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Reconciled to God while enemies !
- Thread starter brightfame52
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Did you read the first sentence that "with man this is impossible"?
The "faith in Christ" (your translation), is actually "faith of Christ" - it is by Christ's faith and faithfulness, not man's
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
No its Just His Son alone that stands as their righteousness/Justification before God. Without Him no Justification.
You added to the verse. It makes no claim of requiring man's faith. It is solely by Christ
T
Thaddeus
Guest
Yep, with man this is impossible.
God draws you to His son by the power of the Spirit. He enables you to accept Christ as your saviour, at that point you are then saved under a righteousness/justification of faith in Christ
Youre trying to turn the core tenet of the christian faith on its head.
Faith of Christ/in Christ.
T
Thaddeus
Guest
KJV again:
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. Heb10:38&39
T
Thaddeus
Guest
KJV again :
;For ye are all the children of God by faith IN(IN) Christ Jesus. Gal3:26
FYI: Christ as Savior, is the core tenet of the Christian faith, not man; man is only the beneficiary of what Chrisy achieved. You have it reversed! Do you believe that Christ is the Savior or not? If you don't that should tell you everything about your belief that you need to know.
Those who do not "believe to the saving of the soul" do so through God, not man
[1Pe 1:5 KJV] 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
"in Christ": that is faith which comes by God having placed someone "in Christ". It is not from themselves but from God
@Thaddeus
I mistyped this reply to you. I should have stated "those who believe to the saving of the soul, not, "do not believe to the saving of the soul"
Please consider
OT believers already declared righteous in promise by faith, like Abraham (Romans 4:3), as true OT believers ("foreknew" by God by their OT faith), predestined to believe the Gospel (Romans 8:28-29), were only legally reconciled to God by the death of Jesus on the cross (Romans 3:25-26). Even Abraham, while credited with righteousness by faith, and foreknown by God as a true OT believer, and given the right to become a Son of God in promise (John 1:12-13), to be born again [in Christ], was technically still in Adam and an enemy with God in the legal sense, according to the Law, up until Pentecost, when the Church was birthed [the first placed into Christ]. There sins were covered, but not yet atoned.
In short, consider that true OT believers still needed to be reconciled to God through Christ, even the ones in Abrahams bosom waiting for the cross who were owed that promise, yet died without receiving it (Hebrews 11:39-40). The life didn't happen until the indwelling. The Holy Spirit, the life, was not given until after the death resurrection and ascension of Jesus.
Consider the whole thrust of the book of Romans, written just 25 years after Pentecost, then the "we" in Romans 5:10, like in other places in Romans, is speaking to people who believed both before and after the cross. Having lived through that transition recorded in Acts, were true OT believers, some having heard the Gospel before the cross, sometimes from Jesus Himself, and believed and were owed the Holy Spirit of promise, the indwelling, the baptism/placing into with the Holy Spirit. There were also true OT believers, like Cornelius and his household, Lydia, and many others in Acts who were true OT believers already declared righteous by faith, just like Abraham, and did not hear the Gospel until after the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. They were predestined to be conformed to Christlikeness per (Romans 8:28-29). These are possibly what Paul had in mind when he said "we" in Romans 5:10. Not unbelievers as we know them today. But people in various states of faith, some who did not yet hear the Gospel, who were given to the Son by the Father, but not yet legally reconciled by their Gospel believing faith, which would place them into Christ. They were owed that reconciliation as a result of that 'placing into' Christ [indwelling] with the of the Holy Spirit that gives us all the ingredients that save/delivers us, both practically (born again), and legally (justified).
So the "we" in Romans 5:10 are, I believe, the saved in Promise by OT standards, but not yet legally reconciled NT believers. The reconciliation is just the promise answered. That's why the baptism/placing into with/by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is called the Promise of the Father. The promise was realized through the indwelling Holy Spirit, which had to wait until Christ was lifted up and glorified. So they ("we" in Romans 5:10) includes all believers who were owed that promise in faith, even the dead heroes of faith, who were perfected forever along with "us" ( True OT believers, who became True NT believers), (Hebrews 11:39-40).
That's the way I see Romans 5:10. Remember, Romans was written by Jews mostly for Jews. Most of them lived through the transition recorded in Acts, and many OT believers were trying to wrap their heads around all this stuff that's happening and being taught. Paul was explaining it all, grace and the Law, justification by faith, all of it. They had it all wrong. Paul was fixing that. Just something to consider.
Dave
much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
"much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life"
Now to whom does this promise apply ? Why it applies to all whom were reconciled to God by the Death of His Son while they were being enemies/unbelievers, whomever they are. Now some will contend that Paul here is writing to believers, which fact is True, However they willfully neglect to understand what he wrote to the believers of Rome, some fact about them that was true when they were not believers, but enemies and in unbelief, and that was, even then as enemies in their minds by wicked works as per Col 1:21, they were nevertheless reconciled to God [in His Favour] solely by the Death of His Son for them, and thus being reconciled [ as enemies/unbelievers] they shall be saved by His Life !
Now what does it mean that they shall be saved by His Life ? Well after His reconciling Death, He now forever lives to make Intercession for those He died Heb 7:25
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Meaning all those He died for shall be saved by His Life, His Intercession, which lives on doing as an addendum to His reconciling Death.
Those who are reconciled by His Death [ in any age of world history from the beginning of the world to its end] as an added benefit and blessing thereof, they shall be saved by His Life, out of being enemies and unbelievers Col 1:21 by His Intercession which He ever liveth to perform on their behalf. The Saving Here means that they shall be saved through His Life of Intercession, and thoroughly converted to God, and that is what " They shall be saved by His Life means Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 3
Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
"much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life"
Now to whom does this promise apply ? Why it applies to all whom were reconciled to God by the Death of His Son while they were being enemies/unbelievers, whomever they are. Now some will contend that Paul here is writing to believers, which fact is True, However they willfully neglect to understand what he wrote to the believers of Rome, some fact about them that was true when they were not believers, but enemies and in unbelief, and that was, even then as enemies in their minds by wicked works as per Col 1:21, they were nevertheless reconciled to God [in His Favour] solely by the Death of His Son for them, and thus being reconciled [ as enemies/unbelievers] they shall be saved by His Life !
Now what does it mean that they shall be saved by His Life ? Well after His reconciling Death, He now forever lives to make Intercession for those He died Heb 7:25
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Meaning all those He died for shall be saved by His Life, His Intercession, which lives on doing as an addendum to His reconciling Death.
Those who are reconciled by His Death [ in any age of world history from the beginning of the world to its end] as an added benefit and blessing thereof, they shall be saved by His Life, out of being enemies and unbelievers Col 1:21 by His Intercession which He ever liveth to perform on their behalf. The Saving Here means that they shall be saved through His Life of Intercession, and thoroughly converted to God, and that is what " They shall be saved by His Life means Rom 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 3
This is wrong, Abraham and all others Christ died for, or would die for, were by His death reconciled to God while enemies. This is Legal.
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Thaddeus
Guest
I completely agree, faith is a gift of God so that no man can boast. And saving faith is faith in Christ. That is enough to respond to of your posts
T
Thaddeus
Guest
T
Thaddeus
Guest
BTW
What do you think of this verse from the KJV:
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. Luke8:13
What did they believe in for a while?
What did they fall away from?
I am being completely honest, brightfame52. The one who "isn't being honest" is the one who refuses to believe what his own source document claims.
I input the following into Google:
"The Contextual Shift: In 2 Corinthians 5, you are entirely passive because God is the perfect initiator. "
here is the result (red mine):
AI Overview
In 2 Corinthians 5, God is the perfect and unilateral initiator who provides the ultimate means of salvation and reconciliation. However, this passage frames the believer's role not as entirely passive, but as an active, Spirit-empowered partnership.
The text highlights a distinct dynamic between divine initiative and human response:
- Divine Initiative: Everything regarding our reconciliation to God originates from Him through Christ. He took the initiative to remove the barrier of sin and constitutes believers as a "new creation".
- The Power Source: The internal transformation and desire to please God are supernatural works accomplished by the Holy Spirit, who serves as a guarantee.
- Active Partnership: While salvation is completely God’s doing, believers do not remain passive. Once reconciled, Christians are called to be actively engaged as "ambassadors for Christ," with God making His appeal to the world directly through them.
- Active Choice: In verse 20, the plea "be reconciled to God" requires the believer to consciously accept and lay hold of the favor God has offered. Furthermore, believers are instructed to make it their "aim to please Him" in thought and deed before the judgment seat of Christ.
I have explained to you that the words "be ye reconciled" in 2 Corinthians 5:20 mean that the person is to yield to God.
Your own source tells you the same thing.
That you continue to suppress the truth in unrighteousness is clear evidence that you have not yielded ... and you continue to refuse to yield ... to God.
I have not omitted anything. I have explained to you that the aorist passive imperative as used in the Greek language denotes a command:
In the case of 1 Corinthians 7:11, the wife who left her husband is to return and be reconciled to her husband or she is to remain unmarried.
In the case of 2 Corinthians 5:20, the faithful believer is to speak God's Word and the hearer is to remain passive ... not suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... not fight against God's Word ... yield to God's leading.
God's Word is life itself and God's Word will be fulfilled in the one who yields his or her own wisdom ... then God's Word will work in his or her life:
Psalm 119:25 My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.
Psalm 119:50 This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.
Psalm 119:93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.
Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Psalm 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
No, those who Christ is the Savior of, they come to belief. You have it reversed again. Christ is the Savior, man is not.
T
Thaddeus
Guest
It gets a bit silly really
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. John20:21
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 1John4:15
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: 1John5:1
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1John5:13
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke8:12
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Rom4:5