Repentance Vs Eternal Security

[Alligator]

i believe you you already know the answers to most of those questions. In fact you've already furnished some of the scriptures that answer them. Neither you or ES have answered my post 309, yet you want me to answer your questions. I repeat, ANY sin, unrepented of, can send us to hell.

well, of course a sinner can repent and get back in God's good graces. This in no way contradicts the two Heb. Passages you refer to. Show me where you think they contradict.

Then you and every other person who has ever lived except Christ is doomed. There is NO Scripture to back up what you say.

To believe what you say, one has to believe that ANY sin is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

That is not Good News; it is not the Gospel. R

There's no Scripture to back up the concept of 'getting back in God's good graces'. You are either a forgiven person or you are not. and once you have received the free gift of forgiveness, ALL of your sins, past, present, and future, have been cast as far as the East is from the West. You may be holding your sins against yourself, but God is not (see 2 Cor. 5:16-21, Gal. 2:18).

• What has to happen for there to be further forgiveness for sins (if it were necessary, which it is not)?
• Blood would have to be shed.
• Whose Blood?
• Christ's!
• Did He already do that work, on the Cross?
• Yes.
• Is He doming back to do it again?
• No!
• Why not?
• Because once was enough! (see Hebrews 10)

Why do you insist on dragging Christ back to the Cross as if His Work is not more significant than your sinning?

His Work was more than sufficient to be the propitiation for not only ALL of your sins, but also for ALL of the sins of the WHOLE world! (1 Jn. 2:2)



Conditional Security contradicts the whole of the message of the letter to the Hebrews. Hebrews is all about how the New Covenant is a better Covenant that is built on better promises than the Old. Repeated confession and repentance - the way you describe it - is reducing the New Covenant down to Old Covenant practice minus animal sacrifices. What you're doing is WORSE - putting the Blood of the New Covenant to shame by saying that ANY sin is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

Conditional Security folks will usually use Hebrews 10:26 to say that too much sinning, and look out, you'll lose your salvation - you better 'get right' with God and fly straight, while preaching that in Hebrews 6 it teaches that once you've tasted the goodness of God, if you fall away, too bad, so sad, there is no coming back to repentance. There is no hope in that message - it is not Good News, and by definition, not the Gospel.

The repeated sinning spoken of in Hebrews 10:26 is the repeated sin of unbelief - that is an unsaved person. Once one receives Christ and His righteousness, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, guaranteeing them for the day of redemption (Romans 5, Ephesians 1).

Hebrews 6, when it talks about how it's impossible to return to repentance, is speaking of the repentance unto salvation. Once sealed with the Holy Spirit, He GUARANTEES you - delivers you allllllll the way to the day of Redemption. It's impossible to drift in and out of a state of forgiveness - it's impossible to be brought BACK to salvation because you cannot be UNsaved once saved - because you ARE SO SECURE in Christ's Hand, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be brought back to repentance unto salvation.

Does that mean we never repent as Christians? No. Repentance is a change of mind and heart (a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done as G3341 - metanoia, the Greek word for repentance). As believers, we change our minds and hearts as we grow and mature in Christ to line up more an more with what He says about us and who we are in Christ. As what we believe lines up more and more with what God says, our behavior changes to more and more reflect the Character of Christ. It's about the renewal of the mind (Romans 12:1-2) and the bearing of the Fruit of the Holy Spirit as we learn to be led by Him (Galatians 5).

What you are advocating is a return to Old Covenant practices - that is putting yourself under your own constructed version of law (repent, confess, rinse and repeat ad nauseam, not recognizing the Finished Work of Christ able to save you COMPLETELY), and if you are under law, you are not led by the Spirit, and not bearing His Fruit.

You're out here telling people that ANY sin they commit is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

Scripture tells people that if they are in Christ, they are the very Righteousness of God in Christ, and God is no longer holding their sins, ANY of their sins, against them (Romans 5, 2 Corinthians 5).

I'm goin' with what Scripture says!

-JGIG

What is truly amazing about this is that every time I, or anyone else, says man has a part in his salvation, you, without ever answering the question, immediately jump,on the idea that we are diminishing or nullifying the blood of Christ or His power to forgive sins. This is so false. This is in no way lessening the power of Christ. I'm simply trying to get you to see that your position is wrong. you think all you have to do is believe, but taking that position, you must deny a multitude of scriptures that warn us to remain faithful. It's funny that obeying Christ and His gospel is a bad thing (II Thes. 1:7-9).

 

[PennEd]

What is truly amazing about this is that every time I, or anyone else, says man has a part in his salvation, you, without ever answering the question, immediately jump,on the idea that we are diminishing or nullifying the blood of Christ or His power to forgive sins. This is so false. This is in no way lessening the power of Christ. I'm simply trying to get you to see that your position is wrong. you think all you have to do is believe, but taking that position, you must deny a multitude of scriptures that warn us to remain faithful. It's funny that obeying Christ and His gospel is a bad thing (II Thes. 1:7-9).

I had to read this post several times to make sure I read your statement that man has some part in his own salvation correctly.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--AND THIS IS NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God--

 

[PennEd]

Then you and every other person who has ever lived except Christ is doomed. There is NO Scripture to back up what you say.

To believe what you say, one has to believe that ANY sin is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

That is not Good News; it is not the Gospel.

There's no Scripture to back up the concept of 'getting back in God's good graces'. You are either a forgiven person or you are not. and once you have received the free gift of forgiveness, ALL of your sins, past, present, and future, have been cast as far as the East is from the West. You may be holding your sins against yourself, but God is not (see 2 Cor. 5:16-21, Gal. 2:18).

• What has to happen for there to be further forgiveness for sins (if it were necessary, which it is not)?
• Blood would have to be shed.
• Whose Blood?
• Christ's!
• Did He already do that work, on the Cross?
• Yes.
• Is He doming back to do it again?
• No!
• Why not?
• Because once was enough! (see Hebrews 10)

Why do you insist on dragging Christ back to the Cross as if His Work is not more significant than your sinning?

His Work was more than sufficient to be the propitiation for not only ALL of your sins, but also for ALL of the sins of the WHOLE world! (1 Jn. 2:2)



Conditional Security contradicts the whole of the message of the letter to the Hebrews. Hebrews is all about how the New Covenant is a better Covenant that is built on better promises than the Old. Repeated confession and repentance - the way you describe it - is reducing the New Covenant down to Old Covenant practice minus animal sacrifices. What you're doing is WORSE - putting the Blood of the New Covenant to shame by saying that ANY sin is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

Conditional Security folks will usually use Hebrews 10:26 to say that too much sinning, and look out, you'll lose your salvation - you better 'get right' with God and fly straight, while preaching that in Hebrews 6 it teaches that once you've tasted the goodness of God, if you fall away, too bad, so sad, there is no coming back to repentance. There is no hope in that message - it is not Good News, and by definition, not the Gospel.

The repeated sinning spoken of in Hebrews 10:26 is the repeated sin of unbelief - that is an unsaved person. Once one receives Christ and His righteousness, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, guaranteeing them for the day of redemption (Romans 5, Ephesians 1).

Hebrews 6, when it talks about how it's impossible to return to repentance, is speaking of the repentance unto salvation. Once sealed with the Holy Spirit, He GUARANTEES you - delivers you allllllll the way to the day of Redemption. It's impossible to drift in and out of a state of forgiveness - it's impossible to be brought BACK to salvation because you cannot be UNsaved once saved - because you ARE SO SECURE in Christ's Hand, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be brought back to repentance unto salvation.

Does that mean we never repent as Christians? No. Repentance is a change of mind and heart (a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done as G3341 - metanoia, the Greek word for repentance). As believers, we change our minds and hearts as we grow and mature in Christ to line up more an more with what He says about us and who we are in Christ. As what we believe lines up more and more with what God says, our behavior changes to more and more reflect the Character of Christ. It's about the renewal of the mind (Romans 12:1-2) and the bearing of the Fruit of the Holy Spirit as we learn to be led by Him (Galatians 5).

What you are advocating is a return to Old Covenant practices - that is putting yourself under your own constructed version of law (repent, confess, rinse and repeat ad nauseam, not recognizing the Finished Work of Christ able to save you COMPLETELY), and if you are under law, you are not led by the Spirit, and not bearing His Fruit.

You're out here telling people that ANY sin they commit is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

Scripture tells people that if they are in Christ, they are the very Righteousness of God in Christ, and God is no longer holding their sins, ANY of their sins, against them (Romans 5, 2 Corinthians 5).

I'm goin' with what Scripture says!

-JGIG

Thank you very much for this post. I have to admit I have struggled mightily with Hebrews 6 and 10. I believe at one time I was under spiritually attack with satan using these verses to make me believe I lost Salvation, but Jesus NEVER left me or forsook me. Further in Hebrews, 12:6, and also in Proverbs 3:12 " because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."

I know I needed chastening, and I love the Lord now more than I ever did before His discipline.

 

[Hoffco]

All the "elect" of God have "eternal security" from all eternity past to eternity future. But they are NOT saved until the are born of God; Then, they repent, trust and obey Christ. for eternal life. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

We need to keep in mind that Jesus' death, in and of itself, saved no one, the death has to be applied to the sinner by the Holy Spirit, Jesus and the Father,by the new birth. AND there is no salvation without repentance from "dead works" to "true works in Christ". From what I am hearing and understand, this was also true in the Old T. sacrifice. The sacrifice was for no specific sin but sins in general, each sin had to be repented of individually. That is why Isaiah one tells of unsaved Jews, faithful to make the sacrifices but still lost in their sins, because they did not really repent. As David said in Psa 51, God does not want sacrifice, but a contrite heart. David did not lost sal. but he lost assurrance of is sal.. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are reading God's grace is unconditional into the bible. You as much admit there is no verse that says God's grace is unconditional.

Why do you continue to argue? The very word MEANS UNCONDITIONAL

Do I have to repeat myself??

When you give charity to someone, Do you ask them to earn it first. or just give it out of the kindness of your hear because they need it. That is what the word means.

Those in Phil 1:5 were faithful in staying in the gospel from "the first day until now"

Yep. And paul followed it up by saying to continue until the day of Christ. He reassured them that they did nto have to worry until then, but could continue to trust God. Because God would continue it until the day of Christ.

Your twisting what it means.

I'm just pointing out how Eternal Securists cherry-pick verses, pull them out of context and then attach eternal security to the verse.

Oh so you twisting a passage and taking it out of context to make it not mean eternal security makes it ok?

Phil 1:6 does NOT say "he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ because of eternal security"

He he said it SO WE CAN KNOW WE HAVE ETERNAL SECURITY. So we can continue in faith. Just as John did.

"I tell you thewse things so you can KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and continue to believe in his name.

If I do not have eternal security, I have no basis to continue trusting God. For I have to trust myself. How can I trust myself? There is no hope in me.

Sorry, but the false teacher is the one who adds eternal security into Phil 1:6 thereby perverting God's word.

no, the one who is false is the one calling paul a liae when he said he will continue the work until the DAY OF CHRIST, and misinterpret it to mean that day. They are not the same day, You can't even think of twising it and getting them to match,

Paul did not say "now is the day of Christ'. But is referring to when he first preached in Philippi for their CONTINUED faithfulness in fellowship in the gospel.[/quote
Now that is twisting. No context. or reason for paul to say this if he did not mean the day of Christ

Coffman Commentary aptly put it: (my emp)

It should be noted here that Paul's confidence was not in the Philippians but in God. It was the conduct of those Philippians up to that point which inspired Paul with confidence concerning their ultimate destiny. As Hendriksen put it:

Your perseverance in sympathetic participation in the work of the gospel (Philippians 1:5) has convinced me that you are the objects of divine preservation (Philippians 1:6). These two must not be separated[17]


​

It is true that God did foreordain and predestinate such souls to eternal life; but there was absolutely nothing in God's so doing to compel the Philippians to be such souls! That is not what Paul declared here; but rather his declaration is that the evidence proved the Philippians to be such souls, as attested by their conduct throughout his acquaintance with them, and that God would surely reward them eternally, such a confidence, of course, being contingent upon the fact of the Philippians continuing to be such souls. (17) William Hendriksen, op. cit., p. 51.

--------------

Verses 10,11 "That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. Being filled with the fruits of righteousness,"

If eternal security were true, then salvation is NOT CONDITIONAL upon those Philippian Christians to be sincere, without offense and filled with fruits of righteousness. They could be insincere, with offense and be filled with fruits of UNrighteousness and still be sved if ES were true.

So are you going to argue their salvation was CONDITONAL or UNCONDITIONAL upon being sincere, without offense and being filled with fruits of righteousness?

Now that is twisting.

THE DAY OF CHRIST

In Scripture that is the day God returns to ressurect his people. There is no other interpretation

Stop listtening to men who twist the word of God. Better yet Stop having faith in yourself. Better yet, START TRUSTING GOD TO KEEP HIS PROMISE

 

[SeaBass]

Why do you continue to argue? The very word MEANS UNCONDITIONAL

Do I have to repeat myself??

When you give charity to someone, Do you ask them to earn it first. or just give it out of the kindness of your hear because they need it. That is what the word means.

Grace does not necessitate unconditional. Naaman was healed by grace CONDITIONAL upon his dipping in the river 7 times.

Yep. And paul followed it up by saying to continue until the day of Christ. He reassured them that they did nto have to worry until then, but could continue to trust God. Because God would continue it until the day of Christ.

Your twisting what it means.

Paul's confidence in v6 was a result of their faithfulness in continuing in the gospel in v5. The two verse go together.

Oh so you twisting a passage and taking it out of context to make it not mean eternal security makes it ok?

Eternal security is not in either verse 5 or 6. Verse 5 gets ignored as being the reason for Paul's confidence.

He he said it SO WE CAN KNOW WE HAVE ETERNAL SECURITY. So we can continue in faith. Just as John did.

"I tell you thewse things so you can KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and continue to believe in his name.

If I do not have eternal security, I have no basis to continue trusting God. For I have to trust myself. How can I trust myself? There is no hope in me.

"Eternal security" is not remotely in the verses. Again verse 5 gets ignored when it is the reason for Paul's conficence and "eternal security" is fored into the text whilr verse 5 gets ignored/forced out.

no, the one who is false is the one calling paul a liae when he said he will continue the work until the DAY OF CHRIST, and misinterpret it to mean that day. They are not the same day, You can't even think of twising it and getting them to match,

Now that is twisting. No context. or reason for paul to say this if he did not mean the day of Christ




Now that is twisting.

No twisting on my part, you just did not want to answer a simple question

So are you going to argue their salvation was CONDITONAL or UNCONDITIONAL upon being sincere, without offense and being filled with fruits of righteousness?

 

[JGIG]

If you believe that, then you must draw the line somewhere:

• What's too much sinning?
• Are there some sins that are worse than others?
• What kinds of sinning are going to put you over that 'line'?
• What Scriptures define that line?
• Do those Scriptures that you may think of define sins that Jesus did not die for?
• Who determines the 'Biblical Standard'?
• What if the backslidden believer comes to repentance (a change of mind and heart about their behavior) and comes back to Christ?
• Can they do so?
• If your answer is yes, then the Conditional Security interpretations of Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26 cannot both hold water at the same time . . .

Will anyone answer these questions using contextual Scripture?

I contend that the Eternal Security position has contextual Scriptural answers to all of the above questions without contradictions .

-JGIG

One sin, any sin is enough to keep a Christian out of heaven if he does not repent of his sin. God does not forgive if one does not repent. If one argues repentance for the Christian is not necessary, then the question becomes: how many unrepented-unforgiven sins will the Christian carry into heaven with him?

The prodigal son is an example of a backslidden one returning to be "alive again".

Heb 6 is very clear proof one that is saved " those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come" can fall away.

You cannot, with integrity, believe both your first sentence and your last paragraph at the same time. In your first sentence you say that one sin, unrepented of, can keep one out of heaven (polite way to say they lose their salvation and go to eternal damnation).

In your last sentence, you misquote, out of context, a small part of Hebrews 6. Let's look at it in context:

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.​

Out of context, some use that passage to support conditional security, but in so doing, they doom the backslider, or in your case, the believer who sins even one time, to eternal damnation.

In context, Hebrews 6 (along with Hebrews chapters 4-10) tells how in the New Covenant, which is vastly superior to the Old, because one is so secure in Christ (because of His perfect Sacrifice and His Permanent, Perfect, High Priesthood) that it's impossible to repent again unto salvation. Repentance for the believer is done all the time - repent means to change one's mind and heart (G3341 - metanoia), and has to do with the renewing of the mind (Rom. 12:1-2) and the maturity of the believer.

But that is not what Hebrews 6 is talking about.

All sin was dealt with at the Cross. Sin can no longer separate the believer who has received the gift of forgiveness and the Righteousness of God in Christ from God (Rom. 5, 2 Cor. 5).


Read the following carefully:


It's impossible to bring the believer back to repentance (unto salvation, which, in context is what this passage is talking about - coming into the New Covenant), because even when the believer sins, because ALL of their sins were dealt with completely at the Cross, it is NOT NECESSARY, and therefore IMPOSSIBLE, for them to be BROUGHT BACK TO a place where they ALREADY ARE in Christ.

Why?

Because to do so would mean that Christ would have to provide more forgiveness.

Has God dealt with the sins of the world?
​

Yes.​

How many times did He deal with it?
​

Once.​

Have your sins been judged?
​

Yes. ​

Where were they judged?
​

At the Cross.​

What was the verdict?
​

Guilty.​

What was the punishment?
​

Death.​

Who took it?
​

Jesus.​

How much of it?
​

All of it.​

How much is left for you?
​

None.
​

(You can hear the above highlighted in purple in a teaching HERE. Another excellent teaching regarding Hebrews 6:4-6 can be found here: Hebrews 6:4-6 Can You Lose Your Salvation?)
​

​

Here's the thing:

A) You claim that unrepentant believers will go to hell, and must repent to salvage their salvation (there's a concept completely foreign to Scripture), and then

B) You quote, out of context, a Scripture that says that it's impossible for someone who's fallen away to repent.
​

To believe both of those things at the same time is doublemindedness and goes against the clear Truths of the Gospel.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Then you and every other person who has ever lived except Christ is doomed. There is NO Scripture to back up what you say.

To believe what you say, one has to believe that ANY sin is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

That is not Good News; it is not the Gospel.

There's no Scripture to back up the concept of 'getting back in God's good graces'. You are either a forgiven person or you are not. and once you have received the free gift of forgiveness, ALL of your sins, past, present, and future, have been cast as far as the East is from the West. You may be holding your sins against yourself, but God is not (see 2 Cor. 5:16-21, Gal. 2:18).

• What has to happen for there to be further forgiveness for sins (if it were necessary, which it is not)?
• Blood would have to be shed.
• Whose Blood?
• Christ's!
• Did He already do that work, on the Cross?
• Yes.
• Is He doming back to do it again?
• No!
• Why not?
• Because once was enough! (see Hebrews 10)

Why do you insist on dragging Christ back to the Cross as if His Work is not more significant than your sinning?

His Work was more than sufficient to be the propitiation for not only ALL of your sins, but also for ALL of the sins of the WHOLE world! (1 Jn. 2:2)



Conditional Security contradicts the whole of the message of the letter to the Hebrews. Hebrews is all about how the New Covenant is a better Covenant that is built on better promises than the Old. Repeated confession and repentance - the way you describe it - is reducing the New Covenant down to Old Covenant practice minus animal sacrifices. What you're doing is WORSE - putting the Blood of the New Covenant to shame by saying that ANY sin is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

Conditional Security folks will usually use Hebrews 10:26 to say that too much sinning, and look out, you'll lose your salvation - you better 'get right' with God and fly straight, while preaching that in Hebrews 6 it teaches that once you've tasted the goodness of God, if you fall away, too bad, so sad, there is no coming back to repentance. There is no hope in that message - it is not Good News, and by definition, not the Gospel.

The repeated sinning spoken of in Hebrews 10:26 is the repeated sin of unbelief - that is an unsaved person. Once one receives Christ and His righteousness, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, guaranteeing them for the day of redemption (Romans 5, Ephesians 1).

Hebrews 6, when it talks about how it's impossible to return to repentance, is speaking of the repentance unto salvation. Once sealed with the Holy Spirit, He GUARANTEES you - delivers you allllllll the way to the day of Redemption. It's impossible to drift in and out of a state of forgiveness - it's impossible to be brought BACK to salvation because you cannot be UNsaved once saved - because you ARE SO SECURE in Christ's Hand, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be brought back to repentance unto salvation.

Does that mean we never repent as Christians? No. Repentance is a change of mind and heart (a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done as G3341 - metanoia, the Greek word for repentance). As believers, we change our minds and hearts as we grow and mature in Christ to line up more an more with what He says about us and who we are in Christ. As what we believe lines up more and more with what God says, our behavior changes to more and more reflect the Character of Christ. It's about the renewal of the mind (Romans 12:1-2) and the bearing of the Fruit of the Holy Spirit as we learn to be led by Him (Galatians 5).

What you are advocating is a return to Old Covenant practices - that is putting yourself under your own constructed version of law (repent, confess, rinse and repeat ad nauseam, not recognizing the Finished Work of Christ able to save you COMPLETELY), and if you are under law, you are not led by the Spirit, and not bearing His Fruit.

You're out here telling people that ANY sin they commit is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

Scripture tells people that if they are in Christ, they are the very Righteousness of God in Christ, and God is no longer holding their sins, ANY of their sins, against them (Romans 5, 2 Corinthians 5).

I'm goin' with what Scripture says!

-JGIG

What is truly amazing about this is that every time I, or anyone else, says man has a part in his salvation, you, without ever answering the question, immediately jump,on the idea that we are diminishing or nullifying the blood of Christ or His power to forgive sins. This is so false. This is in no way lessening the power of Christ. I'm simply trying to get you to see that your position is wrong. you think all you have to do is believe, but taking that position, you must deny a multitude of scriptures that warn us to remain faithful. It's funny that obeying Christ and His gospel is a bad thing (II Thes. 1:7-9).

Alligator, we don't seal ourselves in order to guarantee ourselves unto the day of Redemption, God does:

13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (from Eph. 1)​

So we see that God presents to us the Gospel - we respond, YES, I agree with you on that - and when we believe - when we partake in the New Covenant in Christ by faith, God SEALS us with His Holy Spirit, GUARANTEEING our inheritance, that of ETERNAL LIFE.

I'm no Calvinist. I don't believe in Limited Atonement and Irresistible Grace. We absolutely must respond by an act of our will to the Gospel of Grace. But when we enter into the New Covenant in Christ, we are sealed. We ARE secure in Christ because of HIS WORK at the Cross, His Resurrection, and His Perfect High Priesthood.

In Christ we become a New Creation, and Grace begins to teach us to say no to ungodliness (Tit. 2:11-14); Grace begins to prove God's faithfulness to us and we learn to trust Him. And as that progresses and we mature in Him, we not only learn to hold fast to that wonderful Gospel of Grace, but do so joyfully. For most of us, that is a life-long process.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Thank you very much for this post. I have to admit I have struggled mightily with Hebrews 6 and 10. I believe at one time I was under spiritually attack with satan using these verses to make me believe I lost Salvation, but Jesus NEVER left me or forsook me. Further in Hebrews, 12:6, and also in Proverbs 3:12 " because the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."

I know I needed chastening, and I love the Lord now more than I ever did before His discipline.

Thanks for the kind words. For me, the more I have come to understand the complete Work of Christ and the Perfect High Priesthood of Christ, the more EVERYTHING makes sense!

Regarding Hebrews 12:6, you may find the following articles interesting:

• Hebrews 12:6 Does God Scourge His Kids?
• Does God Scourge Us? 7 Reasons to say “No!”

Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG

 

[Angela53510]

Then you and every other person who has ever lived except Christ is doomed. There is NO Scripture to back up what you say.

To believe what you say, one has to believe that ANY sin is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

That is not Good News; it is not the Gospel.

There's no Scripture to back up the concept of 'getting back in God's good graces'. You are either a forgiven person or you are not. and once you have received the free gift of forgiveness, ALL of your sins, past, present, and future, have been cast as far as the East is from the West. You may be holding your sins against yourself, but God is not (see 2 Cor. 5:16-21, Gal. 2:18).

• What has to happen for there to be further forgiveness for sins (if it were necessary, which it is not)?
• Blood would have to be shed.
• Whose Blood?
• Christ's!
• Did He already do that work, on the Cross?
• Yes.
• Is He doming back to do it again?
• No!
• Why not?
• Because once was enough! (see Hebrews 10)

Why do you insist on dragging Christ back to the Cross as if His Work is not more significant than your sinning?

His Work was more than sufficient to be the propitiation for not only ALL of your sins, but also for ALL of the sins of the WHOLE world! (1 Jn. 2:2)



Conditional Security contradicts the whole of the message of the letter to the Hebrews. Hebrews is all about how the New Covenant is a better Covenant that is built on better promises than the Old. Repeated confession and repentance - the way you describe it - is reducing the New Covenant down to Old Covenant practice minus animal sacrifices. What you're doing is WORSE - putting the Blood of the New Covenant to shame by saying that ANY sin is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

Conditional Security folks will usually use Hebrews 10:26 to say that too much sinning, and look out, you'll lose your salvation - you better 'get right' with God and fly straight, while preaching that in Hebrews 6 it teaches that once you've tasted the goodness of God, if you fall away, too bad, so sad, there is no coming back to repentance. There is no hope in that message - it is not Good News, and by definition, not the Gospel.

The repeated sinning spoken of in Hebrews 10:26 is the repeated sin of unbelief - that is an unsaved person. Once one receives Christ and His righteousness, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit, guaranteeing them for the day of redemption (Romans 5, Ephesians 1).

Hebrews 6, when it talks about how it's impossible to return to repentance, is speaking of the repentance unto salvation. Once sealed with the Holy Spirit, He GUARANTEES you - delivers you allllllll the way to the day of Redemption. It's impossible to drift in and out of a state of forgiveness - it's impossible to be brought BACK to salvation because you cannot be UNsaved once saved - because you ARE SO SECURE in Christ's Hand, it's IMPOSSIBLE to be brought back to repentance unto salvation.

Does that mean we never repent as Christians? No. Repentance is a change of mind and heart (a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done as G3341 - metanoia, the Greek word for repentance). As believers, we change our minds and hearts as we grow and mature in Christ to line up more an more with what He says about us and who we are in Christ. As what we believe lines up more and more with what God says, our behavior changes to more and more reflect the Character of Christ. It's about the renewal of the mind (Romans 12:1-2) and the bearing of the Fruit of the Holy Spirit as we learn to be led by Him (Galatians 5).

What you are advocating is a return to Old Covenant practices - that is putting yourself under your own constructed version of law (repent, confess, rinse and repeat ad nauseam, not recognizing the Finished Work of Christ able to save you COMPLETELY), and if you are under law, you are not led by the Spirit, and not bearing His Fruit.

You're out here telling people that ANY sin they commit is more powerful than the Blood of Christ.

Scripture tells people that if they are in Christ, they are the very Righteousness of God in Christ, and God is no longer holding their sins, ANY of their sins, against them (Romans 5, 2 Corinthians 5).

I'm goin' with what Scripture says!

-JGIG

Brilliant post! Too bad some people are so dogmatic about their poor theology, they cannot see the forest from the tress!!

 

[SarahM777]

What is truly amazing about this is that every time I, or anyone else, says man has a part in his salvation, you, without ever answering the question, immediately jump,on the idea that we are diminishing or nullifying the blood of Christ or His power to forgive sins. This is so false. This is in no way lessening the power of Christ. I'm simply trying to get you to see that your position is wrong. you think all you have to do is believe, but taking that position, you must deny a multitude of scriptures that warn us to remain faithful. It's funny that obeying Christ and His gospel is a bad thing (II Thes. 1:7-9).

Question for you. How then do you deal with self murder? Didn't Jesus plainly say this

Matthew 12

31"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Jesus is very clear that ANY SIN AND BLASPHEMY SHALL BE FORGIVEN EXCEPT blasphemy against the Spirit. Now self murder is NOT blasphemy against the Spirit,since it is NOT that it shall be forgiven. So what is at the heart of whether it is forgiven or not? If it not forgiven that person then it MUST be because of unbelief,if one believes then one would be forgiven of it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We need to keep in mind that Jesus' death, in and of itself, saved no one, the death has to be applied to the sinner by the Holy Spirit, Jesus and the Father,by the new birth. AND there is no salvation without repentance from "dead works" to "true works in Christ". From what I am hearing and understand, this was also true in the Old T. sacrifice. The sacrifice was for no specific sin but sins in general, each sin had to be repented of individually. That is why Isaiah one tells of unsaved Jews, faithful to make the sacrifices but still lost in their sins, because they did not really repent. As David said in Psa 51, God does not want sacrifice, but a contrite heart. David did not lost sal. but he lost assurrance of is sal.. Love to all, Hoffco

1. There were many sacrifices in the OT.
2. The big one was the day of atonement. The only day a High Priest would enter the Holy of Holy's, and make sacrifice for ALL the sins of the people for the year.
3. This allowed God to "pass over the sin" of the people, all people, for that whole year. He did this once a year
4. Hebrews explains this. How a priest enters continually doing what can never take away sin (it represented Christ on the cross. Making perfect atonement for ALL SIN of ALL PEOPLE for ALL ETERNITY.
5. David di not lose assurance of his salvation. He knew he had sinned against God. And knew he was still saved, But had grieved God As we grieve the HS.

I still would like to know what it is you think you can offer God. Considering you are totally unworthy of his love, let alone his GIFT of eternal life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Grace does not necessitate unconditional. Naaman was healed by grace CONDITIONAL upon his dipping in the river 7 times.





[/B][/COLOR]Paul's confidence in v6 was a result of their faithfulness in continuing in the gospel in v5. The two verse go together.




Eternal security is not in either verse 5 or 6. Verse 5 gets ignored as being the reason for Paul's confidence.



"Eternal security" is not remotely in the verses. Again verse 5 gets ignored when it is the reason for Paul's conficence and "eternal security" is fored into the text whilr verse 5 gets ignored/forced out.




No twisting on my part, you just did not want to answer a simple question

So are you going to argue their salvation was CONDITONAL or UNCONDITIONAL upon being sincere, without offense and being filled with fruits of righteousness?

Good luck working to earn Gods love. Scripture says you are worthy of nothing but condemnation.

But hey, If you think your works of righteousness will get you a ticket to heaven. Continue working. You will not be happy with the outcome though. You will be right there with your pharisee brothers who rejected Christs one gift of payment on the cross. When Jesus says depart. for I NEVER KNEW YOU

 

[BradC]

We need to keep in mind that Jesus' death, in and of itself, saved no one, the death has to be applied to the sinner by the Holy Spirit, Jesus and the Father,by the new birth. AND there is no salvation without repentance from "dead works" to "true works in Christ". From what I am hearing and understand, this was also true in the Old T. sacrifice. The sacrifice was for no specific sin but sins in general, each sin had to be repented of individually. That is why Isaiah one tells of unsaved Jews, faithful to make the sacrifices but still lost in their sins, because they did not really repent. As David said in Psa 51, God does not want sacrifice, but a contrite heart. David did not lost sal. but he lost assurrance of is sal.. Love to all, Hoffco

The greatest work that God has ever done for sinful man is when He crucified and put away their sin through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. When we believe upon Christ all sin is cleansed and the believer is made new. He is justified at that point with no imputed sin. His repentance was when he turned from himself as a sinner unto the living God through Christ. If God does not cleansed the believer when he believes, then he is not clean and the blood has not had any effect. But we know that the blood cleanses the believer 'every whit'. If we sin after we have been justified we confess it to God, receive grace and the blood will continue to clean us from the unrighteousness of what we have confessed before God. This is a contrite heart and it includes offering to God the blood of Christ that was shed on our behalf. If we sin we also have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father and declares that He was already judged for that sin and it can not be imputed to the believer. Our work of faith is to present the blood of Christ retroactive as He did to the Father. Many do not understand how to apply the finished work of Christ on their own behalf and get into a 'works program' which is nothing more than a religious penance program to atone for their own sins and shortcomings.

 

[Alligator]

Question for you. How then do you deal with self murder? Didn't Jesus plainly say this

Matthew 12

31"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.32"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Jesus is very clear that ANY SIN AND BLASPHEMY SHALL BE FORGIVEN EXCEPT blasphemy against the Spirit. Now self murder is NOT blasphemy against the Spirit,since it is NOT that it shall be forgiven. So what is at the heart of whether it is forgiven or not? If it not forgiven that person then it MUST be because of unbelief,if one believes then one would be forgiven of it.

Thats right, any sin will be forgiven man. But we learn from other scriptures that the sin must be repented of and we must confess our sins (I John 1:9-10).in order to be forgiven (Luke 13:3). Unfortunately, when you commit the sin of murder, it is too late to repent.
G

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thats right, any sin will be forgiven man. But we learn from other scriptures that the sin must be repented of and we must confess our sins (I John 1:9-10).in order to be forgiven (Luke 13:3). Unfortunately, when you commit the sin of murder, it is too late to repent.
G

poor david and paul. Both are in hell now (as well as so many OT and NT saints)

Question for you. How many times have you lost and gained salvation back since you first decided to believe in Christ.?

 

[SarahM777]

Thats right, any sin will be forgiven man. But we learn from other scriptures that the sin must be repented of and we must confess our sins (I John 1:9-10).in order to be forgiven (Luke 13:3). Unfortunately, when you commit the sin of murder, it is too late to repent.
G

Then why didn't Jesus make the sin of self murder an exception also? If it is to late to repent then why didn't He state that it also a sin that would NOT be forgiven?

 

[BradC]

I had to read this post several times to make sure I read your statement that man has some part in his own salvation correctly.

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--AND THIS IS NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God--

Man does not have the power to save himself for that is God's work, but he does have the power to agree with God when he comes under conviction of the Holy Spirit. God does the saving by grace and we do the believing by faith which is our work. Every part of the work of salvation is from God and we become the recipient of that salvation through faith and that is 'not from ourselves, but is a gift of God'.

 

[BenFTW]

I addressed Who is the perfecter of faith in this post above: http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...tance-vs-eternal-security-17.html#post1451916

Who's setting the criteria to determine whether a person has actually fallen into 'unbelief' or whether they are just discouraged in their faith because they're believing stuff about themselves in Christ that isn't true? Maybe because judgemental believers are telling them that God is holding their sinning against them . . .

Consider this . . .



Fruit in a believers life does not come out fully formed and completely ripe.

Good fruit takes time.

Don’t judge the blossom because it’s not yet a strawberry.

Let me take the example of a morbidly obese person, say, around 300 lbs. or so. You may look at the person in question and make observations, thinking unkind thoughts about their size, their ‘obvious’ eating habits, their ‘obvious’ undisciplined lifestyle, their ‘obvious’ sin of gluttony, etc. Please do not misunderstand; I’m not saying at all that obesity is a sin. This is an illustration.

Now let’s take a look at what you don’t see, because you CANNOT see what GOD sees, and you may be greatly misinterpreting what’s going on in someone’s life or how you perceive leadership to be handling a situation. Be careful how you interpret what you think you see:

Perhaps that 300 lb. person used to be 500 lbs., and with God’s help, they have dropped 200 lbs. They have good days and bad days, calorically speaking, but they are a work in progress, keeping their eye on the goal, persevering, and relying on God’s Mercy and Grace to see them to the finish line. Some in that position will reach their goal in a relatively short period of time; for others, it will take a lifetime. For some, it may be a simple case of an over-active love for food. For others, maybe they have an underlying medical condition. For still others, it may be a comfort thing, where they are replacing the lack of care and love in their lives with food. Whatever the issues, God is faithful to progressively address and minister to those issues over time.

Now let’s apply that same concept of what you can and cannot see to all different kinds of situations and sin scenarios. I won’t detail any here; we all have people and situations familiar to us that we’re thinking of right now.

Here’s the thing: While some are radically delivered from their addictions and/or lifestyles, for many, though positionally they have been forgiven of all their sins, it can be a life-long process for them to have victory over sinning.

For most, behavior is a manifestation of heart issues, and those things are not dealt with by employing behavior modification techniques. Those are things that take time to heal – not that God can’t deliver immediately and completely – that can and does happen – but for many, like skittish animals that have been abused, it takes time (for some, a lifetime) for the deeply wounded to learn to trust Who God is, how completely He loves and accepts them, and who they are in Him.

That said, God does save completely:

Hebrews 7:18-26
18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:

“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”

22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.

23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
​

As a result, we have unlimited and uninterrupted access to the Grace of God:

Hebrews 4:14-16
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.​

However the woundedness manifests in sinful behavior, it is God’s desire to see the positional New Creation in Christ in the spirit become the New Creation in this life:

2 Corinthians 5:16-21
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

​

What struck me as I re-read the above portion of Scripture is that God is committing to us, the Body, this message - that in and through the Work of Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself, not counting people’s sins against them. I don’t often look to commentaries, but my sense in reading, “that this is the message of the Gospel that God is committing to us“ means that it is something that God is entrusting believers with, that we would communicate this Gospel of Grace, this Good News, to others, indicated by the ‘ambassadors’ language following. I found this, from Barnes’ Notes:

Tyndale renders this: “and hath committed unto us the preaching of the atonement.” The meaning is, that the office of making known the nature of this plan, and the conditions on which God was willing to be reconciled to man, had been committed to the ministers of the gospel.​

The Scripture goes on to say that “We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making His appeal through us.” What kind of ambassadors of the message of reconciliation are we being?

How can we be proper ambassadors to the world if we, as the Body of Christ, are holding sins against people that God no longer holds against them?

I’m not speaking of Universalism, here, at all. What I am saying is that all sin was dealt with at the Cross; the sins of the entire world were propitiated for by the Work of Christ:

1 John 2:2
2He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
​

That being the case, all do need to respond by faith to believe in the Work of Christ and receive that forgiveness and the free gift of righteousness (Romans 3:21-26, Romans 5:12-21, Romans 10:9-15).

By grace, through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), we are then positionally declared justified and righteous not because of anything we have done or ever will do beyond receiving God’s free gift of righteousness, but because of Who Jesus is, His actions as the Last Adam – His Perfect Righteousness - which is imputed to us.

Note that imputed righteousness is preceded by imputed sin. It doesn’t seem fair: “ . . . as by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin . . . therefore as by the offense of one, judgement came upon all . . .” Neither is imputed righteousness ‘fair’: “ . . . For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.” (From Romans 5)

​

We are condemned by the sin of the First Adam (though the Scriptures cover the sin issue from two angles: sin was imputed to you, but by the Law we were all found guilty; no one is righteous). We who receive the gift of righteousness are declared righteous by the actions of the Last Adam (Christ Jesus). Not only that, but the result is this:

Romans 5:20-21
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

It’s very convenient for a religious spirit to ‘deal with’ believers sinning by applying the nice, neat, template of Law (an improper use of the Law, as the Law was made for the unrighteous, not believers, who in Christ, are declared righteous). One can just throw the Law out there and hope that the ‘target’ will ‘get it’ and turn from their evil ways (reduction in sinning) under the threat of ‘or else’.
______________

That's excerpted from an article I wrote, Grace or Law? How Then, Shall We Live? Click the link to read the entire piece.

-JGIG

Awesome post! Good use of verses to make your point.