K
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
so you would go to collage and be mentored by God
then graduate and forget everything youre schoolmaster said
and try going it youre way by not doing what he said sounds not right,
no thanks i will retain my knowledge thats been given me by the best schoolmaster around.
My God and father i choice to follow his way.
then graduate and forget everything youre schoolmaster said
and try going it youre way by not doing what he said sounds not right,
no thanks i will retain my knowledge thats been given me by the best schoolmaster around.
My God and father i choice to follow his way.
it says the heaven and earth pass away before the law is fulfilled. That has not happened Yet it is still future.
The law taught of sacrifice Jesus fulfilled that. The law also spoke of the high priest Jesus is doing that now. It speaks of judgement which has not yet taken place. etc etc.
So clearly the law is not yet fulfilled, while aspects of it have been fulfilled there is more to be fulfilled.
2
2Thewaters
Guest
fulfill means to KEEP it and complete it
not to do away
common heresy mistake...
Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
David did not DO AWAY with Gods will he stuck to it exactly
to fulfill means to stic to it exactly
Now listen carfully
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
if fulfill meant to DESTROY AND GET RID OF IT then this is what it would say
I came not to destroy the law but to destroy it!
silly! makes not sense at all!
common apostate teaching
that fulfill means to destroy
who invented that? the enemy
fulfill means to FULLY PREACH IT
Now I have a question for you
where did you get the idea that fulfill was to DO AWAY with it?
Who told you that?
and who told him that?
and him?
why dont you go to your Bible
CLICK ON THE WORD and see what it means?
instead of believing a person who makes his money only if there is no law?
right?
wake up!
get your Bible out
read it!
Believe it!
follow it!
do all of it!
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
not to do away
common heresy mistake...
Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
David did not DO AWAY with Gods will he stuck to it exactly
to fulfill means to stic to it exactly
Now listen carfully
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
if fulfill meant to DESTROY AND GET RID OF IT then this is what it would say
I came not to destroy the law but to destroy it!
silly! makes not sense at all!
common apostate teaching
that fulfill means to destroy
who invented that? the enemy
fulfill means to FULLY PREACH IT
Now I have a question for you
where did you get the idea that fulfill was to DO AWAY with it?
Who told you that?
and who told him that?
and him?
why dont you go to your Bible
CLICK ON THE WORD and see what it means?
instead of believing a person who makes his money only if there is no law?
right?
wake up!
get your Bible out
read it!
Believe it!
follow it!
do all of it!
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
L
Leon
Guest
ChosenbyHim: You made the statement "The Sabbath is not for Christians.
The Sabbath was given to Israel as a Sign (Ezek. 20:11-20)."
Did you read Ezek. 20 11-20? You are referring to verse 12. What about the rest of the verses you mentioned ie: It is clear in what it says in verse 13 "13 But even in the desert they defied me. They broke my laws and rejected my commands, which bring life to anyone who obeys them. They completely profaned the Sabbath"
The ten commandments were given to this same nation "the Israelites". So if by your reasoning that the sabbath is only for the Israelites then why do we need to obey the 10 commandments? Or since some of us choose to ignore the Sabbath day, why not ignore, thou shall not kill, or steal, or covet thy neighbors wife etc?
We need to realize how serious this commandment was, it covers 4 verses in Exodus 20 . Repeated 4 times!
(8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.)
Lets face it, it suits us to ignore this specific command, because we are inconvenienced by it. We choose to do what we want on that day, work, play, hobbies, get togethers etc...
How many people take only the first part of that command and ignore the rest.
"Isaiah 58:13 ESV
“If you turn back your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight and the holy day of the Lord honorable; if you honor it, not going your own ways, or seeking your own pleasure, or talking idly;"
The Sabbath was given to Israel as a Sign (Ezek. 20:11-20)."
Did you read Ezek. 20 11-20? You are referring to verse 12. What about the rest of the verses you mentioned ie: It is clear in what it says in verse 13 "13 But even in the desert they defied me. They broke my laws and rejected my commands, which bring life to anyone who obeys them. They completely profaned the Sabbath"
The ten commandments were given to this same nation "the Israelites". So if by your reasoning that the sabbath is only for the Israelites then why do we need to obey the 10 commandments? Or since some of us choose to ignore the Sabbath day, why not ignore, thou shall not kill, or steal, or covet thy neighbors wife etc?
We need to realize how serious this commandment was, it covers 4 verses in Exodus 20 . Repeated 4 times!
(8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.)
Lets face it, it suits us to ignore this specific command, because we are inconvenienced by it. We choose to do what we want on that day, work, play, hobbies, get togethers etc...
How many people take only the first part of that command and ignore the rest.
"Isaiah 58:13 ESV
“If you turn back your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight and the holy day of the Lord honorable; if you honor it, not going your own ways, or seeking your own pleasure, or talking idly;"
L
Laodicea
Guest
Exactly, if your Bible says Sabbath of the Jews, return it and get your money back, it contains misprints...
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Good stuff Leon!
Just to get ahead of the game and debate a little bit.......
The defense that many anti-Sabbath folks will take regarding your logic is that the rest of the 10 commandments were quoted in the NT, so we are told to follow those. But the Sabbath commandment wasn't repeated so we're not supposed to do that one.
This is erroneous because it implies that the OT and the NT are 2 completely different books with 2 completely different messages, where nothing in the OT is applicable to us unless it is mentioned in the NT. The problem with this reasoning though, is that there is a wealth of instructions, stories and covenants in the OT that aren't repeated in the NT. Again, by this reasoning, we would miss out on the covenant with Noah - so no promise not to destroy the earth again. Beastiality? Not covered in the NT. etc. etc.
The God who wrote the OT is the same God who wrote the NT, and is in fact Jesus Himself. The message of the OT is the same as the message of the NT. But we approach the NT as teaching us something different, it implies that the OT was wrong and the only thing that counts is what we read in the NT.
Again, good thoughts.
When one looks at a correct translation of Heb 4:9 we find that the Sabbath is restated in the N.T.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
The word for rest is Sabbatismos and means keeping of the Sabbath...
Heb 4:9 Therefore remains a keeping of a sabbath for the people of the God. - Diaglott
S
sparkman
Guest
I used to observe the Saturday Sabbath as it was taught by the church that I attended when I was first saved.
As Romans 14 indicates, we have the freedom to observe any day we want to the Lord.
However, if one is doing it to earn or merit salvation, this is an error. Almost assuredly, it leads to self righteousness and exclusivism; i.e., the idea that only a select few are "enlightened" by this truth and are truly saved.
It also begs the question of why Sabbath keeping was not a major issue amongst the Gentile churches of the NT..why is there a conspicuous absence of teaching on it? Almost assuredly, there were slaves in the NT church who had nonbelieving masters. Do you really think that their masters let them observe the Saturday Sabbath in the style that many Sabbath keepers believe they should keep it?
Sabbath keeping, as noted by others here, was part of the Old Covenant that God had with Israel, not the New Covenant that Christ has with Christians, although the principle of setting aside time to focus on God and fellowship is still part of the law of Christ.
Warm regards,
Robert
As Romans 14 indicates, we have the freedom to observe any day we want to the Lord.
However, if one is doing it to earn or merit salvation, this is an error. Almost assuredly, it leads to self righteousness and exclusivism; i.e., the idea that only a select few are "enlightened" by this truth and are truly saved.
It also begs the question of why Sabbath keeping was not a major issue amongst the Gentile churches of the NT..why is there a conspicuous absence of teaching on it? Almost assuredly, there were slaves in the NT church who had nonbelieving masters. Do you really think that their masters let them observe the Saturday Sabbath in the style that many Sabbath keepers believe they should keep it?
Sabbath keeping, as noted by others here, was part of the Old Covenant that God had with Israel, not the New Covenant that Christ has with Christians, although the principle of setting aside time to focus on God and fellowship is still part of the law of Christ.
Warm regards,
Robert
S
sparkman
Guest
Another interesting comment in this regard...I can tell you that amongst those who claim to keep the Sabbath according to God's commands to ancient Israel, there is a remarkable lack of consensus on what it means to really keep the Sabbath. Does it mean that you can go to restaurants, or not? If you go to restaurants after services, are you contributing to the sins of others, by making them work? Is it ok to work on occasion on Sabbath if it is necessary? Is it ok to play school sports on the Sabbath? Is it ok to travel long distances in your automobile, even if it's to attend services? The judgments of a church or individual in regards to these questions becomes nerve wracking to figure out.
God commanded ancient Israel to stone anyone who broke the Sabbath. In fact, one fellow was picking up sticks, apparently to keep warm on the Sabbath day, or perhaps to cook, and he was stoned to death.
I have also heard that some ultra orthodox Jews won't even open their refrigerators because the light bulb will turn on and that constitutes lighting a fire for them...I don't know if that's true..but you get the idea..the legalism behind the whole thing can become ludicrous. In fact, you probably do more mental work figuring out what is and what isn't lawful on the Sabbath, to the point where you really can't focus on God sometimes. That's the way legalism is.
Warm regards,
Robert
God commanded ancient Israel to stone anyone who broke the Sabbath. In fact, one fellow was picking up sticks, apparently to keep warm on the Sabbath day, or perhaps to cook, and he was stoned to death.
I have also heard that some ultra orthodox Jews won't even open their refrigerators because the light bulb will turn on and that constitutes lighting a fire for them...I don't know if that's true..but you get the idea..the legalism behind the whole thing can become ludicrous. In fact, you probably do more mental work figuring out what is and what isn't lawful on the Sabbath, to the point where you really can't focus on God sometimes. That's the way legalism is.
Warm regards,
Robert
Many people seem to confuse meeting for worship with the Sabbath. Yes people have always met to worship any day of the week, even on the Sabbath, but the Sabbath of the Lord, the Seventh Day is a gift from the Father, that deay is to be kept separate from working days for rest from our mundane labors with the Father, for after creating all that we see, He rested and gave us the privilege of resting with Him one day a week.
It is in the Word.
It is in the Word.
S
sparkman
Guest
These Scriptures are speaking of the spiritual rest which comes by faith in Jesus Christ. It is a rest from the works of the Law and seeking justification by them. Justification is by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone, not through the Law like the Judaizers of Hebrews were teaching. Read the verse in its context.
Hebrews 4: [SUP]8 [/SUP]For if Joshua had given them rest, God[SUP][a][/SUP] would not have spoken of another day later on. [SUP]9 [/SUP]So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, [SUP]10 [/SUP]for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
Hebrews 4: [SUP]8 [/SUP]For if Joshua had given them rest, God[SUP][a][/SUP] would not have spoken of another day later on. [SUP]9 [/SUP]So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, [SUP]10 [/SUP]for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
1
1still_waters
Guest
Before man was able to complete one day of work, he had to go through a full Sabbath, which is God's Holy day of rest and gift to man.
Before man is able to do any true works for God, he must pass through Jesus, our Sabbath rest, who is God's gift to us.
Types and shadows for $2000 Alex?
Before man is able to do any true works for God, he must pass through Jesus, our Sabbath rest, who is God's gift to us.
Types and shadows for $2000 Alex?
C
chubbena
Guest
and every time I come here where we are free to discuss our understanding of the Father. Just like the old days at the temple corridor and synagogues.I just got back from church.
C
chubbena
Guest
So physical rest is vital. It's just a matter of when we choose to physically rest.
Really, it's not too different from vacation, which I believe we all need from time to time. We may choose to spend that time with the one we love or to spend that time with someone we love.
S
sparkman
Guest
It's been my experience from being part of a Saturday Sabbath church (Worldwide Church of God) that Sabbatarians often think they are better than non Sabbatarians, and often accuse the non Sabbatarians of not being saved at all..because the Sabbatarians think they are more faithful to God than non Sabbatarians.
I would ask them to look at the practice of the New Testament Church....what was the practice of the New Testament church? There's no better place to look than Acts.
Here, we can see that the New Testament church worshipped EVERY DAY...
Acts 2:[SUP]42 [/SUP]And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. [SUP]43 [/SUP]And awe[SUP][e][/SUP] came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. [SUP]44 [/SUP]And all who believed were together and had all things in common. [SUP]45 [/SUP]And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. [SUP]46 [/SUP]And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, [SUP]47 [/SUP]praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Here we can see that the New Testament church worshipped EVERY DAY.
Certainly the apostles went to synagogue on Saturday after the resurrection, but this was because it was a good place to engage unsaved Jewish believers. They themselves were Jews as well, and their history was wrapped around the Jewish tradition. And, there was nothing wrong with them attending synagogue on Saturday, as Romans 14 gives Christians the liberality to observe whatever day they want.
As the church became more Gentile, since the Jews largely refused the gospel, the day migrated to Sunday in honor of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The focus of Christianity is, after all, Christ and him crucified, and raised from the dead.
As an additional note, many who insist that the Sabbath still applies are implicitly stating that they are more righteous than other Christians who don't. Some even consider others who don't keep the Sabbath of being unsaved, as they are breaking God's commandments. They won't generally come right out and tell their other Christian friends that, but it is very much a part of the whole mindset. I know as I was a Sabbatarian and I believed that anyone who didn't keep the Saturday Sabbath was a pagan. My feelings on that were not unique.
Being a Sabbatarian for me meant that God's grace was not the focus of my beliefs. I was caught up in works oriented salvation. I did not believe that I was saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. I did not have assurance of my salvation, as I thought my behavior would cause me to lose my salvation. The focus was not on Jesus Christ; it was on me and my works. And, those works were not on greater things such as "love one another"...which is the law of Christ..but they were on my pathetic works such as keeping the Sabbath, the holy days of Leviticus 23, tithing, and the clean/unclean meats laws. If such legalistic thinking is your major focus, then you don't really have a good relationship with the person of Jesus Christ..you have a relationship with the law. Scripture plainly teaches that no one will be justified by keeping the law...it is all by grace through faith.
I encourage any such individual to read the book by RC Sproul called Faith Alone. It explains exactly what it means to be saved by grace through faith alone, and why the Reformation was so important.
So that my remarks are not misinterpreted, I believe that God desires us to be obedient. RC Sproul believes this too. Most Christians believe this. The issue is, be obedient to what? The Old Covenant or the New Covenant? The New Covenant obviously. Does the New Covenant include the Sabbath?
And..if you believe the Sabbath is required of Christians, are you being consistent with the verses you use to justify your position? Let's try this one..
Colossians 2: [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
Two questions:
1) If you use this verse to justify your position that Christians should keep the Saturday Sabbath, then you must also observe festivals and new moons. Do you do so, or are you only picking and choosing what you want? With my church, they never observed new moons..I doubt most knew anything about them.
2) Do you read this verse in context? Do you read the verses before and after the verse? What it says is that these things were shadows of the reality, which is Jesus Christ. Why worship the shadow when you have the reality? We have Jesus Christ now, and can worship Him.
The Sabbath pointed to Jesus Christ as your spiritual rest from works. The mindset of those who kept the law was that they were seeking their justification, their right standing, before God through observing the Law. When Jesus Christ came to die on a cross, he fully paid the cost for our sin. When we realize the depths of our sin, and asked God to forgive them and to apply the shed blood of Jesus Christ to them, we were given right standing before God. We were clothed in the robes of Christ's righteousness. When God looks at us, he sees us clean and pure. We trade our sin for Christ's righteousness in this great exchange that occurs at conversion.
Jesus is our spiritual rest, and in that way He is our Sabbath..worship the Reality and not the shadow.
Warm regards,
Robert
I would ask them to look at the practice of the New Testament Church....what was the practice of the New Testament church? There's no better place to look than Acts.
Here, we can see that the New Testament church worshipped EVERY DAY...
Acts 2:[SUP]42 [/SUP]And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. [SUP]43 [/SUP]And awe[SUP][e][/SUP] came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. [SUP]44 [/SUP]And all who believed were together and had all things in common. [SUP]45 [/SUP]And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. [SUP]46 [/SUP]And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, [SUP]47 [/SUP]praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Here we can see that the New Testament church worshipped EVERY DAY.
Certainly the apostles went to synagogue on Saturday after the resurrection, but this was because it was a good place to engage unsaved Jewish believers. They themselves were Jews as well, and their history was wrapped around the Jewish tradition. And, there was nothing wrong with them attending synagogue on Saturday, as Romans 14 gives Christians the liberality to observe whatever day they want.
As the church became more Gentile, since the Jews largely refused the gospel, the day migrated to Sunday in honor of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The focus of Christianity is, after all, Christ and him crucified, and raised from the dead.
As an additional note, many who insist that the Sabbath still applies are implicitly stating that they are more righteous than other Christians who don't. Some even consider others who don't keep the Sabbath of being unsaved, as they are breaking God's commandments. They won't generally come right out and tell their other Christian friends that, but it is very much a part of the whole mindset. I know as I was a Sabbatarian and I believed that anyone who didn't keep the Saturday Sabbath was a pagan. My feelings on that were not unique.
Being a Sabbatarian for me meant that God's grace was not the focus of my beliefs. I was caught up in works oriented salvation. I did not believe that I was saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. I did not have assurance of my salvation, as I thought my behavior would cause me to lose my salvation. The focus was not on Jesus Christ; it was on me and my works. And, those works were not on greater things such as "love one another"...which is the law of Christ..but they were on my pathetic works such as keeping the Sabbath, the holy days of Leviticus 23, tithing, and the clean/unclean meats laws. If such legalistic thinking is your major focus, then you don't really have a good relationship with the person of Jesus Christ..you have a relationship with the law. Scripture plainly teaches that no one will be justified by keeping the law...it is all by grace through faith.
I encourage any such individual to read the book by RC Sproul called Faith Alone. It explains exactly what it means to be saved by grace through faith alone, and why the Reformation was so important.
So that my remarks are not misinterpreted, I believe that God desires us to be obedient. RC Sproul believes this too. Most Christians believe this. The issue is, be obedient to what? The Old Covenant or the New Covenant? The New Covenant obviously. Does the New Covenant include the Sabbath?
And..if you believe the Sabbath is required of Christians, are you being consistent with the verses you use to justify your position? Let's try this one..
Colossians 2: [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
Two questions:
1) If you use this verse to justify your position that Christians should keep the Saturday Sabbath, then you must also observe festivals and new moons. Do you do so, or are you only picking and choosing what you want? With my church, they never observed new moons..I doubt most knew anything about them.
2) Do you read this verse in context? Do you read the verses before and after the verse? What it says is that these things were shadows of the reality, which is Jesus Christ. Why worship the shadow when you have the reality? We have Jesus Christ now, and can worship Him.
The Sabbath pointed to Jesus Christ as your spiritual rest from works. The mindset of those who kept the law was that they were seeking their justification, their right standing, before God through observing the Law. When Jesus Christ came to die on a cross, he fully paid the cost for our sin. When we realize the depths of our sin, and asked God to forgive them and to apply the shed blood of Jesus Christ to them, we were given right standing before God. We were clothed in the robes of Christ's righteousness. When God looks at us, he sees us clean and pure. We trade our sin for Christ's righteousness in this great exchange that occurs at conversion.
Jesus is our spiritual rest, and in that way He is our Sabbath..worship the Reality and not the shadow.
Warm regards,
Robert
The questions and concerns you mention are not Biblical issues, but more interpretive issues. When you look at the instructions for the Sabbath, it's not too hard to figure out. All of the questions and debates arise from man's attempts to control the Sabbath.
But really, this is no different than what every denomination does. We take a particular teaching and instruction and we make our own interpretation and application of it so important that it creates more division and tension.
There is just as much legalism in the anti-Sabbath/Law movements as there is in the pro-Sabbath/Law movement. A loo at the numerous threads posted by both sides is evidence of that truth.
C
chubbena
Guest
The OP was about which day to worship which apparently is not a problem because worship is to be in truth and in spirit, not where or when.
Physical rest is, on the other hand, vital. Some choose to rest on the Sabbath which is made for man but some don't. Some choose to worship on that day too but some don't. It's not for you or me to judge because all would say we have freedom in Christ - as long as that freedom is not used to indulge in our old sinful nature.
One big issue is how we interpret scriptures. Either side would quote verses to support their thought neglecting what the other side quotes. It's always like chicken and duck talk.
One thing for sure is, the more we talk, the firmer our stance. So thankyou for that.
Physical rest is, on the other hand, vital. Some choose to rest on the Sabbath which is made for man but some don't. Some choose to worship on that day too but some don't. It's not for you or me to judge because all would say we have freedom in Christ - as long as that freedom is not used to indulge in our old sinful nature.
One big issue is how we interpret scriptures. Either side would quote verses to support their thought neglecting what the other side quotes. It's always like chicken and duck talk.
One thing for sure is, the more we talk, the firmer our stance. So thankyou for that.