Replacement theology? Yes or No.

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OMC said:
yes, I have considered that.
If Jerusalem's destruction was as significant as Jesus described in Matthew 24, then it is reasonable to ask whether John refers to it somewhere in Revelation.
The question, however, is not whether there is any connection, but whether Revelation is exhausted by that event.
Scripture itself forces me to wrestle with both possibilities.
On one hand, Revelation speaks of a city "where also our Lord was crucified" (Rev. 11:8), and many see clear judgment themes that could relate to Jerusalem.
On the other hand, Revelation also speaks of the beast, the kings of the earth gathered against Christ, Satan's final rebellion, the Great White Throne, the destruction of death itself, and the new heaven and new earth.
Those themes appear to extend beyond the events of AD 70.
So I do not find it strange to ask whether Jerusalem's fall appears in Revelation.
What I find difficult is restricting the entire book to that event when later chapters contain realities that Scripture elsewhere presents as still future.
The real question is not whether John spoke of Jerusalem's destruction at all, but whether that destruction was one part of a larger prophetic picture that ultimately culminates in the final victory of Christ over all His enemies.
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Well Rev. 21 at least belongs to the future.
I think that would be hard to argue against.
cv5 said:
Well you had better find out where your fantasy falls short of biblical reality.
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Baffoon speech!
 
cv5 said:
Yea, the pharisees made the same accusation against Jesus.
But He is right and so am I because I glorify His doctrine and eschatology.
Not some Gnostic heresy that you are too ignorant to identify.
Or too cowardly to call out and warn others about.
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if someone is truly teaching heresy, expose it from Scripture.
If someone is denying Christ, expose it from Scripture.
If someone is corrupting the gospel, expose it from Scripture.
But simply asserting, "I glorify Christ's doctrine, therefore my opponents are heretics," is not the standard Scripture gives.
The question remains unchanged: what do the Scriptures actually say, and can the charge be proven from the text rather than assumed?
Your answer was a deflection as all answers you give are. Dragon speech.
 
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Beekeeper said:
Yes, 13:9 looks forward to Jesus, as does ch, 14.
Don't ask me to comment too much on ch.14, because it contains metaphor that flummoxes dispensationalist minds, and in some cases my own.
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As I've mentioned before, there are MANY verses in the Bible that have more than one meaning.

When we look at Zechariah 14, we can see where they are. I'll add my own personal thoughts in RED below:
  • Splitting of the Mount of Olives: The mountain cleaving in two from east to west to create a valley for escape, symbolizing divine interventionand the removal of barriers for God’s people.
    • I see this as true, like God/Jesus parting the Red Sea.
  • Living Waters: Rivers flowing from Jerusalem to the eastern (Dead Sea) and western (Mediterranean) seas, representing spiritual renewal, life-giving blessing, and the pervasive work of the Holy Spirit.
    • Jesus himself is called the "Living Waters" throughout the Bible. He sustains all life, even the life in the seas.
  • Unique Day: A day that is neither clear day nor dark night, but light at evening, symbolizing a supernatural erawhere God’s glory replaces natural celestial cycles.
    • I look at this in two ways. I think there will actually be a day when Jesus returns and people won't see darkness or the nighttime on that day because the Bible tells us that He IS the light. He was the light in Genesis 1 that proceeded the creation of the sun. In Heaven, there is no day or night because He is the light of it (Revelation 21).
  • Plague on Nations: The rotting of flesh, eyes, and tongues while enemies stand, representing sudden divine judgmentand the horrific consequences of opposing God.
    • I see this like it was written.
  • No Rain: The withholding of rain from nations that refuse to worship, symbolizing God’s withheld favorand the spiritual barrenness resulting from rebellion.
    • As in the past, I see this as twofold. When they are not being blessed, there will be no rain and the Holy Spirit that is referred to as the "sprinkling of water" in the Old Testament will also be withheld from them until they obey again.
  • Land as a Plain: The elevation of Jerusalem and leveling of surrounding terrain, symbolizing universal accessto God’s presence and the exaltation of His kingdom.
    • I believe this is literal, just like I believe that Jesus will be ruling from a High Mountain from the book of Ezekiel.
  • Holiness to the Lord: Inscriptions on horse bells and cooking pots, symbolizing the pervasive sanctificationof all aspects of life, from public to private.
    • I have no opinion on this one.
  • Feast of Tabernacles: Annual pilgrimage of all nations to Jerusalem, symbolizing the inclusive worshipof the Messiah and the gathering of Gentiles into God’s redemptive plan.
    • I can see everyone during the Millennial Kingdom period celebrating God/Jesus by participating in feasts days together in remembrance of everything God/Jesus has done for all of us.
  • Armageddon/Last Battle: The gathering of all nations against Jerusalem, symbolizing the final eschatological conflictbetween God’s people and the forces of evil.
    • Yes, I see this as the final conflict that is started by the future Anti-Christ and will end with God/Jesus Himself when He arrives with His saints to make war with the enemy to destroy them for good.

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Beekeeper said:
I hope I did not ruffle your feathers with what I said.
"There is a view that the pre trib rapture doctrine began from Margret McDonald's trans channeling experiences."
Of course that is not a Biblical statement, it is a historical rumor.
I do not even know if it is true or not.
My view is that there is a resurrection at the end of the world, but I guess that is a bit different to a "rapture".
I am familiar with Jesus words in the Bible and have not found the pre-trib rapture in them.
You are welcome to share the passage.
Also if you are familiar with any commentaries or written sermons from before the 1830s that preach the pre-trib rapture, that would be an interesting way of debunking the rumor.
I have so far not been able to find any.
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I hope this does not ruffle tour feathers but the early church ( where you claim to get get your doctrine and override verses) was RIFE WITH ERROR.
Catholic doctrine parallels your beliefs and is handed down from the same source and methods you are using and foundation you stand on.
Look at your basis.
1) A girls vision. (I only see postribbers invoking her)...NEVER PRETRIBBERS.
2)Flawed ancient dead men that were trying to understand end times dynamics.

Do you actually own a bible?
Or, are you just sure pretrib rapture can not be right, so you scour endless you tube videos hoping to mock your way into truth?
Since you are so knowledgeable, please, please, teach me the way.
Show me in the Bible where you are correct.
Show me just one postrib rapture verse
 
cv5 said:
Does this help you:
1) The NATION ISRAEL is the POSSESSOR of the New Covenant.
2) We presently reside in the CHURCH AGE.

And let me ask you: do you (like me) uncanny that the RT's and CT's and preterists etc fail to grasp the simple fact that
the New Covenant was prophesied TO ISRAEL waaaaayyyyy back in Jer 31:31?
You know.......long before the rejection of their Messiah and Church age interregnum became a thing?

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.”
— Jeremiah 31:31 KJV
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I would also add that the Church had to be the second born.
In order that Israel comes in last.
I brought up the first miracle of Jesus earlier in opposed, which was added Jewish wedding.
It was declared that the wedding by the host, that he best wine was saved for last, which was directly pointing to the Jewish people. The nation of israel coming in second and "last"
 
OMC said:
if someone is truly teaching heresy, expose it from Scripture.
If someone is denying Christ, expose it from Scripture.
If someone is corrupting the gospel, expose it from Scripture.
But simply asserting, "I glorify Christ's doctrine, therefore my opponents are heretics," is not the standard Scripture gives.
The question remains unchanged: what do the Scriptures actually say, and can the charge be proven from the text rather than assumed?
Your answer was a deflection as all answers you give are. Dragon speech.
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I have 30K+ posts to your 2K.

So don't waste your time lecturing me about my lack of posts. Now get back to work hall monitor.
 
cv5 said:
I have 30K+ posts to your 2K.

So don't waste your time lecturing me about my lack of posts. Now get back to work hall monitor.
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Dragon, my post count, your post count, and anyone else's post count is completely irrelevant to whether a doctrine is true.
Job's friends talked a lot too, but God said they had not spoken rightly of Him (Job 42:7).
 
Psalm1 said:
I would also add that the Church had to be the second born.
In order that Israel comes in last.
I brought up the first miracle of Jesus earlier in opposed, which was added Jewish wedding.
It was declared that the wedding by the host, that he best wine was saved for last, which was directly pointing to the Jewish people. The nation of israel coming in second and "last"
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Maybe Jesus Himself is the "last" wine, which is the fulfillment.
Need to be of careful interpretation.
 
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Churchgoer said:
Maybe Jesus Himself is the "last" wine, which is the fulfillment.
Need to be of careful interpretation.
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Nope.
JESUS is the FIRSTFRUITS AND The firstborn.
The wine was made.
Jesus was not created.
In heaven, and heavens dynamics, the last is first and the first is last.
IOW They are interchangeable.
One point of the new covenant is that it is a better covenant.
The wine Jesus made was a better wine.
The Jews coming in last, come into a better covenant.
"You saved the best wine for last"

IOW THE FIRST MIRACLE had to point to the last.
The first miracle had to be at a wedding and wine be the centerpiece, and the first miracle had to have the component of "first vs last"
 
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Psalm1 said:
Nope.
JESUS is the FIRSTFRUITS AND The firstborn.
The wine was made.
Jesus was not created.
In heaven, and heavens dynamics, the last is first and the first is last.
IOW They are interchangeable.
One point of the new covenant is that it is a better covenant.
The wine Jesus made was a better wine.
The Jews coming in last, come into a better covenant.
"You saved the best wine for last"

IOW THE FIRST MIRACLE had to point to the last.
The first miracle had to be at a wedding and wine be the centerpiece, and the first miracle had to have the component of "first vs last"
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The miracle at Cana certainly points beyond itself.
John calls it a "sign" (John 2:11), not merely a miracle.
The better wine appearing later fits a pattern seen throughout Scripture where God reserves a greater fulfillment for a later time.
The New Covenant is called better (Heb. 8:6), Christ is the firstfruits and firstborn (1 Cor. 15:20; Col. 1:18), and the kingdom culminates in the marriage supper of the Lamb (Rev. 19:7-9).
Whether Cana specifically points to Israel's future restoration is an inference, but the themes of wedding, better wine, fulfillment, and God's greater work coming later are undeniably present in the text.
Scripture certainly presents God's final work as surpassing what came before.
 
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Psalm1 said:
Nope.
JESUS is the FIRSTFRUITS AND The firstborn.
The wine was made.
Jesus was not created.
In heaven, and heavens dynamics, the last is first and the first is last.
IOW They are interchangeable.
One point of the new covenant is that it is a better covenant.
The wine Jesus made was a better wine.
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Very much agree
Psalm1 said:
The Jews coming in last, come into a better covenant.
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Many jew believers came first. Thanks to mary, Peter, paul.... gentile enter into Jesus covenant. Not to mention the ot saints.

Psalm1 said:
"You saved the best wine for last"
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Indeed. Jesus the best.
Psalm1 said:
IOW THE FIRST MIRACLE had to point to the last.
The first miracle had to be at a wedding and wine be the centerpiece, and the first miracle had to have the component of "first vs last"
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