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Salvation Not Possible Without Works
- Thread starter SeaBass
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Ash_JFF
Guest
Its not worth it, don't even bother. Want a summary?
SeaBass is for works based salvation. He believes in maintaining our salvation through good works. Might I add, even upon the first post, he considers we do works to "get" salvation, that is through repentance, belief, confession and baptism or something like that. He considers those "works." And then, as we did obedient works before salvation (those "acts") we then therefore do more obedient works after salvation to maintain our salvation.
I, on the other hand, and others here (not wishing to speak on their behalf, but just stating in simplicity) believe we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. We don't advocate against good works, as they are a natural out-flow of who we now are, that is born-again(old nature gone, new nature, made spiritually alive) and the fruit of the Spirit (such as love).
However, such works do not maintain our salvation but rather go towards our rewards upon the judgement seat of Christ, where Christians will be judged based upon their works and be rewarded. Their salvation isn't being determined, their rewards are (in other words, salvation isn't at risk, rewards are).
There you go...
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Alligator
Guest
go ahead, we'll wait.just know that the above "summary" is somewhat slanted.
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Here is a summary rebuttal in 4 verses...
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(Gal 3:2-5)
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(Gal 3:2-5)
i think a little exchange i had with SeaBass 10's of pages ago sums up his position rather neatly:
i say yes.
i believe everything necessary for salvation is encapsulated in God, in the Word of God, and in the heart of man.
the other side of the debate here is that more is required.
no one has said a believer ought not to do the work and will of God.
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I did not read through all of this, so forgive me if I repeat another.
But from what I have read, the issue here is understanding what works are.
Many see works as what one does in serving others in Jesus, and yes we are called to do this.
But in reading Peter, when he spoke to a work of faith, I saw it more as one stepping forward in faith, even though not seeing, in faith, continueing to live the work called to.
One of the works I see being important is trusting all to God Our Father, even when all seems at its worst.
Praising God in Jesus and coninueing in faith, to live all asked to.
In Jesus, God bless
pickles
But from what I have read, the issue here is understanding what works are.
Many see works as what one does in serving others in Jesus, and yes we are called to do this.
But in reading Peter, when he spoke to a work of faith, I saw it more as one stepping forward in faith, even though not seeing, in faith, continueing to live the work called to.
One of the works I see being important is trusting all to God Our Father, even when all seems at its worst.
Praising God in Jesus and coninueing in faith, to live all asked to.
In Jesus, God bless
pickles
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Again, You did not read and understand
Noticed I capitalized the word AND..
Peter said repent. And you will get the gift of the holy spirit. And let everyone be baptized for the remission of sin.
The word "for" here being translated as "on account of"
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Is it not better to be his son than his friend?
He gives the birds all they need to live, How much more is he going to give his children?
Obviously works is by the hearing of faith. Not hard at all. Faith produces works. Thanks for quoting that verse. It's a good one. I will be redundant and quote some James stuff even though by my quoting, to some individuals, I'm distorting scripture because I won't justify it. Why should I justify the Justifier.
oxymoron time.James 2:14-26 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
To me it's self explanatory.
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cfultz3
Guest
Did you see when I said:
If one hearkens unto the Lord upon His path, does he not do as his Master commands? That is, does he not love as commanded and by which, fulfill the Law? Love is the Law and by which, you have your works.
If one is not stubborn, does he not do the will of the Lord and by which, you have your works?
If one comes to know His ways, does He not desire also to please the Lord and do His will and by which, you have your works?
You are correct in implying that the demons believe in the existence of God. But yet, they are not believers, seeing that that belief is not ACTIVE.
You have given a nice summation to what I was trying to explain.Thank you.
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cfultz3
Guest
'to believe' is active (an action). And if I stand correct, someone said that salvation is not possible without believe. Does it not say that the work of God is 'to believe' in the One He sent?
Seabass: Can you be saved WITHOUT EVER doing ANY TYPE of work at all?
I have a feeling that this is a PREGNANT question? (if there is such a thing)
Why don't you answer it for us Seabass, then we will know where you are coming from on this.
Is this where you are coming from, Seabass?
I have a feeling that this is a PREGNANT question? (if there is such a thing)
Why don't you answer it for us Seabass, then we will know where you are coming from on this.
Is this where you are coming from, Seabass?
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Works would include obedience to the Lord's commands and good works.
Another strawman: where have I ever said I trust in MY works to be saved?
You still do not/will not differentiate between the works in Rom 10:3 where Paul CONTRASTED works of merit/establishing their OWN righteousness from obedience to GOD'S righteousness. THis is a distinction you will never make for it undermines the man-made faith only teaching.
Article:
The Definition of the word Works, Good
Works, Good
The old objection against the doctrine of salvation by grace, "that it does away with the necessity of good works, and lowers" "the sense of their importance (Rom. 6), although it has been" "answered a thousand times, is still alleged by many. They say if" "men are not saved by works, then works are not necessary. If the" most moral of men are saved in the same way as the very chief of "sinners, then good works are of no moment. And more than this," if the grace of God is most clearly displayed in the salvation "of the vilest of men, then the worse men are the better." "The objection has no validity. The gospel of salvation by grace "shows that good works are necessary.
It is true, unchangeably" "true, that without holiness no man shall see the Lord. "Neither" "adulterers, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards" shall" inherit the kingdom of God.
"Works are "good" only when, (1) they spring from the principle of love to God. The moral character of an act is determined by the moral principle that prompts it. Faith and love in the heart are the essential elements of all true obedience. Hence good "works only spring from a believing heart, can only be wrought by" one reconciled to God (Eph. 2:10; James 2:18:22).
(2.) Good works have the glory of God as their object; and
(3) they have the revealed will of God as their only rule (Deut. 12:32; Rev. "22:18, 19)."
"Good works are an expression of gratitude in the believer's "heart (John 14:15, 23; Gal. 5:6).
They are the fruits of the" "Spirit (Titus 2:10-12), and thus spring from grace, which they" illustrate and strengthen in the heart.
"Good works of the most sincere believers are all imperfect, yet like their persons they are accepted through the mediation of "Jesus Christ (Col. 3:17), and so are rewarded; they have no" "merit intrinsically, but are rewarded wholly of grace."
(found here)
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LE...ks,_good//RK=0/RS=17tkXZGBjWHW.ecSEjMgh.Tbdw0-
The Definition of the word Works, Good
Works, Good
The old objection against the doctrine of salvation by grace, "that it does away with the necessity of good works, and lowers" "the sense of their importance (Rom. 6), although it has been" "answered a thousand times, is still alleged by many. They say if" "men are not saved by works, then works are not necessary. If the" most moral of men are saved in the same way as the very chief of "sinners, then good works are of no moment. And more than this," if the grace of God is most clearly displayed in the salvation "of the vilest of men, then the worse men are the better." "The objection has no validity. The gospel of salvation by grace "shows that good works are necessary.
It is true, unchangeably" "true, that without holiness no man shall see the Lord. "Neither" "adulterers, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards" shall" inherit the kingdom of God.
"Works are "good" only when, (1) they spring from the principle of love to God. The moral character of an act is determined by the moral principle that prompts it. Faith and love in the heart are the essential elements of all true obedience. Hence good "works only spring from a believing heart, can only be wrought by" one reconciled to God (Eph. 2:10; James 2:18:22).
(2.) Good works have the glory of God as their object; and
(3) they have the revealed will of God as their only rule (Deut. 12:32; Rev. "22:18, 19)."
"Good works are an expression of gratitude in the believer's "heart (John 14:15, 23; Gal. 5:6).
They are the fruits of the" "Spirit (Titus 2:10-12), and thus spring from grace, which they" illustrate and strengthen in the heart.
"Good works of the most sincere believers are all imperfect, yet like their persons they are accepted through the mediation of "Jesus Christ (Col. 3:17), and so are rewarded; they have no" "merit intrinsically, but are rewarded wholly of grace."
(found here)
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LE...ks,_good//RK=0/RS=17tkXZGBjWHW.ecSEjMgh.Tbdw0-
An issue of this thread is can a Christian maintian his savation WITHOUT those works that produce fruit????
If you answer "no" then you are making those fruit producing works ESSENTIAL, NECESSARY to salvation.
If you answer "yes" you are saying a Christian can maintain his salvation WITHOUT those works that produce fruit contrary to Jn 15:1-10.
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cfultz3
Guest
Hearken unto the Lord upon His path. Doesn't Hebrews say that the ones who fell were the ones with a stubborn heart (opposite of hearken)? Then I suppose, as you do, that if one wants to be lead upon the Good Shepherd's path, one will need to follow His lead.