Requirements of Salvation

[Guojing]

I think Jesus said it best.

He told them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the Good News to every creature. He who believes and is immersed shall be saved, but he who does not believe shall be condemned" (Mark 16:15-16).

A good example is the above. EF, you are trying to say that Jesus meant exactly what he is saying above.

But others who disagree with you are trying to say, "No no no, this was what Jesus REALLY meant", and then they proceed to insert Paul's point of view into the above.

 

[EternalFire]

Where is the line in the sand drawn on saved and condemned? *See John 3:18.

Where Jesus drew it: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16).

There is a clear example of this in Acts 16:30-34 (ESV):

“Then he [the jailer] brought them [Paul and Silas] out and said, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ And they said, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’ And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.”

 

[EternalFire]

A good example is the above. EF, you are trying to say that Jesus meant exactly what he is saying above.

But others who disagree with you are trying to say, "No no no, this was what Jesus REALLY meant", and then they proceed to insert Paul's point of view into the above.

It is interesting, indeed, how that happens, Guojing. Paul's point of view is absolutely in line with what Jesus said, as seen from this clear example in Acts 16:30-34 (ESV):

“Then he [the jailer] brought them [Paul and Silas] out and said, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ And they said, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’ And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.”

 

[Guojing]

It is interesting, indeed, how that happens, Guojing. Paul's point of view is absolutely in line with what Jesus said, as seen from this clear example in Acts 16:30-34 (ESV):

“Then he [the jailer] brought them [Paul and Silas] out and said, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ And they said, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’ And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.”

You may think Paul agrees with you, but I think those who disagree with you will use that same point in Acts 16 and say, "What Jesus really meant was that those who believe and are hence saved, SHOULD THEREFORE be baptized."

What you think Mark 16:16 is saying is that A + B = C
What your critics are trying to correct you is that Mark 16:16 REALLY MEANT is A = C + B

 

[EternalFire]

You may think Paul agrees with you, but I think those who disagree with you will use that same point in Acts 16 and say, "What Jesus really meant was that those who believe and are hence saved, SHOULD THEREFORE be baptized."

What you think Mark 16:16 is saying is that A + B = C
What your critics are trying to correct you is that Mark 16:16 REALLY MEANT is A = C + B

I get what you're communicating. I'll stick with what Jesus said and the order in which he said it.

 

[mailmandan]

Where Jesus drew it: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16).

Where Jesus drew it: John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *What happened to baptism?

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

There is a clear example of this in Acts 16:30-34 (ESV):

“Then he [the jailer] brought them [Paul and Silas] out and said, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ And they said, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’ And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.”

Acts 16:30 - And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” *Notice the answer was not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and get water baptized and you will be saved. Water baptism "followed" believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and salvation, just as it did in (Acts 10:43-48).

 

[hornetguy]

Where Jesus drew it: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16).

There is a clear example of this in Acts 16:30-34 (ESV):

“Then he [the jailer] brought them [Paul and Silas] out and said, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ And they said, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’ And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.”

Yes, you are correct. There is an even clearer example... in Paul himself. When he had is vision and saw Jesus on the road to Damascus, he was blinded, and remained so for three days. When Ananias came to lay hands on him, and he regained his sight, what was the thing he did IMMEDIATELY? Before even eating or drinking (after doing without for 3 DAYS, mind you) He went and was baptized.

Does anyone claim Paul was "doing a work" there? Does anyone think Paul did not see the necessity of baptism in the saving process?

 

[Lightskin]

I made this because there are people preaching in these final years of the world, teaching that
just by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ you can be saved. If it was that easy we wouldn't have scriptures
warning us that few will be saved and that the path to eternal life is narrow, of which few be there that find it.

A holy and sanctified life lived in strict obedience unto the commandments and precepts taught in the word of God,
the Holy Bible, is required of all those that seek the salvation of their souls. This is what the Bible is speaking
of when it says that we must be born again. Born again means to be transformed by God into a new moral life.

John 3:3 KJB
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except
a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

If all we had to do was simply believe, demons and the wicked heathen would be saved. For there are
innumerable people in this world that war against God and His saints and know the truth.

James 2:19
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

If all we had to do was believe then this verse below would have no meaning.

Matthew 7:14
"because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

We see from the verse below that they that do the will of God, that keep His commandments and precepts
taught in the word of God, the Holy Bible, will be saved. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ that He
is the true messiah, that He really is God in the flesh, is the absolute first step anyone must take on the
path of salvation. It is the first commandment of God we must obey, to simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
For why would anyone even begin to consider keeping His commandments and obey Him if you didn't believe He
was who He said He was.

Matthew 7:21
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the
will of my Father which is in heaven."

When it says to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ it should always be accompanied with the explanation that
obedience, love and duty to and for Him is also required in this faith.

James 2:17
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

We see that faith (trust) in God is really false faith without doing the works of God. What works are these?
These works are the commandments and precepts taught in the word of God. For example, overcoming the world,
and the lusts there of, giving alms, preaching the truth of Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible, encouraging one another, loving one another,
honoring your parents, not hating anyone, not stealing, etc. These are just a few of the many holy commandments
given to us by God in the Holy Bible.

1 John 2:17
"And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

If the entire Bible could be summed up in one verse I would choose the following.

Ecclesiastes 12:13
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

Understanding faith and grace.
Faith means to have trust and hope in God.
Grace means the favor of God.
To have faith (trust) in God you must have a good conscious toward Him.
To have a good conscious toward God you must obey Him.
Faith and obedience go hand in hand.
If you are obedient to God's commandments and precepts He will give you true faith, real trust in Him.
He will show you that you can trust in Him by the protection of His Spirit (the Holy Spirit).
Grace and obedience also go hand in hand.
If you are obedient, the grace (favor) of God will be upon you and all that you do.

1 Peter 3:21
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the
filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

The above verse is not saying that baptism literally saves us. It is saying that by being baptized
you are keeping God's commandment which will allow you to begin to have a good conscience towards
God because of your obedience. Just as believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is a commandment, so also is baptism.
Continue seeking God's will in all that you do to continue with a good conscience toward God.

If you want to be saved from the damnation of Hell, get in the word of God,
start in the New Testament at the gospel of
Matthew, in a King James Bible (PDF above) and
read every word and do exactly as God's word teaches you.

Someone’s Catholic.

 

[notuptome]

Yes, you are correct. There is an even clearer example... in Paul himself. When he had is vision and saw Jesus on the road to Damascus, he was blinded, and remained so for three days. When Ananias came to lay hands on him, and he regained his sight, what was the thing he did IMMEDIATELY? Before even eating or drinking (after doing without for 3 DAYS, mind you) He went and was baptized.

Does anyone claim Paul was "doing a work" there? Does anyone think Paul did not see the necessity of baptism in the saving process?

At what point was Paul saved? Water baptism is certainly the first step in the sanctification process.

Philip in Acts 8 said to the eunuch that if he believed he mayest get water baptized. Not must but is permitted to receive water baptism.

The required baptism is Holy Spirit baptism and that can only be administered by Christ the moment we believe.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[EternalFire]

Where Jesus drew it: John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *What happened to baptism?

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.


Acts 16:30 - And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” *Notice the answer was not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and get water baptized and you will be saved. Water baptism "followed" believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and salvation, just as it did in (Acts 10:43-48).

Of course baptism follows believing, just as Jesus said: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.” He did not say, “Whoever is baptized and believes will be saved.”

 

[mailmandan]

I get what you're communicating. I'll stick with what Jesus said and the order in which he said it.

I’ll stick with what Jesus said in Mark 16:16 “in keeping in harmony with the second clause” and in harmony with what He said in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47: 11:25,26).

 

[mailmandan]

Of course baptism follows believing, just as Jesus said: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.” He did not say, “Whoever is baptized and believes will be saved.”

Jesus did not say that whoever is not baptized will be condemned in Mark 1616, so my argument stands. Also, did Jesus forget to mention baptism in John 3:15,16,28; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? What is the one requirement that Jesus mentioned in those nine different verses? BELIEVES.

 

[ScottyPchristian]

I made this because there are people preaching in these final years of the world, teaching that
just by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ you can be saved. If it was that easy we wouldn't have scriptures
warning us that few will be saved and that the path to eternal life is narrow, of which few be there that find it.

A holy and sanctified life lived in strict obedience unto the commandments and precepts taught in the word of God,
the Holy Bible, is required of all those that seek the salvation of their souls. This is what the Bible is speaking
of when it says that we must be born again. Born again means to be transformed by God into a new moral life.

John 3:3 KJB
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except
a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

If all we had to do was simply believe, demons and the wicked heathen would be saved. For there are
innumerable people in this world that war against God and His saints and know the truth.

James 2:19
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."

If all we had to do was believe then this verse below would have no meaning.

Matthew 7:14
"because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

We see from the verse below that they that do the will of God, that keep His commandments and precepts
taught in the word of God, the Holy Bible, will be saved. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ that He
is the true messiah, that He really is God in the flesh, is the absolute first step anyone must take on the
path of salvation. It is the first commandment of God we must obey, to simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
For why would anyone even begin to consider keeping His commandments and obey Him if you didn't believe He
was who He said He was.

Matthew 7:21
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the
will of my Father which is in heaven."

When it says to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ it should always be accompanied with the explanation that
obedience, love and duty to and for Him is also required in this faith.

James 2:17
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

We see that faith (trust) in God is really false faith without doing the works of God. What works are these?
These works are the commandments and precepts taught in the word of God. For example, overcoming the world,
and the lusts there of, giving alms, preaching the truth of Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible, encouraging one another, loving one another,
honoring your parents, not hating anyone, not stealing, etc. These are just a few of the many holy commandments
given to us by God in the Holy Bible.

1 John 2:17
"And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."

If the entire Bible could be summed up in one verse I would choose the following.

Ecclesiastes 12:13
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

Understanding faith and grace.
Faith means to have trust and hope in God.
Grace means the favor of God.
To have faith (trust) in God you must have a good conscious toward Him.
To have a good conscious toward God you must obey Him.
Faith and obedience go hand in hand.
If you are obedient to God's commandments and precepts He will give you true faith, real trust in Him.
He will show you that you can trust in Him by the protection of His Spirit (the Holy Spirit).
Grace and obedience also go hand in hand.
If you are obedient, the grace (favor) of God will be upon you and all that you do.

1 Peter 3:21
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the
filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

The above verse is not saying that baptism literally saves us. It is saying that by being baptized
you are keeping God's commandment which will allow you to begin to have a good conscience towards
God because of your obedience. Just as believing on the Lord Jesus Christ is a commandment, so also is baptism.
Continue seeking God's will in all that you do to continue with a good conscience toward God.

If you want to be saved from the damnation of Hell, get in the word of God,
start in the New Testament at the gospel of
Matthew, in a King James Bible (PDF above) and
read every word and do exactly as God's word teaches you.

Jesus said, believe in Me and you shall be saved. So it's that simple, everyone who believes in Jesus will be saved.
There's a big difference in believing that someone exists and believing in them. I believe that Donald Trump exists and that he is the best president ever, but I don't believe in everything he says and does.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Controversial indeed. Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to saving faith in Christ, as all works must be.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Water baptism is a work and we are saved through faith, not works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) In Matthew 3:13-15, we read - Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?” But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him. Water baptism is a work of righteousness and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.. (Titus 3:5)

Baptism follows believing the gospel, but it is not a part of the gospel itself (1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4). There are a handful of alleged prooftexts which are often cited in an effort to prove that the Bible makes baptism mandatory for salvation. A careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely required for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts only prove that baptism is associated with salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

Praise the Lord!

Not all of mankind have the ability to believe in the things of the Spirit, 1 Cor 2:14. Romans 3:22, The righteousness of God, which is by FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST unto all and upon ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE. Verse 23, For ALL (of those that believe) have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Verse 24, Being justified (all that believe) freely by his grace.

Only those that have the ability (by being born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) to discern the things of the Spirit will believe.

Those mentioned in Rom 4:5-6, that BELIEVETH, are those who have been born again and have the ability to discern the things of the Spirit, which does not include all of mankind.

So baptism does not save you eternally and neither does believing save you eternally, but the thing that does save you eternally is the sovereign grace of God, without any help from man, When he transforms the spiritually dead to become spiritually alive by putting his Holy Spirit within them, when they are born again, Eph 2.

 

[JBTN]

Of course baptism follows believing, just as Jesus said: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.” He did not say, “Whoever is baptized and believes will be saved.”

1 John 5:1 ESV

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

Notice that this verse places the new birth in the past if you believe. What are your thoughts on this? I cannot see how this verse can be true if water baptism is a requirement for salvation.

See also:

1 John 5:13 ESV

I write these things to you who believe in the Son of God, that your may know that you have eternal life.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Jesus said, believe in Me and you shall be saved. So it's that simple, everyone who believes in Jesus will be saved.
There's a big difference in believing that someone exists and believing in them. I believe that Donald Trump exists and that he is the best president ever, but I don't believe in everything he says and does.

Salvation as interpreted in Greek means "deliverance". There is a deliverance when we believe, but it is not eternal deliverance, but a deliverance that we receive as we sojourn here in this world. The reason the "eternal salvation by good works people) believe the way that they do, is because they do not understand how to interpret the two different deliverances.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

If water baptism is required for salvation why did Jesus shed His blood on Calvary?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Salvation, according to Greek interpretation means "a deliverance". We are delivered (saved) in being baptised, but it does not deliver us eternally, we are delivered (saved) by our obedience to be baptised as we sojourn here in this world.

You will never get the scriptures to harmonize unless you are able to interpret the "deliverances" in their context and harmonizing them with the other scriptures.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

1 John 5:1 ESV

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

Notice that this verse places the new birth in the past if you believe. What are your thoughts on this? I cannot see how this verse can be true if water baptism is a requirement for salvation.

See also:

1 John 5:13 ESV

I write these things to you who believe in the Son of God, that your may know that you have eternal life.

JBTN, I agree with your post. Salvation according to Greek interpretation means "a deliverance". There is a salvation (deliverance) in following God's command to be baptised, but it is not an eternal deliverance, but a deliverance that we receive, as we sojourn here in this world by obeying his commandment.

 

[ScottyPchristian]

Salvation as interpreted in Greek means "deliverance". There is a deliverance when we believe, but it is not eternal deliverance, but a deliverance that we receive as we sojourn here in this world. The reason the "eternal salvation by good works people) believe the way that they do, is because they do not understand how to interpret the two different deliverances.

There are many words used to describe salvation. I'm talking about the one moment in a persons life, where God saves them on the spot. So the person has absolutely no power over God, we are His creation and He saves us if He wants to. All we bring to the table is a stinking, sinful corpse and He does the rest.
If salvation was in our hands, then nobody would be saved as we all hate God and love sin before He saves us. You know the thief on the cross, didn't get the chance to do his penance or pray the rosary 50 times a day for 3 weeks but God saved Him none the less.

 

[crossnote]

The problem I see with the other 2 approaches is that people always need to explain what Jesus/Paul/James really meant, based on whichever side one choose to use to read into the other.

If they don't mean what they say, why don't they just say what they mean is the common remark.

Well, there are nothing wrong with convictions but hopefully they are formulated by one's own understanding of Scripture and not another's.