Repentance Vs Eternal Security
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Matthew 10 includes Judas:
Mt 10:1 "And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease."
Mt 10:7,8 "And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."
Mt 10:19,20 "But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."
Mt 10:40 "He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me."
The new birth of Jn 3:5 is water baptism. It is the human adminstered water baptism of Christ's great commission that took effet in Acts 2:38 AFTER Judas died. None of the 12 received this baptism prior to Acts 2.
Anytime anyone adds anything to Gods grace they are basing their salvation on their works and not the finished work of Christ. You have not admitted it to yourself but God knows. Trusting God for your salvation means trusting that God has done everything necessary and that the blood of Christ is wholly sufficient to save from sin and give us eternal life with Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yes sir! The same tactic satan has been using since day one still works. People still buy into it.. Oh for the day when people will humble themslves, and just give it all to Christ, and forget trying to be good Just do what he wants, Which is to serve others. If we do this. The good works will naturally follow. Because it is the power of God who enables us.
I don't recall asking you a question and or even addressing you in particular as I made a simple statement per say to the question/statement that I addressed....Baptism is a work of righteousness and John 3:5 is referencing a physical birth of a woman and even Jesus and Nicodemus took it that way! That which is born of flesh is flesh and How can a man enter into the womb a second time.........
Except a man be born of (water) a woman and of the spirit (GOD) he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
Not to mention the fact that the water is mentioned before the spirit......which is contradicts the order of BLOOD BEFORE WATER
A
Alligator
Guest
it's amazing how if you truly believe Christ's blood is all sufficient and that He is the source of our salvation, that then allows you to claim that man has no part in his salvation. One doesn't offset the other, God has done His part, now man must do his part. If man has no part, then why did the writers do the new and old testaments spend so much time on it with all the warnings? There are more than one kind of works. There are works of the law, ( Rom. 3:28), our own righteous works (Titus 3:5), and works of obedience (Heb. 5:8-9). Jesus said IF you love me you WILL keep my commandments. So I have no intention claiming to be a Christian and at the same time setting back and doing nothing.
C
cfultz3
Guest
I know, huh? What nerves he has to dare speak to you?
P.S. I know you were not talking to me. But, since this is an open forum and your post was in an open forum, I decided to reply to something I wanted to reply to. So, no need to tell me off, I already know you were not talking to me.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Maybe, Because when jesus was on the cross. He said, "IT IS FINISHED" Not what some of you out there want him to say, and "Ok Now I did my part. now you do yours"
I think Paul said it best.
Colossians 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
If the handwriting of requirements which was against us was completely removed. Then what more needs to be done?
A
Alligator
Guest
Christ saying "it is finished" has nothing to do with what I was saying. He was talking about God's plan of redemption, that His Son would be sent to die for the sins of mankind, which was known from the beginning of time. Col. 2:14 also is not talking about works of obedience. He is talking about all the works required under the law of Moses, and those have been set aside. This has nothing to do with our obeying Christ under the Christian dispensation .
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Oh it has everything to do with what your saying. He stated clearly. the plan of salvation is completed. Nothing else needs to be done, Salvation is now offered to all people based on my work. My promise of eternal life, And the guarantee of My Spirit which I will give all who trust me
lol.
So the works of the law will not save you. But the works of the NT will.
Wow. If you only understood how this sounds.
Sorry Guys, I gave you this law and all these commands and religious tradition and did not give you anything else for 2000 years. But they never helped anyone get saved. They were only saved by their faith (see romans 4). But now that I have paid the finished work. I need to to observe these new commands, Which are required to save you ..
Your joking right??
C
cfultz3
Guest
What is required for salvation? FAITH!!!
What is faith? Trusting in the Voice of the Lord, who we now call Jesus, the One leading you to the Promised Land.
We can be as the fallen Hebrews and be lead astray by the deceitfulness of our heart or we can HEARKEN unto that Voice.
What does the Voice of the Lord tell us if not, "Come and follow Me"?
Let us all, therefore, learn His ways and be not as the Hebrews whose hearts were stubborn and did not HEARKEN unto the Voice of the Lord and never came to known His ways. With whom, after so long of a time, God grew DISGUSTED with and caused their carcasses to fall in the wilderness. Who then was He disgusted with? Was it not with those who offended Him, those who were unpersuaded and refused obedience?
But, we, those who trust in Him and learn His ways, are not stubborn and by which we are lead to the Promised Land.
Hearken unto the Lord, His ways have never changed. His morals is the Law of the Spirit and love fulfills that Law.
What is faith? Trusting in the Voice of the Lord, who we now call Jesus, the One leading you to the Promised Land.
We can be as the fallen Hebrews and be lead astray by the deceitfulness of our heart or we can HEARKEN unto that Voice.
What does the Voice of the Lord tell us if not, "Come and follow Me"?
Let us all, therefore, learn His ways and be not as the Hebrews whose hearts were stubborn and did not HEARKEN unto the Voice of the Lord and never came to known His ways. With whom, after so long of a time, God grew DISGUSTED with and caused their carcasses to fall in the wilderness. Who then was He disgusted with? Was it not with those who offended Him, those who were unpersuaded and refused obedience?
But, we, those who trust in Him and learn His ways, are not stubborn and by which we are lead to the Promised Land.
Hearken unto the Lord, His ways have never changed. His morals is the Law of the Spirit and love fulfills that Law.
Transcript excerpted from 'The New Covenant' by Bob George:
Under the Old Covenant, here's a command, and I command you to keep it. That's the Covenant. In the same way he sprinkled both the Tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. In fact, the Law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood. And mark this, if you're marking your Bible, "Without the shedding of blood", there is how much forgiveness? How much? None.
Now I want you to think through this: If without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins, if there was any further forgiveness to be executed on your behalf, by God, what would He have to do?
Shed His Blood, would He not?
Is He gonna do that?
No.
Did He do that?
Yes.
Because without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, but with the shedding of blood, there was forgiveness.
How much forgiveness?
Total.
So is there any further, is there any further shedding of blood?
No.
Is there any further forgiveness?
No.
Then what are you going to have to conclude about the forgiveness you have?
It's finished.
It is a done deal.
Are you in the New Covenant?
Yes.
Then you are a forgiven person.
Now I want you to think through this: If without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins, if there was any further forgiveness to be executed on your behalf, by God, what would He have to do?
Shed His Blood, would He not?
Is He gonna do that?
No.
Did He do that?
Yes.
Because without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, but with the shedding of blood, there was forgiveness.
How much forgiveness?
Total.
So is there any further, is there any further shedding of blood?
No.
Is there any further forgiveness?
No.
Then what are you going to have to conclude about the forgiveness you have?
It's finished.
It is a done deal.
Are you in the New Covenant?
Yes.
Then you are a forgiven person.
The full, free audio download can be accessed here: http://bobgeorge.net/?ddownload=1833
Red Tent, when you engage in repeated confession and repentance with the aim of 'getting forgiven' for continuing sinning, you are behaving as though the Blood of Christ was not enough; treating the Blood of the New Covenant as an unholy thing.
10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (from Hebrews 10)
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (from Hebrews 10)
Grace and peace,
-JGIG
If you believe that, then you must draw the line somewhere:
- What's too much sinning?
- Are there some sins that are worse than others?
- What kinds of sinning are going to put you over that 'line'?
- What Scriptures define that line?
- Do those Scriptures that you may think of define sins that Jesus did not die for?
- Who determines the 'Biblical Standard'?
- What if the backslidden believer comes to repentance (a change of mind and heart about their behavior) and comes back to Christ?
- Can they do so?
- If your answer is yes, then the Conditional Security interpretations of Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26 cannot both hold water at the same time . . .
Will anyone answer these questions using contextual Scripture?
I contend that the Eternal Security position has contextual Scriptural answers to all of the above questions without contradictions
. -JGIG
A
Alligator
Guest
If you believe that, then you must draw the line somewhere:
- What's too much sinning?
- Are there some sins that are worse than others?
- What kinds of sinning are going to put you over that 'line'?
- What Scriptures define that line?
- Do those Scriptures that you may think of define sins that Jesus did not die for?
- Who determines the 'Biblical Standard'?
- What if the backslidden believer comes to repentance (a change of mind and heart about their behavior) and comes back to Christ?
- Can they do so?
- If your answer is yes, then the Conditional Security interpretations of Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26 cannot both hold water at the same time . . .
Will anyone answer these questions using contextual Scripture?
I contend that the Eternal Security position has contextual Scriptural answers to all of the above questions without contradictions
-JGIG
i believe you you already know the answers to most of those questions. In fact you've already furnished some of the scriptures that answer them. Neither you or ES have answered my post 309, yet you want me to answer your questions. I repeat, ANY sin, unrepented of, can send us to hell.
well, of course a sinner can repent and get back in God's good graces. This in no way contradicts the two Heb. Passages you refer to. Show me where you think they contradict.
If you believe that, then you don't believe that the Blood of Christ forgave all sins as the Scriptures say (1 Jn 2:2).
The only sin that is unforgivable is the sin of unbelief.
Is it okay for a believer to continue on in habitual sin?
No, sinning is destructive to the believer and to those around them. Sinning is distracting to the believer in doing the works God has prepared for them to do in advance (Eph. 2).
The next question from the Conditional Security believer will be what about murder or sexual sin . . . those really wanting to make their point will mention really vile things like bestiality or child-molestation, often leaving out the equally 'bad' sins of the flesh such as slander and pride. Most believers don't WANT to do those things, and AREN'T doing those things, and any believers who are doing those things are miserable!
You're banking on your perceived notion that God's Grace has its limits; that God will only stand for so much.
If that were the case, then Jesus would never have needed to do the Work of the Cross - God would have just rubbed us all out and started over. No, instead the Scriptures say this:
20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded
grace abounded (hyperperisseuō) all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(abounded - G5248 - hyperperisseuō
1.to abound beyond measure, abound exceedingly
2.to overflow, to enjoy abundantly)
1.to abound beyond measure, abound exceedingly
2.to overflow, to enjoy abundantly)
grace abounded (hyperperisseuō) all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
But that's not how God works; He has more Grace for mankind than man has! Think of the believers at Corinth who were having sex with temple prostitutes and then coming to fellowship with other believers . . . !!! Did Paul tell them they were going to lose their salvation? No . . . he built them up in who they were in Christ:
8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers. 9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And that is what some of you were.
But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
12 "Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"--but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also.
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. 18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.
19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body. (from 1 Cor. 6)
11 And that is what some of you were.
But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
12 "Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. 13 "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"--but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also.
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17 But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. 18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.
19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body. (from 1 Cor. 6)
Thank God that He sees the big picture - He sees our lives from beginning to end and is patient to let Grace teach us to say no to ungodliness as we learn from our mistakes (Titus 2). Some are slower learners than others - all believers are secure in Christ - God is not counting their sins against them:
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. (from 2 Cor. 5)
That doesn't mean that we won't reap the consequences of sinning in this life. Paul repeats in 1 Cor. 10:
23 "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive.
-JGIG
If you believe that, then you must draw the line somewhere:
- What's too much sinning?
- Are there some sins that are worse than others?
- What kinds of sinning are going to put you over that 'line'?
- What Scriptures define that line?
- Do those Scriptures that you may think of define sins that Jesus did not die for?
- Who determines the 'Biblical Standard'?
- What if the backslidden believer comes to repentance (a change of mind and heart about their behavior) and comes back to Christ?
- Can they do so?
- If your answer is yes, then the Conditional Security interpretations of Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26 cannot both hold water at the same time . . .
Will anyone answer these questions using contextual Scripture?
I contend that the Eternal Security position has contextual Scriptural answers to all of the above questions without contradictions
-JGIG
UMM That's the wrong question. Because what is at the heart of the matter is when does continued sin cause one to fall into UNBELIEF. How is one declared righteous? We are declared righteous by FAITH. The Bible plainly shows that one is either in BELIEF or UNBELIEF. No one WITHOUT exception can be saved WITHOUT faith.
Does continued sexual sins cause one to fall away from the faith FASTER then smoking? And is that line DIFFERENT for each person when they can no longer be brought back to repentance?
Please explain if one has lost their faith and fallen into unbelief,how are they still declared righteous?