Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[JGIG]

Christ's NT gospel does not teach "death bed salvation".

And we come back 'round to the thief on the Cross . . .

-JGIG

 

[eternally-gratefull]

YOU do not seem to understand that the Christian has an OBLIGATION in doing good works to help his fellow Christian or else be eternally lost for not doing so, Matt 25:41-46

You fail to understand a true believer WILL do these things. As apposed to a fraud, Will will not.



WHy do you think you can earn a gift? what makes you more righteous than the pharisees? Your just like them

 

[JGIG]

From what you write, it appears that you have no knowledge of the New Creation and the implications of that.

Also, do you have children?

Did they come out of the womb fully capable of adult duties? Mature in character? Full of wisdom and cognition?

-JGIG

YOU do not seem to understand that the Christian has an OBLIGATION in doing good works to help his fellow Christian or else be eternally lost for not doing so, Matt 25:41-46

You're not going to answer the question, are you.

Just keep pulling out-of-context verses to force meanings into to support your skewed view.

I'll throw out another question in hopes that you may perhaps consider answering it, or at least planting it in your grey matter:

What is the difference between works and Fruit?

-JGIG

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The very first verse of Rom 5 says "justified by faith" Note that it does NOT say 'justified by faith alone". Adding or assuming the word "alone" into this verse perverts it and one no longer has what God said. Faith is a work else it is dead.

This is a stretch,

It says we were justified by faith. the fact that NOTHING else was added means it is faith alone.

If anything else was essential. Paul would have added it to the sentence.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's a dead faith that cannot save.

Then it was never saved, Not a salvation which was lost.

 

[JGIG]

So belief would be an a obedient work.

Belief is a response to the Gospel of Grace.

-JGIG

 

[eternally-gratefull]

NT belief is an action, a work as Jesus calls it in Jn 6:27-29.

And who's work is it?

[SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

 

[JGIG]

The very first verse of Rom 5 says "justified by faith" Note that it does NOT say 'justified by faith alone". Adding or assuming the word "alone" into this verse perverts it and one no longer has what God said. Faith is a work else it is dead.

Rewriting Scripture, now, are you?

Really?

Ya gotta do what ya gotta do, I suppose.

-JGIG

 

[BenFTW]

You are simply trying to find ways to make good works for the Christian not necessary....which is in total opposition to Eph 2:10, Matt 25 and 1 Jn 3:17 among other verses.

Gal 6:10 "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith."


A Christian is either doing righeousness (includes pre-ordained good works, Eph 2:10) or he is doing unrighteousness. Christians that do unrighteousness (not do good works) will be lost, no exceptions made about the unrighteous being lost...."Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?"


Lk 10, the parable of the good Samaritan was about helping others, even if those others you help do not like you and at the end of this parable Jesus said "Go, and do thou likewise."..a COMMAND not an option

That's all good, nice, and well, but you avoided answering the questions. May I suggest why? It shows how illogical your doctrine is. Here, I will repost it, for others to see how irrational and illogical the doctrine you're proposing is. Feel free to try and answer the questions, they are serious. Stop avoiding them because they don't line up with your doctrine. Tell me "yes" or "no" to each of the questions, and let me know why they are or are not saved. I want to get a full view of your works salvation.

Has anyone even considered how arbitrary SeaBass' works based salvation is? Let me explain something to you, and also ask SeaBass something.

If someone accepts Christ and one opportunity(a good work) presents itself and the person does it, is he saved(and dies after)? SeaBass, you will say, "Yes." Right?

Now, if the same person has the opportunity presented to do a good work and doesn't do it, and dies, is he saved? SeaBass, you will answer, "No." That is, if you hold true to your works salvation. If you say, "Yes." then works are arbitrary. If you say, "No" that means that God requires perfection after one is saved (Why did Christ come again?).

Now, lets push this example even further. Say "Joe" accepts the Lord and has one year to live. Through out the year he is presented two opportunities to do good works. He does the first but doesn't do the second work. Is he saved, after the year is up and he dies? If you answer "Yes" then everyone is saved, because we will all unintentionally do a good work, out of who we are and the fruits of the Spirit. If you say, "No, he is not saved" then what you are saying is, again, that God requires perfection. To which I reply, "Why was Jesus sent again?" Oh, and if you say, "Yes" you've also shown that works are arbitrary because he did one and didn't do one.

PS: Is there a ratio of good works to missed good works to be saved? 50/50? 100% good works, with no missed opportunities? Who can do that?

 

[JGIG]

It's a dead faith that cannot save.

SeaBass, faith is not what saves us; the Work of Christ is. Faith + works is not what saves us; the Work of Christ does.

It's not about us.

It's about HIM.

-JGIG

 

[BenFTW]

And we come back 'round to the thief on the Cross . . .

-JGIG

Did you see my list?

Yes. Those incapable of doing good works due to specific situations, such as but not limited to, immediate death upon acceptance of Christ, death within a short period of time upon acceptance of Christ, a person in a coma, someone lost at sea, someone lost on a deserted island, someone bedridden(with no visitors), and someone confessing Christ while being put to death(such as a man on a cross, being stoned to death, free falling from an airplane, etc). As you can see, this list isn't exhaustive, but it shows a variety of scenarios in which a man is saved without works. Therefore refuting any such argument of works based salvation, or maintenance based salvation(through works).

/end of topic

PS: If there is some spiritual rule/law that excludes these people from having to work(to be saved), then it is in the best interest of ALL humanity to seek to be in such scenarios. These scenarios include... the list above.

 

[hadaza]

That's all good, nice, and well, but you avoided answering the questions. May I suggest why? It shows how illogical your doctrine is. Here, I will repost it, for others to see how irrational and illogical the doctrine you're proposing is. Feel free to try and answer the questions, they are serious. Stop avoiding them because they don't line up with your doctrine. Tell me "yes" or "no" to each of the questions, and let me know why they are or are not saved. I want to get a full view of your works salvation.



Has anyone even considered how arbitrary SeaBass' works based salvation is? Let me explain something to you, and also ask SeaBass something.

If someone accepts Christ and one opportunity(a good work) presents itself and the person does it, is he saved(and dies after)? SeaBass, you will say, "Yes." Right?

Now, if the same person has the opportunity presented to do a good work and doesn't do it, and dies, is he saved? SeaBass, you will answer, "No." That is, if you hold true to your works salvation. If you say, "Yes." then works are arbitrary. If you say, "No" that means that God requires perfection after one is saved (Why did Christ come again?).

Now, lets push this example even further. Say "Joe" accepts the Lord and has one year to live. Through out the year he is presented two opportunities to do good works. He does the first but doesn't do the second work. Is he saved, after the year is up and he dies? If you answer "Yes" then everyone is saved, because we will all unintentionally do a good work, out of who we are and the fruits of the Spirit. If you say, "No, he is not saved" then what you are saying is, again, that God requires perfection. To which I reply, "Why was Jesus sent again?" Oh, and if you say, "Yes" you've also shown that works are arbitrary because he did one and didn't do one.

PS: Is there a ratio of good works to missed good works to be saved? 50/50? 100% good works, with no missed opportunities? Who can do that?

that's an interesting example, the answer is "yes" and it doesn't mean everyone can be saved, it's true anyone can do a good work in their lifes but you're forgetting the fact that means nothing without accepting Jesus in our hearts and repent so we can be with God because of his son's blood, works are the result not requirements, and there will be times when people get saved in a hospital bed for example and they won't be able of showing good works to a crowd or whatever but they are saved because they believed in God's son.

 

[JGIG]

The truth is, God does invite everyone to be saved, He calls them (invites them) by His gospel, 2 Thess 2:14 and it takes works/obedience (obey the gospel) to answer that call. One is not answering that call by sitting and doing nothing.

What is obedience to the Good News?

Belief in the One God sent (Jn. 6).

-JGIG

 

[dcontroversal]

Not sure if anyone brought this up, but the man on the cross next to Jesus was saved, and he spent the rest of his life as a "believer" [the title "christian" wasn't invented yet] but due to circumstances out of his control he didn't get to do much in the way of "works". He was obviously saved, because Jesus said he was. See Luke 23:39-43. So your statements of "In order for one to become a Christian, he MUST faithfully obey God in doing works of believing" and "It therefore is IMPOSSIBLE for a man to do nothing his entire life and yet still be saved", appear to be moot.

No doubt....what about people who are mentally incapable of making a conscience decision or babies and children....
David's son of adultery was accepted as David went to him at his death....and with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE!

 

[JGIG]

Jesus said to LABOUR/WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life. That settles the issue.

It's hard work to set aside one's own works and receive the free gifts of Forgiveness, Righteousness, and New Life.

The paradox is that we labor to enter into His Rest (Heb. 4).

-JGIG

 

[BenFTW]

that's an interesting example, the answer is "yes" and it doesn't mean everyone can be saved, it's true anyone can do a good work in their lifes but you're forgetting the fact that means nothing without accepting Jesus in our hearts and repent so we can be with God because of his son's blood, works are the result not requirements, and there will be times when people get saved in a hospital bed for example and they won't be able of showing good works to a crowd or whatever but they are saved because they believed in God's son.

That's exactly my point. Without Jesus, works mean nothing. And with Jesus, works mean nothing, in regards to salvation. What they do mean, or the purpose behind them once having accepted Christ, is a reward when we, Christians, are judged on the mercy seat of Christ (Bema). Our rewards are at risk, not our salvation.

See how easy it is to understand SeaBass?

 

[Hoffco]

To seabass , you are getting very obnoxious to the point of blasphemous to Christ and His all sufficient and effectual work in saving His "elect" "children" which the Father gave Him. You are sooo insulting to God, I don't think God likes what you are doing. When you say that our works have "everything" to do with our salvation: it is a wicked slap to God and to Jesus. You first post is DEAD WRONG!! WE do not have to do any work before God can save us. The chosen vessel of God, Saul, was a wicked blasphemer before God powerfully saved him. Other people have come to know God, gently, learning of God at their mothers side and have been spared a wicked life and were gently brought, by God's same power, to conversion, like Timothy. Good works are at the center of why God saved us; BUT, not how God saved us. You are a blasphemous thief.! SORRY, but, you MOST repent before God deals very severely with you. This is my educated opinion. Love you, Hoffco, Doug ps. This is very much the SAME opinion I have with those who blasphemously propose a work less salvation and deny our holy deeds, done in the power of God, without which no one will be saved.

 

[hadaza]

That's exactly my point. Without Jesus, works meaning nothing. And with Jesus, works mean nothing, in regards to salvation. What they do mean, or the purpose behind them once having accepted Christ, is a reward when we, Christians, are judged on the mercy seat of Christ (Bema). Our rewards are at risk, not our salvation.

See how easy it is to understand SeaBass?

It's the part I disagree with, good works are definitely related to salvation it's the sign for us to know who is saved and who is not (talking about live people haha) like I said in cases like those or the another list about someone lost in the sea... it's not necessary but in people who claim to be God's children, yes they have to show a change and the fruits of the spirit which is what shows to the world what Jesus can do , we are living testimonies , you should think about that and give more importance than what I can perceive your giving now.

 

[JGIG]

'to believe' is active.

Yes, the act of believing is more than mental ascent; it is putting one's faith in something.

The labor in that is trusting His Work more than ours.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

The fact though is CHrist did die for every man Heb 2:9. Will every man be saved? No, Matt 7:13. So what is it that separates, differentiates those that will be saved from those that will be lost? Obedient works (or lack thereof). Many verses as Rom 2:6 show God's judgment is to render according to a man's deeds. So how anyone can say works have nothing to do with salvation when works have EVERYTHING to do with salvation?

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
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-JGIG