m trying to keep them distinct too.

Subjective reconciliation is the human act of returning to God. It happens when someone is born again. It is not something that “already happened” at the cross. And it is not “caused” in the creaturely sense.

Divine causation is not mechanical causation.

 

[Roger316]

Thats subjective reconciliation which Christ is also responsible for, that's my point. Christ is responsible for the reconciled being born again and experiencing that which has been already accomplished. All of it is the fruit of His work. You think that's the responsibility of the one legally reconciled, its not, its Christ responsibility solely because He is the Saviour !

I know. But your view isn't Biblical.

The Bible doesn't teach that Christ is responsible for subjective reconciliation.
The Bible doesn't teach that Christ is responsible for our being born again.
The Bible doesn't teach that subjective reconciliation has already been accomplished.
Reconciliation is not a legal matter.

 

[Roger316]

The problem we having is that you are not giving Christ the Glory for both the objective act and the subjective reception. Christ is the applier of the subjective reception, He does that by regeneration from which comes repentance and Faith/conversion

I’m not denying Christ’s glory in anything. I’m simply keeping two different kinds of causation distinct.

God is the transcendent cause of everything that exists — including every good response we make. But that’s not the same as saying He performs the response instead of us. When Paul says “be reconciled to God,” he’s describing a real human act that God summons us into, not something Christ already did on our behalf.

So I’m not removing Christ from the subjective side — I’m just keeping divine causation and human response in their proper categories so Paul’s language stays meaningful.

 

[brightfame52]

I agree that God is the ultimate source of every good thing, including my turning to Him.

You can make your mouth say anything friend

But divine causation isn’t the same as creaturely causation

Nobody said a word about creaturely causation but you

When God summons us to reconcile with Him, our response is still a real, personal act — that’s why Paul calls it “being reconciled,” not simply recognizing a pre‑existing fact.

Ive been over this many many times

I asked you about causation because I wanted to know if you understood the difference between divine causation and creaturely causation.

Dude how many times have I said Jesus caused repentance by giving it to His people as Per Acts 5:31

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

I even shared the lexicon notation on this very verse for the word give: didōmi

. the noun denotes something to be done by him to whom it is said to be given: διδόναι τινὶ μετάνοιαν, to cause him to repent, Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18; https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g1325/kjv/tr/0-1/

 

[brightfame52]

I’m not denying Christ’s glory in anything.

Yes you are, though it may not be intentional

When Paul says “be reconciled to God,” he’s describing a real human act that God summons us into, not something Christ already did on our behalf.

Been over this a million times

So I’m not removing Christ from the subjective side

Yes you have, He is the author of our subjective experience, otherwise wouldn't be no subjective experience

I’m just keeping divine causation and human response in their proper categories so Paul’s language stays meaningful.

You are corrupting the word of God, may God grant you repentance my friend

 

[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday said:
The imperative mood is the mood of command;

For the 1000th time I know what the imperative is, I stated it earlier

You only state what you want to hear/know/believe and ignore the full meaning

The imperative mood is the mood of command; i.e., it is requiring something of someone or someones that is volitionally possible from those of whom the action is being required. With the present imperative, the action conveyed is keep on doing whatever one is doing, and with the aorist imperative, the action is start doing something.​

https://www.blueletterbible.org/assets/pdf/grammars/Simplified_Greek_Grammar_v5_2018.09.18.pdf​

The aorist imperative is used in 2 Corinthians 5:20. When 2 Corinthians 5:20 tells you "be ye reconciled" the verse is telling you to do something ... God has already reconciled Himself to mankind ... now you are to be reconciled to Him ... the way you are reconciled to God is to stop suppressing the truth in unrighteousness ... stop fighting God ... stop rejecting God ... get "self" out of the way and God will work in you.




reneweddaybyday said:

the second aorist passive​

I know what a passive voice is, the subject is receiving the action or being acted upon. God is doing the work behind the command, He is doing the changing.

God's faithful believer (the "ambassador for Christ") preaches God's Word to the unbeliever. If a person continuously rejects God working in his or her life, God allows them to do just that ... and they will reap the consequence of having rejected.

God has done all that is necessary for all mankind to be reconciled to Him ... God reconciled Himself to mankind before the foundation of the world ... then God displays His eternal power and Godhead in creation (Rom 1:20) ... then God sends His faithful believers to preach (2 Cor 5:20) ... all that is left for mankind to do is to stop suppressing the truth ... stop resisting God when God sends His faithful believer to preach His life-giving Word (Hebrews 4:12). When a person stops suppressing/resisting, the result is reconciliation ... no longer at enmity with God concerning the point the believer preached.

The phrase "work out your own salvation" is the imperative, but in Vs 13 its Gods work or working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure, So they are receiving the action from God, who is working in them, they are passive when God is working

you say "they are passive when God is working" ... if a person does not remain "passive" they do not receive the benefit. Can you see that in 2 Corinthians 5:20 where the ambassadors for Christ beg you to be reconciled? Just get out of the way ... remain passive ... "be ye reconciled to God". God is there waiting for mankind to stop resisting Him. It's not "work" to stop resisting ... it's "work" on the part of man when he or she resists ... it's turning away from God to "self" (manmade religion).

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday said:

Here's what Thayer's says about "be ye reconciled" as used in 2 Cor 5:20:

allow yourselves to be reconciled to God; do not oppose your return into his favor, but lay hold of that favor now offered you, 2 Corinthians 5:20.​

Thats wrong, we dont allow God nothing

please re-read, brightfame52 ... and pay attention to the red:

Here's what Thayer's says about "be ye reconciled" as used in 2 Cor 5:20:

allow yourselves to be reconciled to God; do not oppose your return into his favor, but lay hold of that favor now offered you, 2 Corinthians 5:20.​

Neither myself nor Thayer's said anything about "allow God" ... that is your misconstruction so you can continue to resist the full meaning of "be ye reconciled " in 2 Cor 5:20, which is for you to "allow yourself to be reconciled to God; do not oppose your return into his favor, but lay hold of that favor now offered you" ... just as Thayer's has laid out.

that's blasphemy,

What is "blasphemy" is your continual re-writing of what is presented.

I did not say "allow God".

Thayer's does not say "allow God".

What Thayer's and I are saying is allow yourself to be reconciled to God. God will finish His work if you'd just get out of the way.

the ones to whom that imperative is issued have already legally been reconciled to God Rom 5:10 and 2 Cor 5:19 sins are not imputed to the reconciled, period !

If they "already legally been reconciled to God", then they are not "enemies"

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

God is the One Who reconciled Himself to mankind before the foundation of the world ... before Adam and Eve sinned. God knew they would sin and God made provision through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

There is no subset of humanity which you consistently refer to as "the elect". All mankind (including your so-called "elect") is born "dead in trespasses and sins" and walk "according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" and all have their "conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:1-3).

God sends his faithful believers to speak His Word which is life-giving (Hebrews 4:12) ... those who do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness receive the benefit ... those who continue to suppress the truth in unrighteousness receive the consequence of having rejected when God came to them.

Interesting that those who are cast into the lake of fire are not judged for any sin ... they are judged for their works:

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday said:

Here's what Thayer's says about "be reconciled to" as used in 1 Cor 7:11:​

​

let her return into harmony with ... her husband, 1 Corinthians 7:11​

This is a passive imperative but kinda different, its a The Middle-Passive Nuance. This is human relationship, different context from 2 Cor 5:20 where the parties are legally reconciled men and God:

Now AI knowing my reformed position, I asked how does the imperative passive works in 1 Cor 7:11 ? And AI broke it down as following:

Here's your AI result

In 1 Corinthians 7:11, the phrase "be reconciled" (Greek: καταλλαγήτω / katallagētō) is indeed an Aorist Imperative Passive. [1, 2, 3]
Just like in 2 Corinthians 5:20, an imperative passive means the subject is commanded to yield to an action done by someone else, rather than forcing it through their own independent strength.

focus on this point ...

"Just like in 2 Corinthians 5:20 ... the subject is commanded to yield to an action done by someone else"​

that is exactly what needs to take place ... the words "be ye reconciled" mean "yield to the action" God will work in you if you stop suppressing the truth in unrighteousness ... stop rejecting Him ... stop fighting Him.

God has already reconciled Himself to mankind through the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world ... God is waiting for you to yield to His powerful, life-giving Word.

.

 

[brightfame52]

You only state what you want to hear/know/believe and ignore the full meaning

No I stated what it was, a command.

The aorist imperative is used in 2 Corinthians 5:20. When 2 Corinthians 5:20 tells you "be ye reconciled" the verse is telling you to do something ... God has already reconciled Himself to mankind ... now you are to be reconciled to Him ... the way you are reconciled to God is to stop suppressing the truth in unrighteousness ... stop fighting God ... stop rejecting God ... get "self" out of the way and God will work in you.

This is error, its ultimately exalting man in salvation, and down playing Christ complete salvation work. I have already explained the imperative and passive nature of this command, their reconciliation to God is a done deal, they are being caused to embrace it. And this imperative has nothing to do with all mankind, All mankind has never been reconciled to God, we know this because many in mankind have their sins still charged to them, and they remain unforgiven.