Romans 13 and submitting to a corrupt government
- Thread starter JohnB
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
F
FollowingtheWay
Guest
was Jesus peaceful? Was Jesus passive when in the face of these guys? No he was very bold and spoke out against corruption. There was a reason the Pharisees envied Jesus and wanted Him dead. Jesus was very disruptive to their society. Also Rome didn’t know what to do with Him later as they could find no fault with this man.
““Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it. “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started! “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.”
Matthew 23:13, 15-36 NIV
There was every opportunity for Paul to recommend overthrowing the Roman government. Instead, he said to obey them, because God put them there.
F
FollowingtheWay
Guest
Yes we do disagree,and that’s ok. As long as you realize there is an opposite opinion to yours on Roman’s 13 with a very large base. This isn’t a fringe position but is just as deeply rooted as your opinion. Good thing it’s not an essential issue to salvation amirite?
F
FollowingtheWay
Guest
Do you feel God put the nazi party in power over Germany? Do you feel that perhaps we should have let Germany dominate the globe? Did God allow the Nazis to genocide the Jews? Did God allow Stalin or Mussolini to power? Should have the world allowed these men to continue their conquest and genocide biblically? Dietrich Bonhoeffer disagreed. I’d encourage you to read a book or two of his.
There are many examples in Scripture of God using evil leaders to fulfill His purpose.
F
FollowingtheWay
Guest
Do you feel the allied forces interfered with Gods purpose for Hitlers domination on the world by intervening in WW2?
Or Do you think it’s more likely God may have used the allies to expose the works of darkness in the sons of disobedience and that perhaps God used the allies to bring Gods wrath on the nations who aligned with the axis powers?
“For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.”
Ephesians 5:8-11 NIV
“Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.”
Ephesians 5:6 NIV
F
FollowingtheWay
Guest
yea but there are men , governing authorities and nations behind the wars that no doubt certain ones were influenced by Satan and the demonic to do they things they did. Do you think the Nazi soldiers on trial in the nuremberg trials had justification behind Romans13 if they had chosen to use that defense which they kinda did by “Just following orders” Should have the Nazi Soldiers been deemed innocent?
It's simple, really. What Germany did was sinful. Any German soldier who followed along committed sin. We are called to obey those in government UNLESS they require us to sin. At that point we refuse. Daniel showed us the way.
F
FollowingtheWay
Guest
how so? This is ultimately where we get to in this debate is it not? This is why the Romans 13 passage in my opinion is not regarding tyrannical governments but those governments who are just and ruling to the best of their ability with a fear of God and a respect of God. The nazis, Stalin, Mussolini didn’t respect Gods authority and in my opinion I cannot set these Governing authorities legitimately under Romans 13. Now maybe someday God will show me where I’m in error. But for now I could not agree or stand idly by as my congregation plays church music louder during the service to drown out the screams from prisoner death trains rolling by so the congregation doesn't have to hear the atrocity taking place. I don’t think God would want that either, not without protest at least.
the rulers are Just rulers per the 13:3 underlined
“For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.”
Romans 13:3 NIV
so when we do what is right biblically and are still getting punished by that government for doing the right thing then there is some just cause to be disobedient to tyrants who don’t respect Gods authority. There of course must be balance with rest of scripture while in protest but certainly we can make our displeasure known like how Daniel and the 3 Hebrew boys performed disobedience to the Government appointed over them.
It's simple, really. We're required to obey our government UNLESS required to sin. I've said that from the beginning. You can try to come up with all kinds of justification for waring against a corrupt government, but unless it requires you to sin, you have no biblical basis to do so. Taxation without representation doesn't fit the bill.
F
FollowingtheWay
Guest
It was more than that as I’m sure you are aware. It was a very intelligent and thought out decision and they were compelled to enumerate for us, well beyond taxation
“He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.”
F
FollowingtheWay
Guest
When you start leaning into just what these Colonials were accusing King George3rd of it paints a pretty impossible world to live in, “beyond barbaric “ and an “unfit ruler”I think I read there somewhere. I don’t know how many times they sent Benjamin Franklin and John Adams over to “reconcile to the King “ biblically moving towards reconciliation which I found astounding the things they tried to avoid a conflict.
G
Gojira
Guest
Check out his Treatises on Civil Government. Brilliant. And, find the audiobook of that if you can.
F
FollowingtheWay
Guest
And actually all they did was stand their Ground at Lexington and Concord in 1775. The British came and the colonists simply did not bow down to a tyrant who was if you think about what a tyrant is. He is essentially asking for worship. He raises himself up as a god of his own making and requires his subjects to idolize him. So in a way being obedient to King George 3rd the colonials would have been guilty of idolatry had they have continued. To continue being obedient to the king They would have had to in each their own heart make that human king an idol above God. So yes I believe that God was asking them to pick between the sin of idolatry or war for independence. Which is precisely why the 3Hebrew boys refused to bow to the idol.
G
Gojira
Guest
And, remember that God did not want Israel to have a human king. HE wanted to be their king, their CO. The founders took from this as part of the reasoning behind why the British throne needed to be broken from.
Keep in mind that in the US, the government is of a d by the people. We do not have to submit ho it but rather it to the will of the people. Tyr government of Caesar was Caesar's thus the coins issued by it had his image on it. Render unto Caesar that whi h is Caesars. Not so in the US nor like places.
We elect the government, a lot of them anyway; some are appointed. But they make laws that we're obligated to keep. If we don't like their laws we can try to elect someone else, but until that happens we're still obligated to keep the laws that are on the books.