Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[cv5]

“What I don't agree with is the testing against scripture that you won't do just because someone presents their argument formatted by AI.”

everything I post is flooded with scripture I study daily have for a little while now ……I stopped reading through the ai arguments because they go off the rail part way through and I don’t want to waste my time fact checking and showing why it’s wrong …..I’m too old for that brother.

Look through this forum for the past two years ….. you will find arguments between to parties about the same subject both using si to “ present and format thier “arguments “ but the si is contradicting and arguing against itself lol no different from two people with opposing ideas about the same Bible …..

ai doesn’t change anything you can be a pre true believer before you start with ai and create an argument for pre trib . You can then do the exact same thing with post trib . Just like himans do it will emphasize whatever the argument is by choosing verses and ignoring or “ interpreting “ others away that condtradict it


In this forum what I’m saying is tangibly observable . You can find arguments based on the two parties using ai …….. totally opposed to the other . Instead of arguing and disagreeing themselves lol they just let ai argue for them

again though I’m not going to read through ai arguments and then spend my time searching quoting verses and explaining in order to argue with the ai hahaha that’s silly ( but that’s only an old man’s view partner ) you have your own

I’m pretty sure Christian’s knew what they needed to before ai became the new thing . Shoot I grew up on about a ten pound actual book used for cross referencing called an exhaustive concordance …… it also had all the verses from the Bible and lots of study references for understanding things so I get the use of a huge data base to study .

That’s all ai is useful for biblically . Interpreting the Bible isn’t a good use for ai. But again for like the tenth time that’s just what I think no more or less . Whatever you think is valid for you also . My point in even addressing the repetetive ai responses is I’m not interested it’s a waste of my time I’ve already been convinced of it’s major flaws again , not to prove anything to you or try to convince you to change anything but I’m conviced ai is a waste of my time ….. could be because I’m in my seventh decade . But I know I’m not interested in repetetively reading through ai arguments that aren’t correct in my view from what I’ve already studied and come to in my view a sound place .


It seems to me like some of you guys think you are teachers and are trying to teach everyone but there’s a teaching forum here . Where the teachers are meant to teach people .

discussions are different sometimes two people don’t agree and that’s ok . There are lots of reasons why I believe what I do some things I don’t know or have a clue about but other things I think I do grasp well according to what the Bible actually just says plainly.

again im not here to teach you to believe what I do but to discuss ideas about the Bible . If I was a teacher I would post in the forum where people look to be taught . Is alright if you don’t agree with everything I say im alright with that and it’s alright that I don’t agree with everything you say im ok with that .


Im not interested in arguing with aI though that’s all im saying others here are you guys should argue your views against other ai views and see if it solves anything or of then it becomes about “ who knows how to correctly use the ai” and just remains the same opposing views as always

Im definately to the point I’ll ignore the ai stuff it seems to be really growing here a few years ago people just came and discussed and argued that way lol

This is all that I really need to know from you. The rest I can extrapolate.

"What is the trigger/precursor event that literally causes the literal Second Coming to the literal earth"?

"Is Christ Jesus coming again bodily to the EARTH where every eye will see Him, in order to reign and rule from His throne in Jerusalem? Yes or no?"

 

[Komentaja]

Jerusalem’s survival is not a problem for the Jerusalem‑is‑Babylon reading because Revelation 18’s “not found any more” is covenant‑world language, not GPS‑coordinates language: the same idiom is used repeatedly in the prophets for Jerusalem’s destruction, yet those texts also promise Jerusalem’s future restoration, meaning the “never again” formula marks the end of a corrupt covenant order, not the erasure of the physical city; Revelation itself uses this pattern when the old heaven and earth “pass away” (Rev 21:1) even though the planet obviously continues, so the fall of Babylon in Rev 18 is the fall of Jerusalem‑as‑harlot, not the annihilation of the dirt under her feet.
Isaiah calls Jerusalem “Sodom” (Isa 1:10), “a harlot” (Isa 1:21), and says God will “break down” her walls and “make her desolate,” yet the same book promises she will be “exalted above the hills” (Isa 2:2) and “comforted” and “rebuilt” (Isa 40–66); Ezekiel 16 and 23 pronounce total destruction on Jerusalem using the same “never again” rhetoric, yet Ezekiel 40–48 promises her restoration and glory.
In other words, the prophets already give you the template: Jerusalem‑as‑apostate is destroyed forever, Jerusalem‑as‑redeemed is restored forever.
Revelation simply follows that pattern: the “great city” that kills the prophets (Rev 11:8; 18:24) is Jerusalem under judgment, and the New Jerusalem (Rev 21–22) is Jerusalem restored.
So the objection dissolves: the city that “will not be found again” is the old covenant Jerusalem, the harlot; the city that will be exalted forever is the new covenant Jerusalem, the bride.

Nope the city that is exalted is not the New Jerusalem, which will only arrive at the new earth, Zechariah 14 is talking about this present Jerusalem after the second coming. Read it, believe it, don't change it with some "covenant-world language"

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So, your argument can be summed up by saying...

"everything I post is flooded with scripture I study daily have for a little while now ……I stopped reading through the ai arguments because they go off the rail part way through and I don’t want to waste my time fact checking and showing why it’s wrong …..I’m too old for that brother."

Your definition of "they go off the rail" is just doublespeak for "I don't know and this is confusing and overwhelming me, so I need to stop because I'm old."

It happens to all of us. That's why we need to take breaks, go to bed, and start fresh again the next day when we need to. Anything worth knowing isn't fast, simple, or easy. Especially, when we're constantly trying to learn.

Naw my argument is im going to ignore the ai folk like I’ve had to one other person in the years I’ve been here.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Nope the city that is exalted is not the New Jerusalem, which will only arrive at the new earth, Zechariah 14 is talking about this present Jerusalem after the second coming. Read it, believe it, don't change it with some "covenant-world language"

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7,‭KJV‬‬

 

[Revelation1v8]

Naw my argument is im going to ignore the ai folk like I’ve had to one other person in the years I’ve been here.

Everyone can choose to live in their own bubble, but it doesn't do them any good.

 

[Revelation1v8]

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7,‭KJV‬‬

That verse should be broken up to relay different messages.

The current heavens and the earth, which are now, will be kept in store for the restoration of God's original people. Once that 1,000 year period is complete, it will be reserved for fire after everyone on it is judged and move on to their permanent locations.

 

[cv5]

Nope the city that is exalted is not the New Jerusalem, which will only arrive at the new earth, Zechariah 14 is talking about this present Jerusalem after the second coming. Read it, believe it, don't change it with some "covenant-world language"

"covenant-world language"

This is this nothing more than another CT fantasy IMO.
The restoration of the Kingdom to Israel is verboten to many sects.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

If you truly believe Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem you have to answer, how come Jerusalem is still here? Revelation 18 says that city won't be found again. If it is future Jerusalem you have to answer the promises that Jerusalem will be exalted and rebuilt at the second coming, not "never found again" it is the capital of the world!

Jerusalem’s survival is not a problem for the Jerusalem‑is‑Babylon reading because Revelation 18’s “not found any more” is covenant‑world language, not GPS‑coordinates language: the same idiom is used repeatedly in the prophets for Jerusalem’s destruction, yet those texts also promise Jerusalem’s future restoration, meaning the “never again” formula marks the end of a corrupt covenant order, not the erasure of the physical city; Revelation itself uses this pattern when the old heaven and earth “pass away” (Rev 21:1) even though the planet obviously continues, so the fall of Babylon in Rev 18 is the fall of Jerusalem‑as‑harlot, not the annihilation of the dirt under her feet.
Isaiah calls Jerusalem “Sodom” (Isa 1:10), “a harlot” (Isa 1:21), and says God will “break down” her walls and “make her desolate,” yet the same book promises she will be “exalted above the hills” (Isa 2:2) and “comforted” and “rebuilt” (Isa 40–66); Ezekiel 16 and 23 pronounce total destruction on Jerusalem using the same “never again” rhetoric, yet Ezekiel 40–48 promises her restoration and glory.
In other words, the prophets already give you the template: Jerusalem‑as‑apostate is destroyed forever, Jerusalem‑as‑redeemed is restored forever.
Revelation simply follows that pattern: the “great city” that kills the prophets (Rev 11:8; 18:24) is Jerusalem under judgment, and the New Jerusalem (Rev 21–22) is Jerusalem restored.
So the objection dissolves: the city that “will not be found again” is the old covenant Jerusalem, the harlot; the city that will be exalted forever is the new covenant Jerusalem, the bride.

“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬



‭‭

 

[Revelation1v8]

“In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

‭‭

This is why I'm back to believing that the restored Jerusalem is on the current earth while believers sit in Heaven waiting for the 1,000 years of peace and restoration to be over.

Once the 1,000 years of peace and restoration on the current earth are over, all are judged, the current earth is destroyed by fire and then God/Jesus replaces the entire old earth with a combined Heaven/Earth in the same place where the earth currently sits. I'm still working out if the new heaven and new earth might be kept separate for some reason with God/Jesus sitting on His throne between them, but I haven't been able to reconcile that to a complete conclusion, even though I have tried.

 

[Beekeeper]

When the Bible talks about the "Harlot" in Revelation 17 & 18, it tells you several times that it's referring to a BABYLON system in Revelation 17:5, Revelation 18:2, Revelation 18:10, and Revelation 18:21.

Revelation 18:3 - For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

It's talking about the whole earth.

If it was really the Bible that guided your views, and if you really wanted to be honest with yourself about Jerusalem, you'd stop ignoring what it says:

• Amos 9:15 — "And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God."
• Jeremiah 30:3 — "For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it."
• Jeremiah 31:28 — "And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD."
• Jeremiah 12:15 — "And it shall come to pass, after that I have plucked them out I will return, and have compassion on them, and will bring them again, every man to his heritage, and every man to his land."
• Jeremiah 24:6 — "For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up."
• Jeremiah 32:41 — "Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul."
• Jeremiah 31:4–5 — "I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. I will build thee again, and thou shalt be built; O thou virgin Israel: thou shalt be brought forth with music of tabrets."
• Jeremiah 23:3 — "For I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have compassion on the dwellings of him; and the city shall be built upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain in her proper place."
• Ezekiel 36:24 — "For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you together from all countries, and will bring you into your own land."
• Deuteronomy 30:5 — "The LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers."

As you know the story of old covenant Israel has covers a lot of history, and there were many better times under the blessing and mercy of God.
Most of those verses, just like Rev 17 and 18, have historical fulfillments and that have been widely discussed here, including by me.
There are also some eternal promises, and these cannot be fulfilled on this temporary earth.
Old covenant Jerusalem was established under God, but under the Pharisees and their followers willingly chose Satan as her lover and was judged accordingly.
She was compared to Babylon, Sodom and Egypt because God had previously judged these places in similar manner.
She also contained faithful people whom God saved, while the rest were given opportunity to repent under the ministry of the witnesses.
I could explain further, but I get the impression that you are already committed to not understanding me.

 

[Beekeeper]

Yes
It takes some undoing to figure out their deal.

I would pose this dynamic into the debate:
Why did God bother with ALL THAT TIME AND EFFORT , into israel, the priesthood, the tribes, the tabernacle, the furniture, the red heaffer, the law, the typology?

I know part of the answer.
There HAD TO BE A VEIL TO RIP at the cross.
There had to be roman occupation to provide a cross and execution.
There had to be LINEAGE.
A thousand things had to be in place.

I can almost say the Jewish ethnicity is indirect.

But no, it is DIRECT.

A COVENANT HAD TO BE MADE.

RT, is basically saying that entire ot is a mistake.

IOW, God should have skipped Isaac, and told Sarah what he told Mary.
Let Jesus be born to Sarah.

POOOOF! Now God can just skip the mistake of the ot almost entirely.

The entire OT exists for Jesus.
It was not a mistake, but has no need to be repeated either.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Sometimes you say things so we’ll brother I second this post well said as usual

“This exposes the deficiency of Sola Scriptura. We can all agree about what the scriptures say, but only those who have lived a life following the Spirit of God know what the scriptures mean“

i needed coffee and misread this . My position is that Gods word is the only way to know the truth and through his inspired word that’s already there anyone who is willing to listen to him can understand . Young men old men new Christian’s and old ones .

i don’t believe anyone depends on another believers relationship with Jesus but thier own . A man on the moon with a Bible and heart for god could understand and have a relationship with him . Mediation os already accomplished by Jesus for the individuals.
I’m definately “scripture interprets scripture “ annd god will answer annyones prayer to understand his word when it’s from the heart over time and study and most importantly application .

This is in no way to disparage or speak against biblical teachers in churches or pastors who teach lessons or any such thing they are very beneficial to the groups within churches seeking a teacher of scripture in context.

What I’m saying is it’s not necassary and no one is depending on another person to teach them what they need to know

It’s more about this relationship

“But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. Neither pray I for these alone, ( the apostles ) but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; ( the four gospels and epistles are thier words of witness of Jesus Christ and the gospel ) that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:3-4, 6, 8, 17, 20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The New Testament scripture is where belief in Christ comes from when we hear Jesus word though it’s often shocking and suprising and requires us to reject it in some form of explaination but if we listened as if it’s god speaking ……we could understand but it’s hard to accept honestly often by Christian’s

My position is of a person was to listen and accept it as gods word it’s not understanding that’s the issue but willingness

“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.


But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:35-38, 46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We should just begin hearing what the lord said when he came ….. that’s the only way to ever know him and where his annointing is found

i don’t think anyone can’t understand what he’s saying there , since Israel’s blind generation but I do think it’s terribly hard for many to hear and then accept take seriously as if God said it in the everlasting gospel and it applies to them if they are Christian should teach them a lot just in those small segments things to work on and trust in like the other things he taught and they taught after

further I think most miss it’s beauty and grace and salvstion for an imperfect yet repentant sinner. It’s logic and common sense for a group of people how it leads to peace rather than strife ect but in my years I’ve learned or at least I think so , that the main problem is not being willing to really listen to the New Testament doctrine and tbier already plain explainations of the some things that aren’t completely plain in the gospels

i believe it’s already there and we’re meant to believe it and join the faith and hope of Christ Jesus Held out for us to grasp in the gospel . Rather than to teach other things that aren’t there we should in my own personal opinion , learn what’s already there and begin to apply it to our lives


Teachers do have thoer role but these days it’s wire hard to find one not that I’ve been looking lately but a good Bible teacher is beneficial for those who don’t yet know but are moving into the faith the basics about Christ and the gospel baptism communion ect the thinfs Paul already taught should be taught now still

Instead mostly teachers teach dofferent things from what the epistles and gospel teach and then tell you tboer own thoeries. I think this happened brother

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:3-4‬ ‭

The truth being established in the gospel of course

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I believe Christ is a personal relationship and he’s able to teach us as we get to know him applying his word to life

 

[Revelation1v8]

As you know the story of old covenant Israel has covers a lot of history, and there were many better times under the blessing and mercy of God.
Most of those verses, just like Rev 17 and 18, have historical fulfillments and that have been widely discussed here, including by me.
There are also some eternal promises, and these cannot be fulfilled on this temporary earth.
Old covenant Jerusalem was established under God, but under the Pharisees and their followers willingly chose Satan as her lover and was judged accordingly.
She was compared to Babylon, Sodom and Egypt because God had previously judged these places in similar manner.
She also contained faithful people whom God saved, while the rest were given opportunity to repent under the ministry of the witnesses.
I could explain further, but I get the impression that you are already committed to not understanding me.

I already addressed some of that on page 158 in my posts here #3,146 and here #3,147.

Likewise, I think you are already committed to not understanding me, which is another reason I made the two step-by-step posts explaining how the Bible is written as it pertains to these things.

Plus, I'll throw in again what I've already posted here for your review on page 159 in post #3,175 (just click the link for it to take you there). This addresses how the Old Testament works in conjunction with the New Testament to spell out end time events.

 

[Churchgoer]

You actually think that God needs your "support" to realize His eschatological Word?

Oh and BTW, why don't you turn your unmitigated wrath upon some super evil horrid nation like Iran. Russia. North Korea.
But no, you are OBSESSED with the dissolution and disintegration of the Nation Israel alone. Its all you talk about.

Secular nation are all the same. No one better, no one worse.
I am against using Jesus name to support secular cause, such as murdering, stealing, immorality....

 

[cv5]

As you know the story of old covenant Israel has covers a lot of history, and there were many better times under the blessing and mercy of God.
Most of those verses, just like Rev 17 and 18, have historical fulfillments and that have been widely discussed here, including by me.
There are also some eternal promises, and these cannot be fulfilled on this temporary earth.
Old covenant Jerusalem was established under God, but under the Pharisees and their followers willingly chose Satan as her lover and was judged accordingly.
She was compared to Babylon, Sodom and Egypt because God had previously judged these places in similar manner.
She also contained faithful people whom God saved, while the rest were given opportunity to repent under the ministry of the witnesses.
I could explain further, but I get the impression that you are already committed to not understanding me.

Nonsense. There is no doubt whatsoever that John wrote Revelation at around 95-ish AD. Which then qualifies the meta tauta seen here.

Yes this kind of astute granular analysis is likely far beyond your pay grade and will neither be addressed nor rightly understood. But other sincere learners will surely find it edifying.

[Rev 1:19 KJV] 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Arnold Fruchtenbaum's exegetical handling of Revelation 1:19 serves as a cornerstone for his dispensational structural framework of the Book of Revelation. In his works (The Footsteps of the Messiah and various verse-by-verse commentaries), he treats Revelation 1:19 as God’s inspired, three-fold outline for the entire book, which logically and chronologically isolates Revelation 6–18 to the Tribulation period (the 70th Week of Daniel).

Here is how Fruchtenbaum breaks down the exegesis to establish that premise:
1. The Grammatical-Literary Outline (The Threefold Division)
Fruchtenbaum emphasizes that John is commanded to write down three distinct categories of things, demarcated clearly by Greek time-indicators:
* 1. "The things which thou hast seen" (ha eides — Past tense/Aorist): Refers strictly to the vision John had just witnessed in Chapter 1—the vision of the glorified Son of Man walking among the seven golden lampstands.
* 2. "The things which are" (ha eisin — Present tense): Refers to the existing state of the local churches in Asia Minor at the time of writing, spanning Chapters 2 and 3 (the Church Age).
* 3. "The things which shall be hereafter" (ha mellei ginesthai meta tauta — Future construction): Literally, "the things which are about to take place after these things."

2. The Linguistic Link: Meta Tauta (μετὰ ταῦτα)
The crucial technical link in Fruchtenbaum's exegesis hinges on the precise Greek phrase meta tauta (μετὰ ταῦτα), meaning "after these things."
* In Revelation 1:19, the third category is defined as what occurs meta tauta (after the "things which are"—i.e., after the Church Age).
* In Revelation 4:1, John writes: "After this (meta tauta) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven... which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter (meta tauta)."
Fruchtenbaum notes that the deliberate repetition of meta tauta at the opening of Chapter 4 signals the exact structural transition from Division 2 to Division 3. Everything from Chapter 4 onward belongs exclusively to the period following the completion of the Church Age.

3. The Ecclesiological Shift and the Pretribulational Rapture
Fruchtenbaum connects the outline of 1:19 with the complete absence of the Church (ekklesia / ἐκκλησία) in the earthly narrative of Chapters 6 through 18:
* Chapters 1–3: The word ekklesia occurs 19 times, describing the visible Church on earth.
* Chapters 4–5: The scene moves to heaven. The 24 elders—whom Fruchtenbaum identifies as representing the raptured, rewarded, and enthroned Church—are present in heaven prior to the opening of any seals.
* Chapters 6–18: The word ekklesia never appears again on earth until Chapter 22. Instead, the narrative focuses entirely on Israel (the 144,000 sealed from the twelve tribes in Ch. 7) and "Gentiles" or "nations."
Because Revelation 1:19 places the third section strictly after the Church era ("the things which are"), and because the Church is caught up to heaven in Chapters 4–5 before the judgment begins, Fruchtenbaum concludes that Chapters 6 through 18 cannot overlap with the Church Age in any way.

4. Correlation with Daniel's 70th Week and the Time of Jacob's Trouble
Once Revelation 1:19 establishes Revelation 6–18 as a strictly future, post-Church period, Fruchtenbaum cross-references the specific events of Chapters 6–18 with Old Testament prophecy to define its character:
* Daniel 9:24–27: The 70th Week of Daniel is a 7-year period specifically decreed for "thy people [Israel] and thy holy city [Jerusalem]." Since the Church is not Israel, the 70th Week only resumes after the Church Age concludes.
* Jeremiah 30:7: The period is designated "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Trouble for Israel).
* The Seal, Trumpet, and Bowl Judgments (Rev 6–18): These line up chronologically with the events of the final 7-year period described by Daniel, Jesus in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24), and the Old Testament prophets regarding the Day of the Lord.

 

[cv5]

The entire OT exists for Jesus.
It was not a mistake, but has no need to be repeated either.

"The entire OT exists for Jesus."

To do what exactly?
Oh wait.....I know. Marry Ruth and then redeem Naomi/Gomer.

And then restore the Kingdom to Israel.

 

[God-fearing]

The entire OT exists for Jesus.
It was not a mistake, but has no need to be repeated either.

Yes it does exist for Jesus, but the prophecies spoken of which lead up to the second coming of jesus are seen as a world wide event not isolated events that through secular reasoning distort your view.
As it points to the world today not 2000 yrs ago.
Yes we all know that it was written about the past, present and future, as jesus directed. God deals with cause and effect.
Let's take the verse that the Lord will scatter and regather his people Israel.
Let's focus on the scattering which has to come first....how was this accomplished in your opinion.

 

[Revelation1v8]

3. The Ecclesiological Shift and the Pretribulational Rapture

* Chapters 4–5: The scene moves to heaven. The 24 elders—whom Fruchtenbaum identifies as representing the raptured, rewarded, and enthroned Church—are present in heaven prior to the opening of any seals.

I've seen people refer to the 24 Elders as the saved before too. The ones seen standing with God before He takes revenge out on the earth. 12 represented by the Old Testament (12 tribes of Israel probably the 144,000 total from the 12,000 from each tribe in Revelation 7) and another 12 representing the Apostles and the New Testament Believers.

 

[cv5]

Secular nation are all the same. No one better, no one worse.
I am against using Jesus name to support secular cause, such as murdering, stealing, immorality....

Hello. Would you care to answer a simple question:
Do you believe that the tribulation occurred 70AD?

 

[Churchgoer]

Hello. Would you care to answer a simple question:
Do you believe that the tribulation occurred 70AD?

Tribulation as Jesus said no one stone will be on top of another?
If so, yes.