Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Elin]

I just looked again, and the bible still associates works with salvation,

Previously addressed. . .

 

[Elin]

Choosing is a work

Not in the NT usage of the word regarding salvation.

 

[Delivery]

Heb 5:9 does not say Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that disobey Him so they can then obey Him. That is an obvious rewrite of the verse.

[SUP]9[/SUP] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So what is obedience to Jesus? Certainly not obedience to the law. Sure, you have to obey Jesus but we have to get into details of what specifically we have to obey, otherwise some people will construe that to mean obey the 10 commandments or the law or a multitude of other commandments.

[SUP]29[/SUP] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The work of God is to believe in Jesus, Faith only, to be saved. Faith alone saves you, that's why faith alone is the work of God. You are fulfilling all the law of God by believing in Jesus. You are obeying Jesus by believing in Him.

 

[Elin]

Wrong doing does not save....right doing does save.

Nope. . . . . .

 

[SeaBass]

Quote it all you want you do not comprehend it. You must take 2 Corinthians 5:21 with Romans 10:3 but then you are too busy telling God what He must accept and what He must not accept.

Your argument is with God not with me. You still do not have the doctrine regarding the Holy Spirit correct so you positively cannot understand the scriptures beyond those that teach you how to be saved. The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who perish.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

2 Cor 5:21 does not contradict Rom 10:3.

2 Cor 5:21 says those that are IN HIM are made the righteousness of God. How does one get "IN HIM"? BY submitting to the will of God and not doing his own righteousness Rom 10:3.

 

[Elin]

It is totally Biblical for a person to be against obedience to God as the source of the gift of salvation (Eph 2:8-9).
It is not Biblical to be against obedience as the result of the gift of saving faith, in the process of sanctification by the Holy Spirit.

Likewise, those in the New Covenant are not under the OT Mosaic regulations.
They are under the New Covenant Law of Christ (Mt 22:37-40; 1Co 9:20-21; Gal 6:2; Jas 2:8;
Ro 13: 8, 9, 10).

Incredible.

Precisely. . .

Heb 5:9 Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that disobey Him......You rewite this verse to fit your theology..

Setting the word of God against itself is ipso facto proof one does not understand it.

 

[Str8aero]

I think a study of James tells us that our salvation is not secured by works but it is demonstrated by works!

 

[SeaBass]

you should read more.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” [SUP]29 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

My believe (faith) is not my work. it is Gods work.

They asked Jesus what shall WE DO that WE WORK the works of God? why did not Jesus answer their question with "do no works" or "do ot owrks for God will do all the work for you"?

Instead Jesus answered their question by giving them a work to do, the work of believing.
God is not lost therefore God has to do the work of believing to be saved.

 

[Delivery]

Some here are saying God will save, perfect, sanctify those that deny Him. That one does not have to do the work of confessing Christ for God will go ahead and save, perfect and sanctify those that deny Christ.

Who is saying that? You have to confess Christ as your Lord and Saviour, then He comes into your life and washes you clean of all your sins and gives you His free gift of everlasting life without you doing any works or good deeds to deserve it.

 

[SeaBass]

The straw man of the truncated gospel. . .

Are the ones that entering the kingdom the ones that DOETH (present tense) the will of God or the ones that DOETH NOT the will of God?

 

[SeaBass]

a man spiritually dead can DO NOTHING FOR GOD. They are DEAD.

I gave an example from Acts 2 of spiritually dead men listening, understanding and responding to the gospel sermon preached to them.

Another example? Acts 10:2,22 Cornelius was lost, spiritually dead yet he feared God, gave alms to the people and was a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews,

 

[notuptome]

Heb 5:9 does not say Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that disobey Him so they can then obey Him. That is an obvious rewrite of the verse.

The only thing God seeks is that you should trust completely in Christ. You disobey God when you frustrate the gospel by making eternal life contingent upon things that cannot contribute to salvation.

The greatest difference between Christianity and the worlds religions is Christianity is a religion its done while the rest are still busy attempting to do. Christ has done it all. Nothing can be added. It is a gift an enormous gift but a gift given through Gods love for His creation.

It's all about grace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Elin]

Yes.

Heb 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."

Heb 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,"

Abraham's faith would have been dead if it did not have obedience. If Abraham had faith only, he would not have done the work of either leaving his land house and kindred nor the work of offering Issac and therefore could not be an heir to those promises.

If you knew the OT better, you would know that you got the cart (Ge 22) before the horse (Ge 15),
and then you might understand James correctly.

 

[notuptome]

2 Cor 5:21 does not contradict Rom 10:3.

2 Cor 5:21 says those that are IN HIM are made the righteousness of God. How does one get "IN HIM"? BY submitting to the will of God and not doing his own righteousness Rom 10:3.

This illustrates the point. You see contradiction where you need to see harmony. This is where you demonstrate again and again that absent the Holy Spirit you cannot know the truth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Delivery]

They asked Jesus what shall WE DO that WE WORK the works of God? why did not Jesus answer their question with "do no works" or "do ot owrks for God will do all the work for you"?

Instead Jesus answered their question by giving them a work to do, the work of believing.
God is not lost therefore God has to do the work of believing to be saved.

Believing is not a "work". When the scriptures talk about works for your Salvation it's referring to doing good deeds and/or obeying the law, and /or obeying a bunch of rules and regulations, etc. in order to deserve Salvation. Nobody can deserve Salvation no matter how obedient to the law and the rules they are. So why don't you quit going about to establish your own righteousness and submit yourself unto the righteousness of God instead, by simply believing that only God can save you through Faith in Jesus. You can't save yourself by obeying the law.

 

[SeaBass]

You've got the natural physical order down right.


But the spiritual order, not so much.

Righteousness/justification is a gift (Ro 5:17).

Righteousness/sanctification is by the obedience of faith through the grace of the Holy Spirit.

Your understanding of NT righteousness remains truncated.

You are still trying to create the impossible in trying to make one a slave to righteousness when he has never done any righteousness.

Rom 5:17 does not say the gift of righteousness is given to men UNCONDITIONALLY. You assume that it is.

 

[Elin]

Setting the word of God against itself ipso facto proves one does not understand it.

Faith only is in contrast/total opposite to what the bible teaches about salvation.

Previously addressed. . .above.

 

[Elin]

.....and that old straw man gets brought out of the closet that accuses me of doing 'self righteousness' when time and again I have quoted Rom 10:3 that proves one cannot be saved by doing his OWN righteousness but is saved by submitting/obeying GOD'S righteousness.....


This is one straw man that will not die.

Kinda' like faith is a gift in that God allows us to have it. . .

and like my paycheck is a gift in that my boss allows me to have it.

 

[Elin]

Apples to oranges.

Did God owe you salvation like you were owed your paycheck?

Duh. . .that's why salvation is a gift, and my paycheck is not. . .

 

[SeaBass]

[SUP]3[/SUP]For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

So what does it mean to go about and establish ones own righteousness, Verses submitting themselves to God's righteousness?

The next verse gives a hint:[SUP]4[/SUP]For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The ones going about to establish their own righteousness are those who believe they are saved by works, by keeping the law of Moses. If you say your own works and goodness and ability to obey the commandments and to keep the law are what saves you, then you are going about trying establish your own righteousness. But the scriptures say just the opposite. Christ is the end of the law for those who believe.

[SUP]8[/SUP] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[SUP]9[/SUP] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Your righteous ability to obey the law and the rules is your own righteousness, not God's. God's righteousness is to have total faith in the Lord's love and care for you and forgiveness for your sins without doing any works to deserve it.

In the context of Rom 10, the Jews were lost for they went about doing 'their own thing" instead of submitting to God's righteous commands. The Jews sometimes set God's commands aside replacing God's commands with their own traditions.


Rom 10:3 metions TWO different works:
1) doing ones OWN righteousness
2) doing GOD's righteouness

Faith only advocates are wrong when they claim AL works are alike and no works saves for this one verse cites TWO DIFFERENT works where one did not save the Jews yet the other work in submitting to God's command would have saved them.

Some faith only advocates here refuse to understand that there IS a difference between one doing his OWN righteousness and one doing GOD'S righteousness.