Replacement theology? Yes or No.

[Revelation1v8]

The way this post is presented there is nothing in it that I would have reason to disagree with.
it must be pointed out however that some of the promises God made to Abraham were not eternal or inherited, some were eternal and conditional and some were eternal and unconditional.
The land promise as it was made to Abraham involved the children of Jacob and was eternal, but conditional.
The condition is in Genesis 17.

Genesis 17:
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be CUT OFF FROM HIS PEOPLE; he hath broken my covenant.

That is the condition that Abraham and his family lived under in the holy land, and if any one of the males did not comply they would loose their right to stay there.
Before the children of Israel returned to the holy land, God added a longer list of conditions, on which their "right to exist" in the holy land depended (Deuteronomy 28).

AGAIN, this is how God/Jesus rectifies that situation:

Romans 11

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Zechariah 13 also shows you that God/Jesus will pour out His Holy Spirit onto them so (in my words) the veil will be lifted, they will recognize God/Jesus as their Messiah and they will mourn for the one that they lost, who will now use His Holy Spirit to turn their hearts back to Him.

Zechariah 13:

1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Zechariah 14

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

---

 

[Beekeeper]

Maybe you should go back to the conversation before the "challenge" started.

The middle wall partition was broken spiritually between Jews & Gentiles, but it hasn't been broken physically or literally yet. The Bible shows you that it will, but it doesn't reach it's fulfillment until the New Jerusalem.

Isaiah 54 shows this. During the Millennial Kingdom period on earth, there will still be people that will try to oppress the seed of Isaac again, but God/Jesus won't allow it to happen. He will allow them to live in peace, finally.

--

The middle wall of partition never needs to be broken between believers and unbelievers and never will be.
Ethnicity is not relevant to that division.
The spiritual unity between believers is all we need.

If Isaiah 54 is referring to a millennial kingdom it is the same kingdom that was in place when it was re-quoted in Galatians 4:7.
That would be the same kingdom that we are in now.
I suspect that you went off the rails when you started assuming that "the seed of Isaac" were exclusively from physical Israelite decent.

 

[Revelation1v8]

The middle wall of partition never needs to be broken between believers and unbelievers and never will be.
Ethnicity is not relevant to that division.
The spiritual unity between believers is all we need.

If Isaiah 54 is referring to a millennial kingdom it is the same kingdom that was in place when it was re-quoted in Galatians 4:7.
That would be the same kingdom that we are in now.
I suspect that you went off the rails when you started assuming that "the seed of Isaac" were exclusively from physical Israelite decent.

No, that is not the kingdom we are living in now because Israel still has "oppressors" and God/Jesus hasn't struck down every nation that has come up against them yet, like Zechariah 12 says He will.

Isaiah 54 says that God/Jesus will Himself protect Israel during the entire Millennial Kingdom period and will immediately strike down anyone again who continues to try to come up against them.

--

 

[Beekeeper]

Have you compared it against Romans 9:7-8?

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

--

Yes, and I understand it in the same context as Galatians 4.
Isaac carried a spiritual and eternal promise, as did Jacob.
Esau and Ishmael were physical children of Abraham, yet did not.
The story continues in the same way with the children of Jacob.
Not all were children of promise, but some were.
Well, it turned out later that Cornelius was in Isaac too.
So the story continues under the new covenant with the Israel of God.
many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[Revelation1v8]

The middle wall of partition never needs to be broken between believers and unbelievers and never will be.
Ethnicity is not relevant to that division.
The spiritual unity between believers is all we need.

Another reason we know that we aren't living in the current kingdom is because of what Paul said AGAIN here:

Romans 11: 28 - As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

The seed is still considered "the enemy" by the nations. While we are all made one SPIRITUALLY through Jesus, they are still considered the enemy until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, like verse 25 says, and until God/Jesus pours out His Holy Spirit on them to lift the veil and cleanse them of their sins. All future. Once it happens, we will all then be LITERALLY AND PHYSICALLY united.

--

 

[Revelation1v8]

Yes, and I understand it in the same context as Galatians 4.
Isaac carried a spiritual and eternal promise, as did Jacob.
Esau and Ishmael were physical children of Abraham, yet did not.
The story continues in the same way with the children of Jacob.
Not all were children of promise, but some were.
Well, it turned out later that Cornelius was in Isaac too.
So the story continues under the new covenant with the Israel of God.
many are called, but few are chosen.

That's true, but it still doesn't cover the entirety of the situation in which things will have to happen in order to make it so, like Romans 11:25-28 suggests will have to happen. And like Zechariah 12, 13, & 14 says will happen.

--

 

[Beekeeper]

No, that is not the kingdom we are living in now because Israel still has "oppressors" and God/Jesus hasn't struck down every nation that has come up against them yet, like Zechariah 12 says He will.

Isaiah 54 says that God/Jesus will Himself protect Israel during the entire Millennial Kingdom period and will immediately strike down anyone again who continues to try to come up against them.

--

Zechariah 12 is about the same period of time that Ezekiel 38 and 39 is about.
You have been sifting through words of prophesy in search of words that you can use to support a fictitious prediction.
You have not taken care to find out what they really mean for fear of taking puff out of your theory.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Zechariah 12 is about the same period of time that Ezekiel 38 and 39 is about.
You have been sifting through words of prophesy in search of words that you can use to support a fictitious prediction.
You have not taken care to find out what they really mean for fear of taking puff out of your theory.

No, what I've been pointing out to you is how Zechariah 12 has NOT reached it's final fulfillment yet. We know this by reading Zechariah 13 and 14 how Zechariah 12 will happen on a much larger scale and for the LAST time.

Jesus has NOT cut down ALL of the nations who have EVER come up against Jerusalem yet.

--

 

[OMC]

Indeed, the wisdom from above IS pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated. BUT only for those with honest hearts who sincerely lambano/dechomai the message and hold it in integrity. And are careful to guard it and proclaim it accurately.

Having said that, Christ who is the Prince of Peace is going to absolutely wreck the heretics, frauds and posers.
Did you actually think that He was going to welcome those that Paul, Peter, Jude and John excoriated and warned us about?

[Rev 3:3, 16 KJV]
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. ...

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

[Mat 8:12 KJV] – 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Mat 22:13 KJV] – 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Mat 24:51 KJV] – 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Mat 25:30 KJV] – 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Luk 13:27 KJV] – 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity.

[Luk 13:28 KJV] – 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.

I agree completely that Christ will judge heretics, false teachers, hypocrites, and workers of iniquity.
The passages you quoted prove that.
What they do not prove is that everyone who disagrees with your prophetic conclusions belongs in those categories.

 

[OMC]

Rev.19 opens with praise to God for His rigteous judgement of the great whore.
I also take.this as a 1st century time marker, and do not attribute white horse Jesus to the final judgement but to a judgement that occured in the time.
That also means that Jesus and His bride are already married!

I don't think Revelation 19 allows me to place the entire chapter in the first century.
The reason is that the rider on the white horse is described as the One called "The Word of God" (Rev. 19:13), the One who "shall rule them with a rod of iron" (Rev. 19:15), and "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS" (Rev. 19:16).
Furthermore, the beast and false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20), which Scripture then connects to events immediately preceding the thousand years of Revelation 20.
As for the marriage, Revelation 19:7 says, "the marriage of the Lamb is come," which certainly indicates the bride is united with Christ. However, Revelation 21:9 still has the angel saying, "Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife," suggesting the bride remains a major theme beyond chapter 19.
What I find interesting is not that the marriage exists, but that Revelation continues to unfold aspects of the bride after the marriage announcement.
Therefore, I can agree that Christ and His bride are presented as united, but I do not think Revelation 19 by itself proves the entire white-horse scene was exhausted in the first century.
The chapter seems to be tied to events that continue directly into Revelation 20 and beyond.
The real question is how Revelation's visions relate to one another chronologically, and that requires following the text carefully rather than assuming either a fully first-century fulfillment or a fully future fulfillment before examining the details.

 

[OMC]

Another reason we know that we aren't living in the current kingdom is because of what Paul said AGAIN here:

Romans 11: 28 - As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

The seed is still considered "the enemy" by the nations. While we are all made one SPIRITUALLY through Jesus, they are still considered the enemy until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, like verse 25 says, and until God/Jesus pours out His Holy Spirit on them to lift the veil and cleanse them of their sins. All future. Once it happens, we will all then be LITERALLY AND PHYSICALLY united.

--

Israel's blindness is temporary (Rom. 11:25).
Israel's future salvation is promised (Rom. 11:26-27).
Their election remains because of the fathers (Rom. 11:28-29).
Zechariah describes a future repentance, cleansing, and restoration (Zech. 12-14).
Believing Jews and Gentiles are already one in Christ spiritually (Eph. 2:14-16; Eph. 3:6).
The complete manifestation of God's victory and unity awaits the future consummation when every enemy is put under Christ's feet (1 Cor. 15:25-28).

 

[Beekeeper]

No, what I've been pointing out to you is how Zechariah 12 has NOT reached it's final fulfillment yet. We know this by reading Zechariah 13 and 14 how Zechariah 12 will happen on a much larger scale and for the LAST time.

Jesus has NOT cut down ALL of the nations who have EVER come up against Jerusalem yet.

--

Zechariah13 has time stamps all over it.
It is not your future kingdom, in does not even get out of BC.
The "House of David" and "inhabitants of Jerusalem" are the tribes of Ephraim and Judah.
We continue to read about the law of Moses being zealously implemented in the land, including death penalties for false prophets.
If we are looking for a bloody event to account for vs. 7 and 8 that would have to be the much ignored one that came to pass in that time.

White horse Jesus in Rev. 19 came against Jerusalem Himself, so if it was all still about earthly Jerusalem He would have to cut down Himself.

 

[Revelation1v8]

Zechariah13 has time stamps all over it.
It is not your future kingdom, in does not even get out of BC.
The "House of David" and "inhabitants of Jerusalem" are the tribes of Ephraim and Judah.
We continue to read about the law of Moses being zealously implemented in the land, including death penalties for false prophets.
If we are looking for a bloody event to account for vs. 7 and 8 that would have to be the much ignored one that came to pass in that time.

White horse Jesus in Rev. 19 came against Jerusalem Himself, so if it was all still about earthly Jerusalem He would have to cut down Himself.

Really?

When did any of them ask Jesus this?

Zechariah 13:6 - And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

--

 

[OMC]

Zechariah13 has time stamps all over it.
It is not your future kingdom, in does not even get out of BC.
The "House of David" and "inhabitants of Jerusalem" are the tribes of Ephraim and Judah.
We continue to read about the law of Moses being zealously implemented in the land, including death penalties for false prophets.
If we are looking for a bloody event to account for vs. 7 and 8 that would have to be the much ignored one that came to pass in that time.

White horse Jesus in Rev. 19 came against Jerusalem Himself, so if it was all still about earthly Jerusalem He would have to cut down Himself

Brother, Please understand that I am not trying to anger you or cause issues, the difficulty I have with that reading is that Zechariah 13 does not naturally stop in the first century and stay there.
Zechariah 12, 13, and 14 read as a connected prophecy.
In Zechariah 12:9 the Lord says, "I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem."
In Zechariah 12:10 Israel looks upon the One they pierced and mourns.
In Zechariah 13:1 a fountain is opened for sin and uncleanness.
In Zechariah 13:9 the refined remnant says, "The LORD is my God."
Then Zechariah 14:9 declares, "The LORD shall be king over all the earth."
Whatever interpretation we adopt must account for all of those statements together.
I agree that parts of Zechariah may have had historical relevance near the prophet's own era, but I do not see how the complete destruction of all nations coming against Jerusalem, the national repentance described, and the LORD reigning over all the earth have reached their final fulfillment.
Likewise, if Revelation 19 is entirely exhausted in the first century, then I would need an explanation for why its events flow directly into Revelation 20 and the thousand years that follow.
My concern is not with preserving a system, but with allowing Zechariah 12-14 to speak as a unified prophecy and asking whether the full scope of what it describes has actually happened yet.

 

[Beekeeper]

I don't think Revelation 19 allows me to place the entire chapter in the first century.
The reason is that the rider on the white horse is described as the One called "The Word of God" (Rev. 19:13), the One who "shall rule them with a rod of iron" (Rev. 19:15), and "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS" (Rev. 19:16).

That identifies the rider as Jesus, and that is acknowledged.

Furthermore, the beast and false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20), which Scripture then connects to events immediately preceding the thousand years of Revelation 20.

Are you assuming that this reign is in the future?
Do you think it is heavenly or earthly?
Who is the king of kings right now?

 

[Beekeeper]

Really?

When did any of them ask Jesus this?

Zechariah 13:6 - And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

--

Did Jesus ever make an excuse like that for His wounds?
Was He a false prophet?

Zechariah 13:3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

The subject matter here is about false prophets.
Sounds like the dude was cutting himself to impress people, and just doesn't want to be slaughtered by Mom and Dad.

 

[OMC]

That identifies the rider as Jesus, and that is acknowledged.

Are you assuming that this reign is in the future?
Do you think it is heavenly or earthly?
Who is the king of kings right now?

Christ is King of kings right now.
Scripture is explicit about that (Rev. 17:14; 19:16).
He is seated at the right hand of God right now (Ps. 110:1; Acts 2:33-36).
So the question is not whether Christ reigns.
The question is whether every aspect of His reign has reached its final manifestation.
Paul says Christ "must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet" (1 Cor. 15:25).
He then says, "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (1 Cor. 15:26).
Since death still exists, Scripture itself shows there is a difference between Christ's present reign and the completed victory of that reign.
Therefore, I would not deny that Christ reigns now.
What I question is whether Revelation 19, 20, and related passages describe events that are already exhausted in the first century when Scripture continues to speak of enemies yet to be subdued, death yet to be destroyed, Israel's blindness yet to be removed (Rom. 11:25-27), and the Lord's universal reign over the earth as described in Zechariah 14:9.
So yes, Christ is King right now.
The debate is over whether all the prophecies connected to His reign have already reached their final fulfillment.
Scripture itself seems to indicate that they have not.

 

[Revelation1v8]

That identifies the rider as Jesus, and that is acknowledged.

Are you assuming that this reign is in the future?
Do you think it is heavenly or earthly?
Who is the king of kings right now?

The question you need to ask yourself with regards to Revelation 19 is:

When did the kings of the earth try to fight God/Jesus as King of Kings, and His army of saints, that He brings with Him when He returns? Has He ruled over them with a rod of iron yet? No, it will happen during the Millennial Kingdom period on the earth. That's what the 1,000 years is for that is mentioned in Revelation 20.

Revelation 19:14-29

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

 

[cv5]

The question you need to ask yourself with regards to Revelation 19 is:

When did the kings of the earth try to fight God/Jesus as King of Kings, and His army of saints, that He brings with Him when He returns? Has He ruled over them with a rod of iron yet? No, it will happen during the Millennial Kingdom period on the earth. That's what the 1,000 years is for that is mentioned in Revelation 20.

Revelation 19:14-29

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

He ruled over them with a rod of iron yet? No

Those passages ruin the preterist party. So of course they are never invoked.

 

[cv5]

The middle wall of partition was broken between Jews and Gentiles in Jesus, not Christians and modern Israel.

That doctrine is done and gone forever post Church age post pre-trib rapture.
Israel the Nation is then the focus of God's salvific attention.