Yeah, but his motive is pure and his character is stellar.You are not answering my position, you are creating one for me and then attacking it.
Yeah, but his motive is pure and his character is stellar.You are not answering my position, you are creating one for me and then attacking it.
My view is not built around the labels pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, preterist, or otherwise."Before you can invoke Hymenaeus, Philetus.....against me..."
Well then please disclose your view on the pre-trib rapture and either exonerate or condemn yourself.
Oh wait: you don't know, and/or you are not sure.
Did I get that right?
In other words: "you don't know, and/or you are not sure."My view is not built around the labels pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, preterist, or otherwise.
My conviction is that Christ will return, the dead in Christ will be raised, and believers will be gathered to Him (1 Thess. 4:16-17).
I also believe that the resurrection, the gathering of the saints, and the coming of Christ are inseparably connected in the passages that explicitly discuss them (Matt. 24:29-31; 1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:16-17).
What I do not see is a passage that explicitly says, "The Church is removed seven years before Christ's visible return."
Therefore I would not teach that as certainty.
At the same time, I would not call a brother a heretic for holding a pre-trib view, because the gospel is not "Christ died for our sins, was buried, rose again the third day, and also you must hold a pre-trib rapture position."
The gospel is clearly defined in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. If you want my answer directly, I believe the rapture is real, the resurrection is real, the return of Christ is real, and I want my conclusions to come from the passages that explicitly discuss those events rather than from a system I must first assume in order to read them.
Certainty is not the issue.In other words: "you don't know, and/or you are not sure."
However, I do know and I am sure. Of the certainty of the prophesied end of the Church Age pre-trib rapture.
And yes, I am well aware of the fact that you do not rightly comprehend these passages either. Which is why I keep bringing them forward.....
[2Ti 2:17-18 KJV]
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Like @Cameron143 , you really don't have any committed eschatological position. Mostly denials, prancing pony foppish feints, and vague vacuous notions of the lukewarm spew-out-of-your-mouth kind.You are not answering my position, you are creating one for me and then attacking it.
Refusing to claim certainty where Scripture has not explicitly spoken is not lukewarmness. It is caution.Like @Cameron143 , you really don't have any committed eschatological position. Mostly denials, prancing pony foppish feints, and vague vacuous notions of the lukewarm spew-out-of-your-mouth kind.
Ohhhh.....so you are saying that YOU don't really know for sure because YOU didn't conduct the multiple inferential steps. Fine. Well you had better get a move on buddy.Certainty is not the issue.
The issue is whether the certainty is grounded in what the text actually says.
Hymenaeus and Philetus were condemned because they taught that "the resurrection is past already" (2 Tim. 2:18).
Paul identified a specific doctrinal error and showed why it was destructive.
That is very different from saying, "I am certain about a pre-trib rapture, therefore anyone who is not certain is like Hymenaeus."
If I say the resurrection is future, Christ is returning, the dead in Christ will rise, believers will be gathered to Him, and final judgment is coming, then I am affirming the very truths Hymenaeus denied.
The question of whether the gathering occurs seven years before Christ's visible return is a separate question that must be proven from Scripture itself.
You say, "I know and am sure." Fine.
Then show the passage that explicitly says the Church is removed seven years before Christ's return.
Not a system, not an inference, not a chain of deductions, but the passage itself.
Scripture repeatedly says Christ will return, the saints will be gathered, and the dead will be raised (Matt. 24:29-31; 1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:16-17).
I can read those texts directly.
The burden is not on me to prove your conclusion false; the burden is on the one claiming certainty to show where Scripture explicitly teaches it.
Paul never condemned believers for admitting, "I am not fully persuaded on a difficult prophetic detail."
He condemned those who overthrew the faith by teaching error as established truth.
Ironically, the greater danger is often not humility before difficult passages, but claiming absolute certainty where Scripture itself requires multiple inferential steps to reach a conclusion.
Confidence may be admirable, but confidence is not exegesis. Scripture is.
Finally....a right answer. Good job buddy....Yeah, but his motive is pure and his character is stellar.
What I said is that if a doctrine requires multiple inferential steps, then those steps should be demonstrated from Scripture rather than assumed.Ohhhh.....so you are saying that YOU don't really know for sure because YOU didn't conduct the multiple inferential steps. Fine. Well you had better get a move on buddy.
But don't ever assume that others suffer from these same failings of biblical illiteracy, ignorance and sloth.
You are the one who accuses folks of these things not me.But don't ever assume that others suffer from these same failings of biblical illiteracy, ignorance and sloth.
That is not a deflection, because all the eternal promises to Israel really are fulfilled in Jesus, and they are spiritual, not earthly.Deflect all you want. It doesn't change what the Bible says about Israel.
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Character is seen in actions. You clearly can't tame your own tongue. It doesn't matter what one says is true of them. It only matters what God says is true.Finally....a right answer. Good job buddy....![]()
Indeed, the wisdom from above IS pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated. BUT only for those with honest hearts who sincerely lambano/dechomai the message and hold it in integrity. And are careful to guard it and proclaim it accurately.Refusing to claim certainty where Scripture has not explicitly spoken is not lukewarmness. It is caution.
I have repeatedly affirmed the return of Christ, the resurrection, the gathering of the saints, the final judgment, and God's faithfulness to His promises.
The fact that I refuse to elevate a particular prophetic framework to the level of unquestionable doctrine does not mean I have no position.
It means I am trying to distinguish between what Scripture explicitly states and what must be inferred.
You call that weakness.
I call it letting Scripture set the limits of my certainty.
If I am wrong, show from the text where I am wrong.
But mocking someone as "foppish" or "lukewarm" is not exegesis.
Elijah was certain.
The prophets of Baal were certain.
The Pharisees were certain.
Certainty itself proves nothing.
The question has always been: what do the Scriptures actually say?
Until you address the passages under discussion rather than the person discussing them, you are arguing against a caricature rather than engaging the argument itself.
Scripturally, Proverbs 15:1 is relevant: "A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger."
And James 3:17 says: "The wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated."
The irony is that a person can be completely correct in doctrine and still be completely wrong in the way he treats others (1 Cor. 13:1-2). The Bible consistently calls us to defend truth with humility, not contempt.
To postulate that we must love heretics and their heresies without restrictions and then greet them warmly and welcome them into the congregation is NOT biblical.Character is seen in actions. You clearly can't tame your own tongue. It doesn't matter what one says is true of them. It only matters what God says is true.
Instead of maligning others, perhaps try loving them. Then we will know God is operating within you as love is the fruit of the Spirit.
A promise does not become everlasting because it was made to Abraham, it becomes everlasting when God says so.I agree that the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants were given to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and their descendants.
I also agree that God does not fail to keep His promises.
Where we differ is that you continue to frame the covenants primarily around ethnic possession, while Paul frames them around Christ. The Seed is Christ (Gal. 3:16), and those who belong to Christ are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3:29). Therefore, saying Gentiles merely participate in Israel's blessings understates what Paul actually teaches.
We are not standing outside the promise looking in.
In Christ, believing Jews and believing Gentiles are fellow heirs (Eph. 3:6), fellow citizens (Eph. 2:19), one body (1 Cor. 12:13), and one new man (Eph. 2:15).
That does not require God to break His promises to Israel.
It means those promises find their fulfillment in the Messiah and in the people united to Him.
So even if the Millennium includes the fulfillment of covenant promises given to Israel, you still have not demonstrated that this requires two covenant peoples of God.
Paul repeatedly emphasizes one people in Christ, not two peoples sharing the same Messiah.
Who exactly are these "others" that you speak of who you feel are being maligned?Character is seen in actions. You clearly can't tame your own tongue. It doesn't matter what one says is true of them. It only matters what God says is true.
Instead of maligning others, perhaps try loving them. Then we will know God is operating within you as love is the fruit of the Spirit.
Dude, I'm through the gate already encouraging you to come through. Even if you believe someone is heretical, that should emit from you a sorrow for the individual. Nowhere in scripture are you exempted from loving others. Love fulfills the law. You cannot be unloving and be either walking in the Spirit or be pleasing to God. You deceive yourself.To postulate that we must love heretics and their heresies without restrictions and then greet them warmly and welcome them into the congregation is NOT biblical.
To say any thing different makes a person.....an heretic....
Despite your earnest desire to say otherwise, the gate remains narrow and way is hard.
[Mat 7:13 ESV]
13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
[2Jo 1:10-11 KJV]
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Self deceived.Who exactly are these "others" that you speak of who you feel are being maligned?
Hymenaeus? Philetus? Simon Magus? Diotrephes? Hermogenes & Phygellus?
Despite your woeful and Biblically illiterate yearnings to the contrary, the New Testament posture toward heresy remains uncompromising.Dude, I'm through the gate already encouraging you to come through. Even if you believe someone is heretical, that should emit from you a sorrow for the individual. Nowhere in scripture are you exempted from loving others. Love fulfills the law. You cannot be unloving and be either walking in the Spirit or be pleasing to God. You deceive yourself.
Oh but truly the gate you have on offer is very wide indeed. At least as wide as the Ishtar gate and just about as appealing to a legit Christian. If you know what I mean......Dude, I'm through the gate already encouraging you to come through. Even if you believe someone is heretical, that should emit from you a sorrow for the individual. Nowhere in scripture are you exempted from loving others. Love fulfills the law. You cannot be unloving and be either walking in the Spirit or be pleasing to God. You deceive yourself.