Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[SeaBass]

John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOVER BELIEVETH in Him, should not perish, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.


(why would Jesus lie to us?)

Ephesians 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 .) Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 .) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Who did the WORK? Jesus DID!

Now, if you want to discuss sanctification or the "fruits" of our salvation that's a different story.

Believing is a work, Jn 6:27-29 and believing is not a work that Christ does FOR me, it is a work that I must do myself. Some faith only proponents will put the work they are suppose to be doing upon Christ to do in trying to find a way to get of doing what they are suppose to be doing.. It is NOT Christ's responsibility to do YOUR work YOU have been given to do.


Lk 17:10 "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."

Those not doing the work given to them by God are derelict in doing their what is their duty to do.

 

[p_rehbein]

Romans 10:4 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth. 9.) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10.) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. 15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace. 16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby; …….19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Colossians 2: 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him; 7) Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9) For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, 10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power;


Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7) That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[SeaBass]

I have always agreed that "good works" are the duty of a Christian.............where the contention comes in is when folks claim it's necessary for salvation.........That is simply untrue. They are confusing salvation with sanctification..........when a believer receives the "indwelling presence" of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit works through them/enables them to do "good works" which accomplish God's plan for that believers life.

You are contradicting yourself!!!!!

On one had you say "I have always agreed that "good works" are the duty of a Christian"

On the other hand you say "where the contention comes in is when folks claim it's necessary for salvation"


So you first say good works are a duty of the Christian, but then you say this duty in doing good works is not necessary for salvation. If it is not necessary then why is it a "duty"??

From Dictionary.refrence.com:

Duty; noun:

1. something that one is expected or required to do by moral or legal obligation. 2. the binding or obligatory force of something that is morally or legally right; moral or legal obligation.
3. an action or task required by a person's position or occupation; function: the duties of a clergyman.


A duty is an obligation, a requirement. You say good works are a duty, an obligation, a requirement, but then you turn around and try to make good works a non-requirement, non-obligation.

Good works are a duty, obligation , requirmenmt for the Christian and cannot maintain his salvation being derelict in doing this required, obligated duty preordained by God, Eph 2:10.

 

[SeaBass]

Then you agree...

Faith is not a work, but belief is.

A thief is not an action, but stealing is.

A believer is not an verb, but believing is.

See where I am going. To say that faith is a work is incorrect, rather active faith is aftermath (if you will) of the work of belief, which is entirely from God.

Faith is a work, 1 Thess 1:3 "work of faith"


Mk 2:5 "When Jesus saw their faith..."

What is it in the context of Mk 2:1-5 that Jesus saw that is called "faith"? WORKS!! The works the men did in bringing the sick man on a bed, removing part of the roof and lower that sick man down to Jesus....these works are called faith.

 

[p_rehbein]

Faith is a work, 1 Thess 1:3 "work of faith"


Mk 2:5 "When Jesus saw their faith..."

What is it in the context of Mk 2:1-5 that Jesus saw that is called "faith"? WORKS!! The works the men did in bringing the sick man on a bed, removing part of the roof and lower that sick man down to Jesus....these works are called faith.

........sigh...........

 

[SeaBass]

SeaBass, you still have failed to address this post. You did a red-herring, and dodged the questions. I will re-post it for you, once again. I want specifics.

Has anyone even considered how arbitrary SeaBass' works based salvation is? Let me explain something to you, and also ask SeaBass something.

If someone accepts Christ and one opportunity(a good work) presents itself and the person does it, is he saved(and dies after)? SeaBass, you will say, "Yes." Right?

Now, if the same person has the opportunity presented to do a good work and doesn't do it, and dies, is he saved? SeaBass, you will answer, "No." That is, if you hold true to your works salvation. If you say, "Yes." then works are arbitrary. If you say, "No" that means that God requires perfection after one is saved (Why did Christ come again?).

Now, lets push this example even further. Say "Joe" accepts the Lord and has one year to live. Through out the year he is presented two opportunities to do good works. He does the first but doesn't do the second work. Is he saved, after the year is up and he dies? If you answer "Yes" then everyone is saved, because we will all unintentionally do a good work, out of who we are and the fruits of the Spirit. If you say, "No, he is not saved" then what you are saying is, again, that God requires perfection. To which I reply, "Why was Jesus sent again?" Oh, and if you say, "Yes" you've also shown that works are arbitrary because he did one and didn't do one.

PS: Is there a ratio of good works to missed good works to be saved? 50/50? 100% good works, with no missed opportunities? Who can do that?

I answered this yesterday.

The issue you keep avoiding is showing a verse that says a NT Christian does not have to do ANY GOOD works yet still be saved.

 

[SeaBass]

That is a gross misrepresentation of what "Faith only" proponents advocate. You cannot quote one person who advocates no works, as a rule for the Christian life because it will be them earning their salvation. On the contrary, you will hear them advocating people to be obedient to the Lord, so that the works they do will stand at the judgement and not be consumed by fire. In doing so, that is being obedient, they will be rewarded for their good works. Their reward is at risk, not their salvation.

No faith proponent says, "A true believer does not do good works otherwise they'd be at risk of earning their salvation." It is you who holds a perspective that is of similar wording, except you say that a true believer works to maintain their salvation. When you put emphasis on works, you take your eyes off Jesus and His completed work. Works are not necessary for salvation, nor the maintenance there of. They are a fruit of who you now are, but by no means are they what keep your salvation secure.

Again, gross misrepresentation.

FAith only says one can be saved WITHOUT works, right?

 

[p_rehbein]

FAith only says one can be saved WITHOUT works, right?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[SeaBass]

Romans 10:4 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth. 9.) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10.) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

No faith only here, this passage REFUTES faith only for it requires BOTH belief AND CONFESSION. THis means the faith only in the owrld can never save the denier of Christ.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. 15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace. 16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby; …….19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

I see no faith only here either. Paul says the Ephesians were saved through faith..so faith saves.


Eph 2:8--------faith>>>>>>>>>saves
Lk 13:,3,5-----repentance>>>>>saves (not perish)
Rom 10:9,0----confession>>>>>saves
1Pet 3:21------baptism>>>>>>>saves

Since ther is just one way tobe saved, no laternatives then the implication of the bible is that a saving faith INCLUDES the obedient works of rpenting, confessing and submitting to baptism. To suggest otherwise to to avoid, ignore the verses that plainly show that repentance, confession and baptism saves. The bible not only says faith repentance, confession and baptism saves, it also says grace, the blood of Christ, the engrafted word, hope alsoall saves Eph 2:8, Rev 1:5; James 1:21; Rom 8:24.

So NONE of these things ALONE saves for it takes ALL them of them working in concert for one to be saved.

Colossians 2: 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him; 7) Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9) For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, 10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power;

Faith only is a false tradition of man that is in total opposition to the bible's/Christ's teachings.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7) That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Again, you fail to make the DISTINCTION between "works we have done" and doing works of God. Works we have done is a reference to works of merit men do to try and earn savlation and not doing God's righteousness per Rom 10:3 which shows a clear distinction between these two works.


Note also in Titus 3:5 that "works we have done" that is, works of merit is CONTRASTED to "washing of regeneration" whichis a reference to water baptism. This means "works we have done" (works of merit) are CONTRASTED to the obedient work God has given to man to submit to water baptism.

 

[SeaBass]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

BenFTW said "No faith proponent says, "A true believer does not do good works otherwise they'd be at risk of earning their salvation."


So is good works necessary for a CHristian to maintain his savlation or not?

You have already said good works are a DUTY of thee true believer. So above, are you now are implying Eph 2:8 says works are NOT a duty of a true believer?

 

[p_rehbein]

Ok, so I'm guessing, that IF NECESSARY, YOU would DEFINE BREATHING AS A WORK?

Goodness....................Tell me EXACTLY IS NOT A WORK? IS THERE ANYTHING UNDER THE HEAVENS THAT IS NOT A WORK in your mind?

You trust in your "works," I'll trust in GRACE.....................let's see what the results are............

 

[p_rehbein]

BenFTW said "No faith proponent says, "A true believer does not do good works otherwise they'd be at risk of earning their salvation."


So is good works necessary for a CHristian to maintain his savlation or not?

You have already said good works are a DUTY of thee true believer. So above, are you now are implying Eph 2:8 says works are NOT a duty of a true believer?

I give you credit for one thing, you are surely a Master at "twisting" the words of those you disagree with.

Works are a FRUIT of Salvation!
I pray one day you understand the difference between Salvation and Sanctification...........

SALVATION.........................fill in here..................SANCTIFICATION

 

[cfultz3]

Belief is a work, Jn 6:27-29. Salvation is not possible without the work of believing.

From the horses on mouth

If one on a deathbed cannot obey the gospel he cannot be saved. Also, do you think God will save a person who spent their entire life living in rebellion and disobedience to Him but that person wants to literally spend his last minute for God?

 

[BenFTW]

From the horses on mouth

He is a walking contradiction. One moment hes professing one thing and another hes professing something else. He also keeps quoting me twisting my words out of its context.

 

[BenFTW]

I answered this yesterday.

The issue you keep avoiding is showing a verse that says a NT Christian does not have to do ANY GOOD works yet still be saved.

I didn't avoid anything. I've answered that in great detail in previous posts. I will not recite them however, because you will then take such text out of its context, leading to a con.

And yet again, DOES EVERYONE SEE? He will not answer the question because he knows it refutes his position and shows the absurdity of his doctrine.

Again, I re-post it for you SeaBass. Answer them, at your own demise.

If someone accepts Christ and one opportunity(a good work) presents itself and the person does it, is he saved(and dies after)? SeaBass, you will say, "Yes." Right?

Now, if the same person has the opportunity presented to do a good work and doesn't do it, and dies, is he saved? SeaBass, you will answer, "No." That is, if you hold true to your works salvation. If you say, "Yes." then works are arbitrary. If you say, "No" that means that God requires perfection after one is saved (Why did Christ come again?).

Now, lets push this example even further. Say "Joe" accepts the Lord and has one year to live. Through out the year he is presented two opportunities to do good works. He does the first but doesn't do the second work. Is he saved, after the year is up and he dies? If you answer "Yes" then everyone is saved, because we will all unintentionally do a good work, out of who we are and the fruits of the Spirit. If you say, "No, he is not saved" then what you are saying is, again, that God requires perfection. To which I reply, "Why was Jesus sent again?" Oh, and if you say, "Yes" you've also shown that works are arbitrary because he did one and didn't do one.

PS: Is there a ratio of good works to missed good works to be saved? 50/50? 100% good works, with no missed opportunities? Who can do that?

 

[Nick1939]

I have always agreed that "good works" are the duty of a Christian.............where the contention comes in is when folks claim it's necessary for salvation.........That is simply untrue. They are confusing salvation with sanctification..........when a believer receives the "indwelling presence" of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit works through them/enables them to do "good works" which accomplish God's plan for that believers life.

I see your confusion how one takes one verse against another, I don't want to argued about it but I just want to this parable of the ten talents,and my question is what happened to the one who had received the ONE talent, was he saved at the END,?

Mat 25:14-30. v 30. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
did this man lost his salvation ? just a thought,...... God bless.......

 

[MsLimpet]

I see your confusion how one takes one verse against another, I don't want to argued about it but I just want to this parable of the ten talents,and my question is what happened to the one who had received the ONE talent, was he saved at the END,?

Mat 25:14-30. v 30. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
did this man lost his salvation ? just a thought,...... God bless.......

Hi, sorry for the interruption but just wanted to post something I have learned....
The meaning of the parable is clear, the lord of the servants is Christ whose coming is the subject under consideration. The servants are his own disciples to who he has intrusted his gospel, His church, and the worship of the church. The conduct of the two faithful servants emphasizes the way in which we are to "watch" as commanded in verse thirteen, the conduct of the slothful servant points out the way that many do in failing to watch. The reckoning with the servants is like the final judgment which takes place when Christ comes again.

Jesus delivers his truths to men according to their abilities. All men do not have the same capacity to understand and use the truths God has revealed to men. According to their capacity to understand and use, he holds them accountable for returns to them. In applying these truths to our own hearts we have fit ourselves to use them for the good of others.

 

[Jabberjaw]

SeaBass, you still have failed to address this post. You did a red-herring, and dodged the questions. I will re-post it for you, once again. I want specifics.

Has anyone even considered how arbitrary SeaBass' works based salvation is? Let me explain something to you, and also ask SeaBass something.

If someone accepts Christ and one opportunity(a good work) presents itself and the person does it, is he saved(and dies after)? SeaBass, you will say, "Yes." Right?

Now, if the same person has the opportunity presented to do a good work and doesn't do it, and dies, is he saved? SeaBass, you will answer, "No." That is, if you hold true to your works salvation. If you say, "Yes." then works are arbitrary. If you say, "No" that means that God requires perfection after one is saved (Why did Christ come again?).

Now, lets push this example even further. Say "Joe" accepts the Lord and has one year to live. Through out the year he is presented two opportunities to do good works. He does the first but doesn't do the second work. Is he saved, after the year is up and he dies? If you answer "Yes" then everyone is saved, because we will all unintentionally do a good work, out of who we are and the fruits of the Spirit. If you say, "No, he is not saved" then what you are saying is, again, that God requires perfection. To which I reply, "Why was Jesus sent again?" Oh, and if you say, "Yes" you've also shown that works are arbitrary because he did one and didn't do one.

PS: Is there a ratio of good works to missed good works to be saved? 50/50? 100% good works, with no missed opportunities? Who can do that?

Your question needs clarification, when you say :

"If someone accepts Christ and one opportunity(a good work) presents itself and the person does it, is he saved(and dies after)? SeaBass, you will say, "Yes." Right?"

what do you mean by "accepts Christ" ?

This must be clarified, as has been stated, even "good works" will not earn you salvation, salvation is found in what is meant by "accepts Christ" and once properly investigated, one will find "accepting Christ" is righteous works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

........sigh...........

I definately think people are wasting their time with this guy. He is so dead set on trying to earn his salvation. no one is going to talk him out of it..

All I can say is, Good luck, if he thinks he will make it that way,, Good luck.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I answered this yesterday.

The issue you keep avoiding is showing a verse that says a NT Christian does not have to do ANY GOOD works yet still be saved.

and we have showed you this 100 times.

A true believer WILL do works.. This your saying they are required does not fit. Because God says they will. If you disagree that God would save someone he knows does not have true faith, and truly repented. Your argument is with God.