Salvation

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E

enochson

Guest
#41
Thank you for all responses - I have lots of reading and studying to do to be able to help my friend with this. I was directed to these verses too... Any additional thoughts?

19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
It's about adam and eve and then what was past down
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,612
274
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#42
The atonement was sufficient for the whole world, but the promise of salvation is only given to those who are in the covenant of promise, whose salvation is secured by the work of Christ. It did not thus make salvation merely a possibility, it secured the salvation for God's people. Amen.
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#43
Now Avinu, of the "MANY" that Christ died for, are these all of the "FEW" who finds life? Or are the "MANY" in fact, are the same "MANY" who go in by way of destruction?
I know you were not speaking to me and I apologize for butting in.

That "many" is those who accept Jesus as their Messiah., He died for all, but all has not accepted Him.

They who do not accept Him and continue to wilfully sin, neither accept Him as their atoning sacrifice. In fact, there remains no more sacrifice for thier sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Heb 10:27-28).
 
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Israel

Guest
#44
The shedding of blood on the cross did not save all men but provided redemption for all men through an unlimited atonement. It is the desire of God that all men might be saved (1Tim 2:3-5), who is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance (2Pt 3:9). The desire of God and God's willingness to save all men could not take place without an unlimited atonement. Do we make God, the cross and the blood of Christ a respecter of person's in forgiving and cleansing the sins of men? Is not reconciliation to God available to all sinners by faith in Christ? Was not God in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself by not imputing their sins unto them (2Cor 5:18-20). To preach a limited atonement is to preach a gospel that lacks integrity and one that shows partiality and that is thinking and judging the cross as an evil thing and not as an act of mercy provided by the Son for all men.

The word 'many' is inclusive and not exclusive and means 'once and for all' and not as some understand it. To understand this word and relate it to a limited atonement provided by the death and blood of Christ is gross negligence on the students part, who has not considered the whole counsel of God and the foundation of the Lamb being slain and taking away the sins of the world (1Jn 1:29).
I know you were not speaking to me and I apologize for butting in.

That "many" is those who accept Jesus as their Messiah., He died for all, but all has not accepted Him.

They who do not accept Him and continue to wilfully sin, neither accept Him as their atoning sacrifice. In fact, there remains no more sacrifice for thier sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Heb 10:27-28).

Hebrews 9:18-22

18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

All the people and all the vessels of the ministry were sprinkled with blood because WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD, THERE IS NO REMISSION. Now of the vessels.

Romans 9:20-24

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#45
Hebrews 9:18-22

18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

All the people and all the vessels of the ministry were sprinkled with blood because WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD, THERE IS NO REMISSION. Now of the vessels.

Romans 9:20-24

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

May i ask what does the things you said have to do with my response, I do not see the connection.
 
May 18, 2011
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#46
Now Avinu, of the "MANY" that Christ died for, are these all of the "FEW" who finds life? Or are the "MANY" in fact, are the same "MANY" who go in by way of destruction?
As much as I would love to get into debate with you Israel, there's no sense beating my head against the wall. LOL I know that you believe that ALL will go to heaven. So with that I tip my hat to you sir, Shalom.
 
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Israel

Guest
#47
May i ask what does the things you said have to do with my response, I do not see the connection.
All are saved by blood and that true remission can only come by the shedding of blood. The verse you used are of those who know of the true Jesus.

When I say that all men are saved by Christ, the thought that comes to most is along the lines of "if we all are saved anyway, then we can do what we want" . For such there remains no sacrifice for sins, but this CANNOT happen! It is God who blinds the eyes and dulls the ears of such a person FOR FEAR of them being saved! It is that type of thinking or mentality that God is destroying.
 
I

Israel

Guest
#48
As much as I would love to get into debate with you Israel, there's no sense beating my head against the wall. LOL I know that you believe that ALL will go to heaven. So with that I tip my hat to you sir, Shalom.

I understand friend. But even without the issue of salvation, a kid is taught the difference between what a few looks like and what many looks like.
 
May 18, 2011
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#49
I understand friend. But even without the issue of salvation, a kid is taught the difference between what a few looks like and what many looks like.
Agreed, but mine was the difference between many and every single one. Nice analogy their.
 
Jun 24, 2010
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#50
All are saved by blood and that true remission can only come by the shedding of blood. The verse you used are of those who know of the true Jesus.

When I say that all men are saved by Christ, the thought that comes to most is along the lines of "if we all are saved anyway, then we can do what we want" . For such there remains no sacrifice for sins, but this CANNOT happen! It is God who blinds the eyes and dulls the ears of such a person FOR FEAR of them being saved! It is that type of thinking or mentality that God is destroying.
Let's make this very, very simple and straight-forward. The blood of Christ was shed for the remission of all sin, which includes all men, for all have sinned. When we believe upon the Son and in the blood that was shed on Calvary, God imputes His righteousness unto us freely through His Son and we are forgiven and cleansed from all sin definitely. After we have been saved by the blood and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto salvation, God begins a work in us and He performs that work until the day of redemption when we get our new glorified bodies. As newly born believers we begin to desire the things of God and begin to lose desire for the things of the flesh. We may give place or make a provision for the flesh but God will not let us continue in any sin without Him intervening through building the believer in the word through edification, discipline, chastisement, scourging or if need be, the sin unto physical death.

We are God's possession and belong to Him because we were bought with a price. If we are carnal and think that we can get away with a little sin now and then, we will find out just how jealous God is concerning those that He has purchased with His own blood. God may allow us to enter into certain areas of sin in our thinking and practice for a time, but only to reveal a trend of sin in our life and He deals with that trend individually through wisdom and the cross. That is between the believer and God and is not to be touched by others through judging or meddling in the affair. Only if God leads us to go to that brother are we to take that step and when we do we go in meekness lest we fall. This is a very solemn issue and sin is God's business not ours and we better be led by God or we can really blow it and cause all kinds of problems that can last for years.
 
I

Israel

Guest
#51
Agreed, but mine was the difference between many and every single one. Nice analogy their.
I'm sure you've read about the kinsman redeemer and Jubilee in the bible. This is the grand model, so to speak for the salvation of all with Israel being the whole world.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#52
All are saved by blood and that true remission can only come by the shedding of blood. The verse you used are of those who know of the true Jesus.

When I say that all men are saved by Christ, the thought that comes to most is along the lines of "if we all are saved anyway, then we can do what we want" . For such there remains no sacrifice for sins, but this CANNOT happen! It is God who blinds the eyes and dulls the ears of such a person FOR FEAR of them being saved! It is that type of thinking or mentality that God is destroying.

Then what is your take of Heb 10:27-28?
 
Jun 24, 2010
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#53
I'm sure you've read about the kinsman redeemer and Jubilee in the bible. This is the grand model, so to speak for the salvation of all with Israel being the whole world.
Are you saying that the kinsman redeemer for Israel is not the same one that we receive redemption and salvation through His blood and the forgiveness of sins, according to His riches of grace (Acts 28:28, Rom 3:29,30, Eph 1:7, Col 1:14)? If He is the same Redeemer for the Gentiles as He is for Israel, then the whole world includes both the Jewish stock as well as the Gentile stock. Remember this one thing, the promise came to Abraham, who was from the Ur of the Chaldees and lived among a pagan domain of Gentile stock and later separated himself through the call of God. Israel really came through Gentile stock through the promise of Isaac. Moses wrote that Abram was a Hebrew in (Gen 14:13), a designated patriarch of the Israelites but was not himself a child of promise, for that would come through Isaac and later Jacob. Abraham is the father of many nations, which includes Ishmael, but only through Isaac and Jacob was Israel called to be a nation set apart.
 
E

enochson

Guest
#54
All are saved by blood and that true remission can only come by the shedding of blood. The verse you used are of those who know of the true Jesus.

When I say that all men are saved by Christ, the thought that comes to most is along the lines of "if we all are saved anyway, then we can do what we want" . For such there remains no sacrifice for sins, but this CANNOT happen! It is God who blinds the eyes and dulls the ears of such a person FOR FEAR of them being saved! It is that type of thinking or mentality that God is destroying.
You know what (*&^# me. Why is it these born agian god loving christian start pouring out about sin and nothing about the glory of God. who teaches the hate thats with in them?
 
Oct 12, 2011
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#55
Then what is your take of Heb 10:27-28?

It is talking about the Judgments of God, on those who have or would trample under foot,
The blood of The Son and counted as nothing.

As Israel said it's "This kind of thinking or mentality" of these, that is being Judged, and being destroyed in and through that Judgment.

For as it is written The carnal mind is the Enemy of God, this is the Adversaries that is being destroyed,
in the person that causes them to think and do things that are contrary to God.

For us who have the Holy Spirit we face this Judgment every time we hear The Word, and are Judged by it. It is continuously being put to death, so that we may put on the mind of Christ.

But for those who do not have this privilege They will face the same Judgment.....

Heb 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment:

But in the infinite Wisdom of Our God and foreknowledge, He knows who would do this and therefore they remain blind, until.

.
 
Oct 12, 2011
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#56
You know what (*&^# me. Why is it these born agian god loving christian start pouring out about sin and nothing about the glory of God. who teaches the hate thats with in them?
Because they've never seen it or experienced it.
 

SweetShelly35

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2012
289
3
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#57
The person would go to hell. Jesus said, you must be born again. He also said to go preach the
good news of Him to all the world. If there was a chance this person could be saved without
hearing of Jesus, then you don't need to tell the whole world. But He said to go tell them.

The next question you'll get is, "How can a God of love send a good person to hell who never
heard?" Hearing about Jesus is no guarantee a person will accept Jesus. If the person asking
isn't saved either, then you could ask, "if you heard and haven't accepted, why do you think
the person in question would accept?"

No matter how virtuous a person is, we all have that sin nature. God can not create a new
heaven and earth, and let that sin nature in. You would be back in the garden of eden
again, and soon, back to where we are now.
IT's True! You must be born again.
 
I

Israel

Guest
#58
Then what is your take of Heb 10:27-28?


To understand these more fully beloved, we will back up a bit.

Hebrews 10:23-28

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)

24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:

25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:


Let us hold fast the profession of our faith that Jesus took away the sins of the world! Before any of us were born, we not having done any good or evil had our sins taken away! This was done SO THAT THE PURPOSE OF ELECTION MAY STAND, not of ANY work but of Him who calls all in the world to life. There is no difference with God as He calls both the Jew and the Gentile. What this means is that the YHWH that raised Moses for the purpose of delivering Israel out of egypt is the SAME YHWH that raised pharaoh to keep them.

So in knowing this let us provoke unto one another love which is patient and long-suffering. LOVE COVERS SINS! And we should know this by nature!! If not for love, what would we do with our family members or our spouses or lovers when they transgress against us?love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


Not forsaking eachother according to works, but exhorting one another in our various assemblies.

Now if we willfully sin having received this knowledge, there remains no sacrifice for sins. How can I be killed by something that was taken away before I was born? ALL MANNER OF SIN WILL BE FORGIVEN among men. This is the Spirit of truth but blasphemy of the Spirit is not forgiven. What does that mean? Saying that any sin CANNOT be forgiven! It is ALWAYS lawful to do good, even to those who do you evil! And there is but ONE who is good!



He that despised Moses law died without mercy. No flesh is justified by the works of the law whether it is of good or evil. We all die according to it and as a famous rapper said in a song, even Jesus was stoned before receiving the throne!
 
D

dishchat

Guest
#59
Last night I was asked a question I was not able to answer so I need your help. The question posed to me is this:

If someone is born in a place that never hears about God,Christianity or Jesus Christ can they be saved? This person grew up and lived a life that was good and virtuous - what happens to them after their existence on earth has ended?

Can you help me answer this please!!
I think God is good and mercy unto those who had never hear His word and knew nothing about God because any person can't Have faith in God unless God Himself put faith in him to believe [ Ephesians ch 2 vs 5,6] But those person haven't heard of God all there lives.So they haven't faith to be saved. May be God wil have mercy for them because of their good works and morality. God only can judge them; Not us.