Revolution in Iran

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ZNP said:
Romans 11:26 — "All Israel will be saved."
  • Paul has spent three chapters (Romans 9-11) carefully distinguishing ethnic Israel from Gentile believers, explicitly grieving that his own kinsmen according to the flesh (9:3) are currently enemies of the gospel (11:28). If "all Israel" here means the church, who are the enemies-of-the-gospel branches that get re-grafted in (11:23-24)?
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No, Paul spent chapters 9-11 distinguishing Israel after the flesh from Israel after the spirit, ie, the remnant, and stating that only a remnant of natural Israel was saved. Therefore, to be consistent with everything he wrote in those 3 chapters, all Israel has to be interpreted as all those of faith in Israel throughout history who will be saved in the same manner, ie, by the new covenant removal of their sins.
 
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ZNP said:

Romans 11:26 — "All Israel will be saved."


  • Paul has spent three chapters (Romans 9-11) carefully distinguishing ethnic Israel from Gentile believers, explicitly grieving that his own kinsmen according to the flesh (9:3) are currently enemies of the gospel (11:28). If "all Israel" here means the church, who are the enemies-of-the-gospel branches that get re-grafted in (11:23-24)?
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"Paul has spent three chapters (Romans 9-11) carefully distinguishing ethnic Israel from Gentile believers"

Correct. An unassailable fact that can only be denied, never refuted.
 
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ZNP said:
Zechariah 12:2-3 — Jerusalem made a "cup of staggering" to surrounding peoples; all nations gather against it.

So you are saying that this did refer to the church which escaped the judgement.
  • If Jerusalem means "the church," which surrounding peoples were besieging the church in Zechariah's day — and why would a spiritual community need a literal Mount of Olives splitting in two just chapters later to provide an escape route?
Not only so but that didn't happen and the "church" did not escape through the Mount of Olives.
  • The text specifies Judah separately from Jerusalem — if both are spiritualized into "the church," why does the prophecy treat them as two distinct entities needing reconciliation?
What were the two distinct entities of the church in 70 AD?

Also in 70 AD it wasn't "all nations" it was the Roman Empire.
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Their routine is a ridiculous slapstick keystone cops parody insulting to any lucid person bestowed with the least intelligence.

Just observe the content of their posts. Infantile vapid groundless opinions, with a heavy dose of Israel bashing.
 
cv5 said:
Their routine is a ridiculous slapstick keystone cops parody insulting to any lucid person bestowed with the least intelligence.

Just observe the content of their posts. Infantile vapid groundless opinions, with a heavy dose of Israel bashing.
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I won't have anything to do with two of them after they mocked the Lord Jesus' warning about being held accountable for insulting brothers and sisters. As for the two I have been responding to at least they will, after much prodding, address the Bible verses and try to answer questions.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
No, Paul spent chapters 9-11 distinguishing Israel after the flesh from Israel after the spirit, ie, the remnant, and stating that only a remnant of natural Israel was saved. Therefore, to be consistent with everything he wrote in those 3 chapters, all Israel has to be interpreted as all those of faith in Israel throughout history who will be saved in the same manner, ie, by the new covenant removal of their sins.
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Biblically illiterate nonsense. Did you tear out 1/3 of your Bible? Or just skip that part to support your bogus doctrine?

Romans 9–11 is centrally about Israel. The real question is how Paul understands their future.


Let’s walk through what Paul the Apostle actually says—carefully and in context.



1. Paul is explicitly talking about ethnic Israel​


Right at the start:


  • Romans 9:3–5 — Paul speaks of “my kinsmen according to the flesh”
  • He lists:
    • the covenants
    • the law
    • the promises

This is clearly ethnic/national Israel, not a vague spiritual group.



2. But he immediately qualifies: not all Israel = Israel​


Romans 9:6:


“They are not all Israel, which are of Israel.”
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Paul introduces a distinction:


  • Physical descent alone ≠ participation in the promise
  • He uses examples:
    • Isaac vs Ishmael
    • Jacob vs Esau

So from the start:
👉 There is a remnant principle inside ethnic Israel.



3. Present condition: partial hardening, not total rejection​


Romans 11 is key:


  • 11:1 — “Has God cast away His people? God forbid.”
  • 11:5 — “a remnant according to grace”
  • 11:7 — “the rest were hardened”

So Paul’s view:


  • Israel is not rejected
  • But is currently partially hardened


4. The turning point: Israel’s future restoration​


This is the strongest section for your question.


Romans 11:25–26​


“Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved.”
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This is where interpretations diverge, but the plain reading includes:


Key elements:​


  • “Blindness in part” → temporary and partial
  • “Until” → a future shift
  • “All Israel” → some kind of collective salvation


5. Paul ties this to Old Testament covenant promises​


Paul immediately quotes from the prophets:


  • Isaiah (Isaiah 59, 27)
  • Covenant language:

    “This is my covenant unto them… when I take away their sins.”
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This connects directly to the prophetic tradition you mentioned:


  • Moses (Deut 30 – national restoration)
  • Ezekiel (Ezekiel 36–37 – new heart, regathering)
  • Zechariah (national repentance)
  • Joel (Spirit poured out)
  • Amos (restored kingdom)
  • Isaiah (remnant + future glory)

Paul is clearly not inventing a new idea—he is grounding his argument in those prophecies.



6. “Irrevocable calling” — crucial statement​


Romans 11:28–29:


“As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”
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This means:


  • God’s promises to the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob) still stand
  • Israel’s current unbelief does not cancel them


7. So does Paul teach national/ethnic restoration?​


Strong case (literal/national view):​


Paul is saying:


  • Ethnic Israel is currently hardened
  • This is temporary
  • After the Gentile period, Israel as a people will turn and be saved
  • This fulfills OT national restoration prophecies



Alternative view (spiritualized / corporate view):​


Some argue:


  • “All Israel” = the total people of God (Jews + Gentiles)
  • Or = the sum of all believing Jews across time

But this view struggles with:


  • The contrast between Israel and Gentiles in the same passage
  • The “until” + future shift language
  • The covenant promises tied to ethnic Israel


8. Balanced conclusion​


From the text alone:


👉 Paul the Apostle does affirm:


  • Ethnic Israel still matters in God’s plan
  • Their current rejection is partial and temporary
  • A future large-scale turning of Israel to God will occur
  • This is tied to Old Testament covenant promises


Bottom line​


Yes — Romans 9–11 strongly supports the idea that Paul expected a future redemption of Israel as a people, in continuity with the prophetic promises.
 
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cv5 said:
Yes — Romans 9–11 strongly supports the idea that Paul expected a future redemption of Israel as a people, in continuity with the prophetic promises.
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Paul was an ex-Pharisee, so though he believed that at one time, he was surely arguing against such an idea in Romans 9-11, in which he consistently maintained that only a remnant is saved. No such thing as a national salvation.
 
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cv5 said:
Biblically illiterate nonsense. Did you tear out 1/3 of your Bible? Or just skip that part to support your bogus doctrine?

Romans 9–11 is centrally about Israel. The real question is how Paul understands their future.
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Paul delineates 2 futures for Israel in Romans 9-11. Salvation for those with faith in Christ, ie, the remnant, and destruction for those who disbelieve.
 
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