REVELATION

[samuel23]

I first heard the teaching that the male child is really the 144,000 from Swaggart, I can see that the idea is catching on. Always open to a better understanding, however how do folks get away from the reality that the man child is caught up to God and His throne(which Jesus was), and that the man child will rule all nations with a rod of iron, seems to make it almost impossible not to be Jesus.

 

[88]

Hello88 and those reading,

If I may jump in. I would like to point out a common mistake made by many. At the opening of the 6th seal, there are those who consider the wrath of God to begin after the verse which says "For the great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it." And so they put the wrath of God as taking place after the opening of the 6th seal and they exclude the previous seals as belonging to God's wrath.

The words "has come" in the verse above, are in the Aorist. So the meaning is that, the great day of their wrath has begun and will continue, which includes what will have previously taken place via seals 1 thru 4. Another thing to take into consideration is that, Jesus is the one who is opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets, with the bowl judgments completing God's wrath. Therefore, He is the One who is initiating the wrath of God and is therefore responsible for the resulting fatalities.

Also, regarding the sky being rolled up like a scroll and the kings, princes, generals, etc., calling to the mountains and the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the face of him who sits on the throne. I believe that the sky rolling up may be that heaven is opening up and the inhabitants of the earth are able to see God sitting on his throne, which is why they are calling to the mountains and rocks to hide/kill them to get them out of God's line of sight and that because they are terrified. If it was a nuclear impact, the kings, the princes, and the generals would not be making reference to God sitting on His throne and that because they would know what a nuclear impact is. It wouldn't be the right response.

I would also like to point out another misconception regarding the below verse:

"The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth,"

The above verse is erroneously equated as being synonymous with the events of the sun, moon and stars in Matt.24:29. The verse above takes place at the 6th bowl judgment, which means following that seal would be the opening of the 7th seal, which leads into the trumpet judgments, followed by the bowl judgments. In contrast, the events of the sun, moon and stars in Matt.24:29, immediately precedes the Lord's return to the earth as a sign of his return to the earth, which would leave no time for the 7th seal to be opened nor the trumpet plagues and the bowl judgments to take place. Also, there is no earthquake mentioned in relation with the sun and moon being darkened in Matt.24:29, as there is at the 6th seal. And in Matt.24:29, the verse states that the sun, moon and stars are darkened, where at the 6th seal the moon is said to turn blood red. So there are some differences.

Conclusion: Though Matt.24:29 and the 6th seal appear to be the same event, they are in fact two different events with some of the same similarities and which take place at different times during that last seven years.

***good point on the kings and rulers seeing the Lord on His Throne---sounds like a good point on what happened...

 

[88]

True, there is a parenthetical pause between the 6th and 7th seal, which is the introduction of two new groups: The 144,000 who are 12,000 from each of the literal twelve tribes of Israel, minus Dan and replaced with Manessah. And the great tribulation saints who are that group which no man can count from every tribe, nation, people and language, which makes them Gentile believers.

John was previously told to write letters to the seven churches and here in chapter 7, the elder is asking John who these are in white robes and where they came from, which John replies that he doesn't know. This would demonstrate that this group is not the church.

I have information other information on the 144,000, but I will wait and share it when you get to Revelation 12.

****good point...

 

[88]

Let's continue on in Chapter 7 of Revelation which is a parenthetical Chapter which means: Sixth Seal (Chapter 7) Seventh Seal--- it is a pause between Chapter 6 & 7----four angels are holding the 4 winds which represent the evil throughout the whole Earth being held back for a purpose---- to seal the 144,000 Jewish Evangelists---- ( more to come...)

*****after the 144,000 we have the Tribulation Saints slain for the Word of God and their testimony (Revelation 6:9-11)---- many will lose there lives and will not take the Mark of the Beast (666)---- this is the time to be prepared before the Tribulation and to have extra oil (Matthew 25) --- and get others into the safety of Christ---- the Lord said to pray to escape these things( Luke 21:36). "Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."----- how are we accounted worthy--- by being real for God--- the disciples were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name (Acts 5:41)...

 

[Ahwatukee]

*****after the 144,000 we have the Tribulation Saints slain for the Word of God and their testimony (Revelation 6:9-11)---- many will lose there lives and will not take the Mark of the Beast (666)---- this is the time to be prepared before the Tribulation and to have extra oil (Matthew 25) --- and get others into the safety of Christ---- the Lord said to pray to escape these things( Luke 21:36). "Watch ye, therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."----- how are we accounted worthy--- by being real for God--- the disciples were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name (Acts 5:41)...

Good evening 88,

Good posts 88! Just a correction on the scripture locaton of the tribulation saints, which is Revelation 7:9-17. Also, John is seeing a vision of the great tribulation saints who will eventually will be killed during the great tribulation, which is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. According to Rev.13:5-7, the great tribulation is that last 42 months (3 1/2 years) when the beast is given power over the saints to make war and to conquer them.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I first heard the teaching that the male child is really the 144,000 from Swaggart, I can see that the idea is catching on. Always open to a better understanding, however how do folks get away from the reality that the man child is caught up to God and His throne(which Jesus was), and that the man child will rule all nations with a rod of iron, seems to make it almost impossible not to be Jesus.

You know, that really gets tiring after You awhile . Let me make myself perfectly clear samuel23. The information that I provide is not from the teachings of men, but comes from my own studies. God knows that I am telling the truth. I did not get my understanding of the male child being the 144,000 from Swaggert but from studying the scripture. I wish that you people would stop insinuating that my posts are from the teachings of other people, because they are not. I can't help it if someone comes to the same conclusion as me.

Jesus is not the male child and I have already given you the reasons as to why he is not. And as I might point out, you have a habit of opposing things and never providing scripture to support, just as you did in your post above. No scripture whatsoever. Revelation 12 is a future event, not a past event. The male child, which is a collective name for the 144,000, who will be the first fruits to God who come out of Israel (gives birth to) who unlike the woman/Israel, they will recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

There are three of whom scripture states will rule with a rod of iron:

Those who overcome within the church:
"To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father." - Rev.2:26-27


The Male Child/144,000:
"She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” - Rev.12:5

The Lord Jesus:
"He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” - Rev.19:13-15

As I demonstrated earlier, Jesus does not fit the criteria for the Male Child, but you couldn't comprehend it.

Male Child = Is caught up similar to how the living in the church will be changed and caught up.

Jesus = Crucified, resurrected and ascended to the right hand of the Father.

The male child is a collect name representing the 144,000. Jimmy Swaggart probably got that information from me.

 

[Timeline]

1 Corinthians 4:21What do you desire? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love and a spirit of gentleness?

 

[popeye]

Good evening 88,

Good posts 88! Just a correction on the scripture locaton of the tribulation saints, which is Revelation 7:9-17. Also, John is seeing a vision of the great tribulation saints who will eventually will be killed during the great tribulation, which is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. According to Rev.13:5-7, the great tribulation is that last 42 months (3 1/2 years) when the beast is given power over the saints to make war and to conquer them.

The GT is kicked off by worldwide death. One fourth of earths population is destroyed. Peace is taken from the entire earth. Death and hell are released upon earths population.

That is GREAT TRIBULATION.

The ac is the first to arrive. He has a crown. He rules the earth. His currency is the mark. All refusing die. The belivers are all gone before the first year. He is obsessed with their murder. He kills them all.

 

[dcontroversal]

I first heard the teaching that the male child is really the 144,000 from Swaggart, I can see that the idea is catching on. Always open to a better understanding, however how do folks get away from the reality that the man child is caught up to God and His throne(which Jesus was), and that the man child will rule all nations with a rod of iron, seems to make it almost impossible not to be Jesus.

There is a group in history that fits--->if ALL of the facts are taken into account...........just saying....

 

[88]

Good evening 88,

Good posts 88! Just a correction on the scripture locaton of the tribulation saints, which is Revelation 7:9-17. Also, John is seeing a vision of the great tribulation saints who will eventually will be killed during the great tribulation, which is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. According to Rev.13:5-7, the great tribulation is that last 42 months (3 1/2 years) when the beast is given power over the saints to make war and to conquer them.

,*** sounds good...

 

[garee]

I have noticed that you interpret scripture with scripture, which is the way we should be arriving at our conclusions. That said, and regarding the woman, below is the reason why the woman of Revelation 12 is representing Israel:

From another perspective.

Because we must walk by faith one of the precepts needed to understand parables so that we can interpret scripture with scripture that we can have the spiritual understanding hid from natural man, it reads..

2Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, “but” at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

With that in mind having a spiritual understanding

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.....one bride

When we compare scripture to scripture it informs us that without parables, Christ, the Word of God spoke not to the multitude and that includes Israel . Remembering all Israel is not Israel as His bride the church or the new name His named His people in the book of Acts 11; Christians. Not all Christians are Christians.( the bride of Christ) In the same way a Jew is not a Jew unless he is one inwardly born again of the Spirit of Christ the seed of His word which will never die.

"Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”
When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

Jacob a type of Christ our husband is from where the spiritual seed Christ came, is recognized as the generation of Christ.... and not after Jacob’s sinful flesh, the generation of Adam. In that parable it is used as an example of the new heavenly Jerusalem, the mother of us all . Jacob was used to typify Christ our husband in that parable his mother and brothers as the bride of Christ worshiping her husband, Christ.

She is prepared as the bride of Christ also called the spiritual house made up of many lively stones the church of God...

The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; Mat 1:1

The seed as to the genealogy ended when Christ came temporally in the flesh, the time of reformation had come.

The church His bride is used as a segregate mother used to bring other members into the body His bride by the hearing of faith the gospel of our salvation, as Christ chaste virgin bride. She is first mentioned in Genesis is 3:15 because the serpent beguiled her .

She is also spoken of below.

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ2Co 11:3

His name is jealous in that way.(He alone owns all things will not share his glory with the creature.)

Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Paul as a segregate Mother is shown as being zealous until the seed of Christ through Christ is formed.

But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you. My little children, of whom I” travail in birth” again until “Christ be formed in you,I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Gal 4:19-26

She represents the woman in Revelation 12 the same woman prepared as His bride in Revelation 21 she made mention of in Josef dream . She is clothed in the righteousness of Christ her husband. He crushed the head of the serpent.

There are other references to the new creature (no longer male nor female Jew nor Gentile) as the mother us of all the church Christs our Husband bride,

Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. Isa 54; 1-6

Zion the heavenly Jerusalem as the bride is referred to also in chapter 66.

Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child...Isaiah 66:7

(our second birth, just as Eve came from Adam, in the same way Christ’s wife the church came from Christ’s side.)

Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. sa 66:7-13

Another reference that speaks of Zion the heavenly city prepared as the bride of Christ and also a reference to the new name he named His bride the church (Christian) . a word that denotes residents of the city of Christ His bride. She is clothed with the righteousness of Christ like the Sun.

For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.(Christian) Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah (my delight is in her"), and thy land Beulah (married wife): for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.For as a young man marrieth a virgin,(1444,000 a number no man can count ) so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee. sa 62:1-5

 

[Ahwatukee]

The GT is kicked off by worldwide death. One fourth of earths population is destroyed. Peace is taken from the entire earth. Death and hell are released upon earths population.

That is GREAT TRIBULATION.

The ac is the first to arrive. He has a crown. He rules the earth. His currency is the mark. All refusing die. The belivers are all gone before the first year. He is obsessed with their murder. He kills them all.

Hello popeye,

I agree that the entire seven years will experience the wrath of God, beginning with the 1st seal. But according to Jesus in Matt.24:15-22, the great tribulation begins at the setting up of the abomination, which as you know, takes place the middle of that seven year period. The reason that it is called the great tribulation, is because that is when the beast breaks his covenant with Israel and stands in the temple proclaiming himself to be God. And it is also during this time when he will be given authority to make war and conquer the great tribulation saints.

 

[samuel23]

It gets tiring because I told the truth and said that I first heard the teaching from Swaggart??? Swaggart is the first person I heard teach that idea and I have since heard it from several other people besides you, I am sure that the idea did not originate with you(who knows). At any rate, you missed my point, Jesus came from Israel, was caught up to God and His throne, and will rule the nations with a rod of iron...so how can you reject Jesus here and claim it is the 140,000?

 

[Ahwatukee]

It gets tiring because I told the truth and said that I first heard the teaching from Swaggart??? Swaggart is the first person I heard teach that idea and I have since heard it from several other people besides you, I am sure that the idea did not originate with you(who knows). At any rate, you missed my point, Jesus came from Israel, was caught up to God and His throne, and will rule the nations with a rod of iron...so how can you reject Jesus here and claim it is the 140,000?

Well my point is, I did not get this teaching from anyone else's teaching. I arrived at this conclusion from my own studies and that via the scriptures and information that I provided.

At any rate, you missed my point, Jesus came from Israel, was caught up to God and His throne, and will rule the nations with a rod of iron...so how can you reject Jesus here and claim it is the 140,000?

No Jesus was not "caught up" to God!" Jesus was first crucified, buried, resurrected and ascended. Where the male child is "caught up" without physically dying, escaping from the dragon/Satan who is waiting to devour/kill him.

The word "harpazo" meaning to be "snatched up, caught up, force suddenly exercised" is the same word used to described the living believers being "caught up" at the time of the resurrection. It is the same word that is used when Paul said that he was "caught up" to the 3rd heaven and is the same word used to describe Philip who was "caught away" from the Eunuch. It is force suddenly exercised, a snatching away. Jesus was not snatched away unharmed, but was first crucified, buried and resurrect and later ascended to God's right hand. In opposition, the male child is caught up alive to God and his thrown out of the dragons reach. Jesus is not the male child.

Jesus, the male child/144,000 and those believers in the church who overcome, will all rule with a rod of iron.

 

[abcdef]

No Jesus was not "caught up" to God!"

Acts 1:9........

 

[Rondonmon]

I agree with your interpretation of the woman and the flood. But it occurred following the resurrection of Christ. not at some future tme

Valiant, the flood actually happens after the Woman (Israel) is chased into the Wilderness. There was another "flood: in Matthew where the people were chased as a flood, that was when they destroyed the Temple. The flood is akin to warriors chasing a defeated foe or in the case of Rev. 12, chasing a foe in which God decides to protect her, like he did against Egypt.

The Rev. 12 story is fairly simple when you understand that the dream of Joseph is incorporated on the Vision. The Woman had the Man-child, which is called such because it grew from a baby to a man, then ascended to the right hand of God, that man child was Jesus Christ, imho, it has nothing to do with the 144,000, I never even heard of that tbf. The Dragon, Satan, tried to kill the baby via King Herod.

At the midway point of the tribulation Micheal stands up (Daniel 12:1-2) and Satan and his angels are cast to earth. Satan is angry and goes after Israel, via the Anti-Christ of course. God uses the EARTH to help her, just like there was a fire protecting Israel vs. Egypt and the waters parting etc. etc. The Dragon (Satan) gets angry that he can not get at Israel, so he goes after the REMNANT of her seed (Jesus was the Seed) and a Remnant is a small part that's left. So he comes after the Remnant of the SEED of the Woman, or the Christians who became Christians after the Rapture.

 

[DiscipleDave]

I know it is a large, debated topic. But I wanted to start a thread for people to freely share their thoughts, convictions and questions etc on the last book given to us by the last surviving apostle at the time...John.

Exiled and a prisoner on the island of Patmos, he received this message.

Let's hear it, y'all.

The Book of Revelation and the end time event can be summed up with on Diagram that i drew. Here it is:



If there is anything that is Scripturally inaccurate, i would love to hear about it. But please only Scriptures, not opinions or beliefs, or what have you. Nobodies opinion will make me change one thing in the diagram. Show me Scriptures and i will change the diagram to reflect that Scripture. Thanks and God Bless.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[88]

The Book of Revelation and the end time event can be summed up with on Diagram that i drew. Here it is:

View attachment 167585

If there is anything that is Scripturally inaccurate, i would love to hear about it. But please only Scriptures, not opinions or beliefs, or what have you. Nobodies opinion will make me change one thing in the diagram. Show me Scriptures and i will change the diagram to reflect that Scripture. Thanks and God Bless.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

***can you put the Rapture of the Church before the 70th Week starts...?

 

[Ahwatukee]

***can you put the Rapture of the Church before the 70th Week starts...?

Hello 88,

There are several things chronologically out of place in the chart above, as Iam sure you have noticed.

1). Seals 1 thru 5 should be included within the seven years as belonging to God's wrath

2). Jesus does not return to the earth in the middle of the seven years, for scripture has him returning after the 7th bowl has been poured out, not before.

3). The new Jerusalem does not come down on this present earth, but to the new earth and that after the millennial period and the great white throne judgment, which follows.

4). The 144,000 are not children, for Rev.14 states that they will have not defiled themselves with woman making them adult males, ergo, the male child who Israel gives birth to.

 

[biwicks]

To be able to understand book of revelation you need two things... You should have have a good understanding of Christian history to act as guide of interpretation of prophesy. You also need to be able to connect the book of revelation with that of Daniel. Remember what was revealed to john is what it had been shown to daniel.. Dan 12:9 And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end....also christ quote Daniel when he was revealing to apostles what will happen in End times....and it is the same christ who was revealing to john what will happen in end times. Therefore you need the two books to understand prophesy plus history of this world because history is there to judge us all..