Resource pool for a christian commune on 100 or so acres??

[Moses_Young]

This sparked my curiosity...

https://amishamerica.com/do-amish-pay-taxes/

https://christianityfaq.com/do-amish-pay-taxes/

Not that Google is a reliable source of course, but all the headlines that popped up said that they do?

Interesting topic, especially since I used to live a few hours from a large Amish community.

I'm not an expert, but I believe that the Amish don't accept social security numbers. As they don't have social security numbers, they don't get money from the government, but it probably means the IRS also has nothing to track them down to pay income tax? Probably they still pay sales tax etc. when they buy.

 

[seoulsearch]

I'm not an expert, but I believe that the Amish don't accept social security numbers. As they don't have social security numbers, they don't get money from the government, but it probably means the IRS also has nothing to track them down to pay income tax? Probably they still pay sales tax etc. when they buy.

This is really a fascinating subject.

A quick Google search says that the leaders typically do have SSN's in order to be able to open bank accounts, etc., and that some members have SSN's and some don't (apparently, under certain conditions, they can apply for an exemption.)

The other articles I looked at earlier said that they do indeed pay income and property taxes, but can claim exemption to paying things like social security, because this also means that they do not claim or receive any benefits from such programs.

 

[seoulsearch]

I'm not an expert, but I believe that the Amish don't accept social security numbers. As they don't have social security numbers, they don't get money from the government, but it probably means the IRS also has nothing to track them down to pay income tax? Probably they still pay sales tax etc. when they buy.

I had also mentioned in another post that this subject interested me because I used to live a few hours from an Amish community, and it wasn't uncommon to see their buggies chugging on down the road.

The other reason is that many years ago, I knew a girl who was adopted from Korea into an Amish community by an Amish family, so I'm assuming her parents had to have had some kind of legal proof of existence (such as SSN's) in order to do that, though I don't know any of the details.

Once she was of age, she left the Amish community and integrated herself into the everyday world. I don't know if she had an SSN before or after leaving the community, but I know the tour I met her on would not have allowed her to go without one, or at least its equivalent.

 

[Moses_Young]

I had also mentioned in another post that this subject interested me because I used to live a few hours from an Amish community, and it wasn't uncommon to see their buggies chugging on down the road.

The other reason is that many years ago, I knew a girl who was adopted from Korea into an Amish community by an Amish family, so I'm assuming her parents had to have had some kind of legal proof of existence (such as SSN's) in order to do that, though I don't know any of the details.

Once she was of age, she left the Amish community and integrated herself into the everyday world. I don't know if she had an SSN before or after leaving the community, but I know the tour I met her on would not have allowed her to go without one, or at least its equivalent.

There are degrees of Amish, also. Some don't use electricity, some do. Some are okay with some forms of power, but not others. I suspect it may be the same with government interventions... Maybe?

 

[shittim]

good info here- https://www.primalsurvivor.net/much-land-need-self-sufficient/

A lot is based on how self sufficient do you want to be? There is a need for exchange for goods and services. When some in indian tribes reached old age without children I have read where it was said of the couple, "they were reduced to hunting rabbits".

 

[JohnDB]

There are degrees of Amish, also. Some don't use electricity, some do. Some are okay with some forms of power, but not others. I suspect it may be the same with government interventions... Maybe?

They are called Mennonite. Usually there is a Mennonite community near every Amish community. Because the two groups have a peaceful coexistence with each other and a beneficial relationship.

Mennonites can use minimal electricity and communications. But their descriptions of flaunting Avarice are very different than what I would describe it as....so does the rest of the world.

 

[shittim]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish

there around 4 or 5 perhaps more, here we see some with tractors but with steel wheels, not rubber, some use spray on the crops but it is sprayed from a wagon pulled by horses.
Some need to do all the tilling with horses.

 

[Lynx]

There are degrees of Amish, also. Some don't use electricity, some do. Some are okay with some forms of power, but not others. I suspect it may be the same with government interventions... Maybe?

Shhhh! Don't tell Weird Al that. It would ruin his song.

 

[BeeThePeace]

100 acres is insufficient land to feed, clothe, and house 100 people.

Ten times that much might get them subsistence living. 50 times and now you are talking.

People eat a LOT...so do livestock. And you are going to want a variety of livestock from chickens, pork, beef, and fish. (Milk, cheeses, and eggs) Then there's the wheat for bread, oats for oatmeal, and corn. Nevermind rice and soybeans.
Apiaries for honeybees. Trees for fruits and nuts.

Now all these groceries require fertilizers and pesticides. Otherwise you flat out will not get a crop. The bugs and birds will consume it all.

So since the livestock will produce manure...you can use that...but it still won't be a sufficient amount. You will need more. That means $$$. Meaning you need more land to farm to make enough of a profit just to buy diesel and farm equipment that will need maintenance every year. (More $$$)

1,000 acre farm of two crops usually works out for six people on a regular basis...no one gets rich but you can make a living. That's what happens today. Those are the numbers.

So I don't see a farm commune working out. They already exist in rural areas today but not as a commune...but as regular God fearing people living in harmony. Strangers are given the one squinted eye routine. And their biggest fights are usually over John Deer or the other brands.

https://offgridworld.com/60000lbs-of-organic-food-per-acre/

60,000lbs of Organic Food Per Acre!


Posted on Last updated: 04/24/2021

 

[JohnDB]

https://offgridworld.com/60000lbs-of-organic-food-per-acre/

60,000lbs of Organic Food Per Acre!


Posted on Last updated: 04/24/2021

There are issues with the types and varieties of foods grown in that farming model.

First off not all of the foods grown have a strong desire or market. Tomatoes do...but kale does not.

Wheat and corn definitely have a strong place in the market. So do potatoes. Potatoes are the number one vegetable in the marketplace. Onions are a necessity as well as carrots and beans.

Rice and beans are the most consumed vegetables and legumes in the world.

Then there's the necessity for raising livestock. Meat and dairy products. Not to mention eggs from poultry.

And a pair of pigs for bacon and hams....also to utilize the weeding and pruning trims. They will get fat on all the clippings.

 

[Mii]

It poses an interesting question as to whom God would want those in the bubble to be reaching out to and serving.

Or would it be another Noah's Ark situation, leaving all outsiders to fend for themselves?

Why can't you use the radio/internet/phone? There are a lot of things you can do from a distance.

What about people that donate money to people they haven't met in person? Or even the people that run a hotline?

It's not like it would be closed to outsiders. A lot of churches are basically bubbles and in person ministry is sometimes limited to whoever shows up. Whoever actually "lives" there would be another matter and biblically this has support. You can have a sanctuary open one day of the week to the public and be semi-private at other times. It's a different approach but I wouldn't say you are starting a moon colony or something.



I don't like the word "commune" though OP. It tends to have negative connotations. More like a "camp" or retreat center. Same concept and some function like that. There are a LOT of particulars to discuss about this idea and you may look into what already exists in that capacity.


If you can answer why you wouldn't join yourself to such a system that already exists then I'll discuss it further. I have definitely given a LOT of thought to this concept and it's certainly worth consideration.

 

[Mii]

also, a commune is not entrepeuneurial, it will eventually turn into a dictatorship when some crazy person, ( and it just takes ONE nut) who thinks he or she is the guru of it....

I disagree that this will unilaterally occur. I think it is definitely a strong possibility without checks and balances, accountability, Christ as the head and consistently taking inventory but churches can have this same problem. It would certainly take much forethought on how to tackle such a situation.

 

[epicnerpmada]

I disagree that this will unilaterally occur. I think it is definitely a strong possibility without checks and balances, accountability, Christ as the head and consistently taking inventory but churches can have this same problem. It would certainly take much forethought on how to tackle such a situation.

Yeah lol after this thread went on for a little bit I regretted using the word commune, I had more of a....community in mind, like a neighborhood. A couple of families do one thing, some do others, it would work like a system or a really small town.
I haven't done that (looking into a preexisting one) because, I'm not motivated enough to do that, busy with my part in the rat race, and as it stands I don't have the necessary skills and knowledge, and up to this point it's only been a fantasy to me. Something I thought of when I was a child.

 

[Mii]

Yeah lol after this thread went on for a little bit I regretted using the word commune, I had more of a....community in mind, like a neighborhood. A couple of families do one thing, some do others, it would work like a system or a really small town.
I haven't done that (looking into a preexisting one) because, I'm not motivated enough to do that, busy with my part in the rat race, and as it stands I don't have the necessary skills and knowledge, and up to this point it's only been a fantasy to me. Something I thought of when I was a child.

I've also had this dream for a long time. "building" loosely I've had since I was a child and those childhood dreams have a lot of practicality today.

I typed a very long post about this that took me probably an hour but Idk if I really should dump a bunch of information on what would be necessary "unnecessarily"

I've simulated this before many times. I'll consider some further engagement tomorrow perhaps. I get a bit bitter when I spend hundreds (if not thousands) of hours thinking about something and even doing real research into it and it not going anywhere. Maybe it will someday and all of that isn't entirely useless but I guess the "heavy lifting" of tracking down enough data to woo reticent investors isn't something I'm willing to do without a more direct leading.


If there's some more community interest on here I'll engage further for sure. Mostly this concept is extremely difficult to interest people in to the point of groundbreaking. Maybe there's good reason for that and maybe it isn't worth living an hour away from your family or 8 hours or whatever it might end up being. I'm not alright with living "mostly" alone and just in general stimulating community in my day to day life is reallly hard.

a tiny bit of fellowship before/after church and a little bit at bible studies isn't enough for me. CC fills a little bit of that void but we can't have a cookout. We can't play volleyball. We can't even play a game of monopoly or something or build some birdhouses together. Have fun with a community garden or share in some really cool experiences that I've had to have mostly by myself. It's sad to me and it seems so unnecessary. Time will tell.

 

[Lanolin]

100 acres is insufficient land to feed, clothe, and house 100 people.

Ten times that much might get them subsistence living. 50 times and now you are talking.

People eat a LOT...so do livestock. And you are going to want a variety of livestock from chickens, pork, beef, and fish. (Milk, cheeses, and eggs) Then there's the wheat for bread, oats for oatmeal, and corn. Nevermind rice and soybeans.
Apiaries for honeybees. Trees for fruits and nuts.

Now all these groceries require fertilizers and pesticides. Otherwise you flat out will not get a crop. The bugs and birds will consume it all.

So since the livestock will produce manure...you can use that...but it still won't be a sufficient amount. You will need more. That means $$$. Meaning you need more land to farm to make enough of a profit just to buy diesel and farm equipment that will need maintenance every year. (More $$$)

1,000 acre farm of two crops usually works out for six people on a regular basis...no one gets rich but you can make a living. That's what happens today. Those are the numbers.

So I don't see a farm commune working out. They already exist in rural areas today but not as a commune...but as regular God fearing people living in harmony. Strangers are given the one squinted eye routine. And their biggest fights are usually over John Deer or the other brands.

actually no
it will not work if you life an american lifestyle
you need to be a small farmer, everyone can live reasonably on 1/4 acre growing own food and not eating unnecessary things, and leaving some land for hunting and fishing grounds.

but US people just dont know how to live like this it seems

 

[Lanolin]

I dont think theres anything necessarily wrong with subsistence lifestyle if thats what you are happy doing
but needs to be sustainable. or will collapse.

Gloriavale, I recall sold sphagnum moss that they could gather out of the forest, not sure if they replaced it

BUT they abused their women badly so..dont think anyone wants to join them anytime soon

 

[Lanolin]

oh also they didnt let people leave thats what turned them into a cult

if its. agated community you mean theres plenty of those. rich retired ppl live in them, and some are christian retirement villages

dont need 100 acres though they live in 2 bedroom cottages or apartments.

quakers have settlements too but they also open up their meeting houses to visiting friends

 

[JohnDB]

actually no
it will not work if you life an american lifestyle
you need to be a small farmer, everyone can live reasonably on 1/4 acre growing own food and not eating unnecessary things, and leaving some land for hunting and fishing grounds.

but US people just dont know how to live like this it seems

Especially if you don't have to.
Why should you live so meagerly if you don't have to? It is hard on your body. Shortened lifespan...knees and backs that go bad from all that hard work. Nevermind what it does to your digestive tract and teeth.

Look...God created us to live. Gave us Salvation so that we might have an even more full life.

Subsistence scratching out a living...where every storm or strong wind makes us in fear for the next year's groceries...not much to celebrate with that sort of lifestyle.

And what sort of giving can you really do with a subsistence lifestyle?

I am hard wired to not just provide for myself but also those around me with more than enough at all times...with happy memories and celebrating life's good moments. I give where I can...getting in where I fit in. That includes making sausage out of pork trimmings, which is usually considered garbage.

And that getting together and sharing is what actually makes us stronger. One person grows wheat for a community....another potatoes...another grows eggs. Together we can trade and provide a balanced life and lifestyle for a community.

Not all land is suited for farming. Just isn't good soil or drains well and crops rot in the field. Tractors can work 16 hour days....horses can't. And when it comes time for planting or harvesting those really long days can really pay off. Because farming is always about the weather.

Any real farmer can tell you about the forecasted weather and the price of crops on the CBOE. There's a reason for that.

 

[shittim]

If the Lord calls one to do it He also gives what is needed to do so and goes ahead of us to prepare the way.
Otherwise it is a work of hands and not of faith and may be doomed to fail.
Most of the posts here are just that, leaning on one's own understanding without giving Him first place for His plan.
Abraham was called out of Ur to do this, so was His Father, but his father "settled" without walking out God's plan.

 

[Moses_Young]

Shhhh! Don't tell Weird Al that. It would ruin his song.

I don't know the song, but it is probably a good one. His song about Darth Vader was.